Rejuvenation and Reborn comparison (spoilers)

[Cyphre]

Since Reborn is closing to an end, and Rejuvenation now also took form and it's plot now going somewhere, i thought it could be interesting to compare those 2 games that are so similar, but so different. The games that, in my personal opinion, raised the bar for the Pokemon fan games and official releases definetly can take a lot from them (though they never will). 
I personally replayed both of them more times than i care to admit and there are 20-something years of playing games and JRPG's almost every day behind me, so i thought to share my opinion, just as something to read and discuss or maybe for devs to even take note. 
I will try to be as spoiler-free as i can, but obviously, SPOