You've activated my trap card...

[Amethyst]

 

...which cancels trap cards.

 

Lowbrow yugioh memes aside, we've got a minor update to the community expectations this evening, and as you might already have guessed, it pertains to the usage of the word 'trap' as referring to the trope of characters who supposedly 'trick' others into assuming something based on a feminine presentation.

 

For the past while, we allowed this word to describe fictional characters only as an archetype, but as language and its contexts change, so must we. The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation now officially considers the term a slur, and it's been looked down on in more and more communities, and for good reason, given that it has no shortage of problematic implications, many of which have been harmful for trans individuals even in fictional contexts.

Naturally, in striving to create a community where all kinds of people can feel accepted, we'll be keeping pace with this change.

 

So, as of this post, any usage of the word in reference to real or fictional persons will be considered as a violation of rule 4 (and it has accordingly been added to the incomplete guide list on it).

Thank you all for understanding, and for working with us to make this place the best it can be for everyone~

[Commander]

I must really be out of the loop as my brain is not wrapping my head around this. Not really on the decision, but kind of how it wasn't considered a slur to begin with. Then again I've only seen the term be used with the Star Wars line just for a funny meme reaction to stuff and the archtype. Can't say I really agree with this change, but I'm not going to raise hell over it.

[Monochrome_Complex]

As a guilty gear fan, I was soooo aware of the meme in regards to the ever lovable Bridget. I used to think of it as simply a comedic meme but I wasn't aware of its offensive connotations until corrected on another forum. I thought it was an overreaction at the time(since I never saw it used hatefully just as a meme usually) but then after hearing a story in the news about a guy who stabbed his date like 100 times when he found out they were trans yeah I see why in such a context it's messed up.  I don't think most people are trying to be dicks when using it but it's something that just has some really bad implications even if they aren't necessarily intended. Shouldn't be hard to cut out  one's vocabulary, honestly.

[GenEric]

wow my fuckup updated the rules

yay

[Ojama Yellow]

once upon a time, describing someone as a "trap" was considered derogatory language on reborn. then, not so long after, it apparently ceased being that for reasons unknown.

 

kind of felt like a gray area the past few years so I for one welcome the decisive answer.

[Felicity]

More and more i'm finding its just not worth clinging to a phrase or word i'd casually use because the word itself actually has some alternate meaning somewhere else on the web of the internet that just doesn't fly.

 

To the people who are probably tutting about the choice in backchannels or thinking about writing up a long-winded post about why you should be allowed to use the one word with that context, maybe ask yourself how much it really matters when put up against people being able to feel ok about the community they're in.

 

This from the guy who raised a stank years ago about being able to make gratuitous dick jokes in lobby a few years ago.

[Chrixai]

Me personally, I can respect this rule. I never really have any problem with this matter. Best to make everyone feel welcome when they come to this website. 

[Skeleton]

 

it was about time

[Josef]

I agree with the decision, because in this context, the word "trap" is clearly used to suggest, that trans-individuals are fake/undesirable/unwanted people who just try to fool others for sexual reasons. Im honestly surprised that this wasn't banned earlier around here. 

[ShadeStrider]

I... really don’t agree with this. Still feels like an overreaction by people who can’t understand Context. Just like the R word. Feels like far too politically correct censorship.

 

Not going to start a fuss over this, and I’ll follow the new rule. But The N word, I can understand. It has no reason other than to be derogatory. This... not so much.

 

I, however, hope this rule never shows up on Gamefaqs or Reddit. I’ll leave my “offensive/the human race is weak nowadays” posts for those communities.

 

I genuinely hope that a commonly used term that’s eventually gonna be considered derogatory against people of Asian descent comes up. Then I can complain about the censorship of that word safely, since I’m a person of Asian descent.

 

So, what’s the new word we’re gonna use? Eventually that will get banned as well, and the cycle will continue.

 

[Gaunt]

The real question is: can we use synonyms (like ambush or lure) to refer to fictional characters previosly described by that word or are those banned as well? Seriosly i never thought of the term as "offensive" (or seen it used as such) but hey rules are rules

[Josef]

I think its the context that matters. The word "trap" itself isn't a slur, as long as its not referring to a person being transgender. Its the hidden meaning behind it that only applies in this specific case which is offensive. And that hidden meaning in this case is the suggestion, that trans-people are trying to deceit or trick other people into a sexual relationship by pretending to be of another sex than they are. The same would of course apply to other words if they ever got a derived and derogatory meaning like this. If there was ever such a case for people of Asian descent, then yes, I think that the same should go for that word and it shouldn't be used in such a context anymore. 

Which is why, of course, any other way of suggesting that trans people are simply pretending to be something they aren't in order to get something they want on the cost of another persons gullibility should be seen as an offense as well. No matter the words used.

[Commander]

@Josef I don't quite think that's right. Calling someone a trap was already against policy it seems which is the whole respect thing. It's calling fictional characters like Astolfo from Fate a trap that was added to this category.

 

Basically you aren't allowed to use this word with the given context for anything from what I'm understanding. Like if I wasn't explaining what it means I would be violating the rules.

 

And as for what Gaunt said there's no rule or policy against calling these things by a synonym since it does not violate any rules or policy. At least that's my understanding unless there's some clarification or the policy gets changed.

[Tacos]

I, for one, am glad to see this.  As someone who admittedly used to make occasional jokes with friends about this (though really only if other people started joking about it first), I was glad that as I came to know more people in the trans community and people who identify strongly as allies as well, I was educated about the damaging effects of these jokes and the terrible stigmas associated.  Part of life is the personal growth of discovering new perspectives to different topics and learning about the different issues plaguing those of different identities and cultures.  For those who used to make jokes and feel as if their speech is going to be incredibly censored, I ask that you, instead of expressing your annoyance or frustration immediately, take the time to have a discussion with someone who strongly opposes your position or do some research on how these jokes affect trans people, most specifically those who are MtF.  Perhaps weigh the importance of being able to make a joke or use a word in certain contexts over the importance of people of a marginalized group feeling safe.  Yes, most people understand that the word's use in the context of jokes isn't particularly the same as calling someone by that name and therefore isn't particularly targeting someone, but what it does do is contribute to a stigma that people with genitalia differing from their outwardly presenting gender are undesirable and/or demonizes them by implying they wish to deceive others.  In my opinion, if me simply removing a word from my vocabulary in certain contexts has the contribution of decreasing the stigma against trans people and by association, easing their already absurdly plentiful and ridiculous struggles by even a fraction of a percent, I'll gladly do so. 

19 hours ago, ShadeStrider said:

I... really don’t agree with this. Still feels like an overreaction by people who can’t understand Context. Just like the R word. Feels like far too politically correct censorship.

 

Not going to start a fuss over this, and I’ll follow the new rule. But The N word, I can understand. It has no reason other than to be derogatory. This... not so much.

 

I, however, hope this rule never shows up on Gamefaqs or Reddit. I’ll leave my “offensive/the human race is weak nowadays” posts for those communities.

 

I genuinely hope that a commonly used term that’s eventually gonna be considered derogatory against people of Asian descent comes up. Then I can complain about the censorship of that word safely, since I’m a person of Asian descent.

 

So, what’s the new word we’re gonna use? Eventually that will get banned as well, and the cycle will continue.

 

There are derogatory words targeted towards those of asian descent.  A simple google search would find you results on that.  And perhaps instead of asking "what word we're gonna use," perhaps consider the alternative of not making jokes at the expense of marginalized groups.  I hope that approach may have more fulfilling results for you.

14 hours ago, Gaunt said:

The real question is: can we use synonyms (like ambush or lure) to refer to fictional characters previosly described by that word or are those banned as well? Seriosly i never thought of the term as "offensive" (or seen it used as such) but hey rules are rules

Don't take my word for it since I'm not a staff member, but I think it would be safe to say those words in those contexts won't fly either.  From the experience of being the person who originally wrote up the post regarding rule 4, we tried to make it clear that variations of some of the listed words were considered bad as well, considering we all know the words themselves aren't dangerous, but rather their societal connotations.  Of course these words aren't entirely banned as they are words that didn't originally begin as derogatory terms, but I'd assume that in the specific context, they'd also be frowned upon.

[ShadeStrider]

25 minutes ago, Tacos said:

 

There are derogatory words targeted towards those of asian descent.  A simple google search would find you results on that.  

 

2

2

Think you may have misread my post. I understand there are derogatory words targeted at Asians, however, how many of those slurs are used in everyday language? I was talking about words that we used as insults commonly, like the R-word before people started cracking down on it. 

 

[ZEL]

1 hour ago, ShadeStrider said:

I was talking about words that we used as insults commonly, like the R-word before people started cracking down on it.

There are plenty of words you can use as a substitute in any given situation you'd want to use the R-word for.
Is your determination to use this specific word really more important than the feelings of people who have had this word used against them in a discriminatory manner?
The r-word has a history of being used as a slur, that's the entire reason it came to be used as an insult. People began to use the r-word to insult others for much the same reason they use "gay" as an insult - it's in direct context to the group of people it is applied to. The insult is meant to be the comparison to those people.

Just because the word has rooted itself so firmly in people's vocabulary that some of them don't realize how it originated doesn't mean it's suddenly no longer a slur. Not when it is still commonly used as a slur against the very same demographic.
Words do oftentimes change meanings over time, but the r-word is still used in the exact same context that made it popular as an insult.

[ShadeStrider]

7 minutes ago, ZEL said:

There are plenty of words you can use as a substitute in any given situation you'd want to use the R-word for.
Is your determination to use this specific word really more important than the feelings of people who have had this word used against them in a discriminatory manner?
The r-word has a history of being used as a slur, that's the entire reason it came to be used as an insult. People began to use the r-word to insult others for much the same reason they use "gay" as an insult - it's in direct context to the group of people it is applied to. The insult is meant to be the comparison to those people.

Just because the word has rooted itself so firmly in people's vocabulary that some of them don't realize how it originated doesn't mean it's suddenly no longer a slur. Not when it is still commonly used as a slur against the very same demographic.
Words do oftentimes change meanings over time, but the r-word is still used in the exact same context that made it popular as an insult.

Fair enough.

 

I still ultimately disagree with this decision, but here I am, raising hell over it.

 

Still following this rule, but I think it is important to assert that my mind has not been changed.

[Commander]

9 hours ago, ShadeStrider said:

I still ultimately disagree with this decision, but here I am, raising hell over it.

 

Still following this rule, but I think it is important to assert that my mind has not been changed.

If a word has negative connotation it's usually better to outright ban the word than allow for the few instances where it can be used and keep track of that. The N word is probably the best kind of example. I mean it's much easier to say "You can't say retarded" then to deal with giving warning points when one person uses the word one way and another uses it a different way. On the flip side, it does pretty much completely remove all discussion the word was used for. It just ain't worth the effort worrying about getting a warning point or writing out something much longer so other people understand what you're talking about.

[Sayaman]

This feels like an attempt to put a bandage on a problem just for the sake of it. To fill their "we did something as a community" quota. Censoring peoples way to express themselves is never a good tactic to get them to your side. Believe me, if someone doesnt like trans people he will find a million ways to say it or act on it. Calling the word a "slur", that to my knowledge at least, was never used as nothing more than a silly joke seems shallow to me. And Commander i disagree thats its always  better to ban words if they can be used negatively. In most cases you pretty much give them more power that way and make them more harmful that they originally ever were. Context is what matters most of the time.

[ZEL]

1 hour ago, Sayaman said:

Believe me, if someone doesnt like trans people he will find a million ways to say it or act on it. Calling the word a "slur", that to my knowledge at least, was never used as nothing more than a silly joke seems shallow to me.

But see, here's two things: First, just because people can make up new ways of insulting us doesn't mean we should have to tolerate existing ones. Second, not everyone who uses slurs necessarily realizes the real implications of what they're saying. And that's where you step in and encourage them to think about it a little.

Unfortunately words don't always keep their original meanings, and the fact of the matter is that this term can be and is used to insult trans people.
The general public isn't anywhere close enough to a point of acceptance of trans people that we are safe from constantly being made the butt end of hurtful jokes. And comparing us to this particular trope is such a joke, and it's not very funny when so many trans women constantly face the very real fear of being accused of deception and trickery. (And no, not just by men, either, as is demonstrated by the existence of trans-exclusionary radical feminists, whose firm opinion is that trans women are men trying to infiltrate women's spaces.)
It's cool if your experience so far has been that people manage to draw a respectful boundary and don't apply this word in ways it should not - I'm glad you seem to keep the right company. Unfortunately that experience is far from universal. (Read: God, I wish that were me.)

[Commander]

I'm just going to clear something up: transgender and trap are two entirely different things. Transgender is (do not crucify me on this) identifying themselves as the opposite gender from their born sex. A trap (or at least in the context it's now getting banned from) is a fictional character that identifies as the opposite gender they give the appearance of, usually male appearing as a female. Reverse Trap is the female counterpart of this. Calling a trans person a trap is incorrect and flat out wrong.

 

You have never been allowed to call anyone on here a trap as in that context it's a slur unless it falls under a niche condition. I mean calling me a trap for using female animu girls as profile pics I guess would be correct as it's easy to presume I'm female while I'm actually male. I identify as a male. Don't do that though. I mean I wouldn't be bothered, but someone else might be. Trans people are called traps many times as their definitions are quite similar and it is a means to call them out in a negative way as a slur. If you think you were allowed to do this in the first place, then you may want to reread the OP. You weren't. Even if this change gets revoked you wouldn't be allowed to. I just want to clear that one up since that's what a lot of the discussion is.

 

We jump back to fiction now. Is calling something fictional a trap derogatory language? You can interpret this both ways. Most traps in fiction don't fit the definition of deceiving someone as it's not their intention, but some actually do. Honestly it's just the best word to describe the characters which there have been debates what else they can be called. Like full on debates. You can't use transgender as they identify as their sex. I guess you could use transvestite but that doesn't quite encompass what the character was written out as. Gonna stop there as you probably get the idea. Though using these terms even correctly could be insulting towards people who are called traps as a slur. Again, the N-word is the best example. Just imagine someone as a black business male going up to a black business partner and greeting them with "My ninja!" Just think about how the other professionals nearby would feel about this exchange. I don't know if I would get a warning point for saying it in a hypothetical situation otherwise I would. That's kind of why it's getting banned in a situation it wouldn't be under derogatory language. Better to avoid the situation altogether then risk people feeling very uncomfortable, I suppose.

 

Do I agree with it? No. Do I understand it? Yes. I'm not going to be fighting for it to be removed. If you want to change my opinion on it, explain the negative effects of people calling fictional characters traps to you and not people calling you that word. I'm not saying that as a means to ridicule either. There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable or hating people calling fiction characters traps. I'm merely saying that saying things I agree upon isn't going to change my stance. Though my stance doesn't really matter since I merely disagree and not invoking it be removed.

[Chase]

It's a rule I can respect - and past me was all about overenforcement as opposed to inaction in order to make the community a better place.

 

Do I think people that use this word in the context of a fictional character are trying to be inherently vicious? From what I've seen in various communities where this would be the case - no.

 

Do I think people should ever call other, actual PEOPLE that? That's a swift warning from me in the past, because the context is indeed so vastly different. People....I guess have been liable (because I haven't ever seen this happen personally, thank goodness) of ignorantly assuming why a person makes the decisions they do. The usage of the word in the context of a fictional character is pointed -usually- because the character designer intended for someone to appear the opposite gender than they really are for shock value at the very least. I don't think transgender individuals have such a goal in mind when identifying as transgender or going through transition.

---

 

The real question should be - is this too much of an ask for us as community members? That answer should be a resounding no. All it amounts to at the end of the day is a different set of keystrokes. Perhaps a few more keys than you used in the past to convey the idea, but at least you endeavor to not rob someone of their comfort while here.

[MVr]

It's not a word I use frequently (in any context) but I don't like not being allowed to. Am I supposed to stop using the word "wheel" for example if someone starts calling obese people wheels? It's plainly stupid. Stop destroying my completely innocent words, I like them.

Seriously, being overly sensitive can be much worse than actually abusing people. I don't care much about anything a person trying to insult me could say but I hate being censored.

I'm white male hetero human and don't mind being called any of those words since they simply describe me.

[Godot]

Nothing says that you cannot use the word trap to describe actual traps.  The following examples are fine.

 

”I was playing Pokémon Reborn and I fell for the Nuzleaf trap.  How do I escape it?”

 

”My favorite character in Smash is Snake! I enjoy using his traps!”

 

”I am having issues in my life and I feel trapped and scared.”

 

That is using the word like how it was originally intended and that’s fine.  Whats not ok is something like;

 

”I was talking to this cute girl, and I was going to ask her out, but I found out that she was a trap!”

 

”I used to think Naoto in Persona was a cool guy, but then I found out that it was a trap! lol”

 

Those statements aren’t using the word in an innocent way but are instead using it as a slur to insult those who went through a transgender process in their life.  Being a constant target for bullying and oppression is going beyond someone simply being “sensitive”.

 

It’s also worth noting that saying that you aren’t offended by identifying as a White Male Hetro Human doesn’t prove any points.  If anything it states that you aren’t a target of any popular derogatory slurs.  It’s not nearly as a scary world for a Straight White Guy as it is for for some who is, let’s say, a Gay Black Furry, a transgender Latino/a, or a mentally handicap Native American.  

 

Just because a person doesn’t find something offensive, doesn’t mean it’s not.  In our community we value the importance of the concept of respect.  That is why it is and will forever be, Rule 1.  

[Commander]

@MVr I'll just give you some advice: yelling out against it is talking into the void. These changes happen once every few months so it's very unlikely it's going to be changed.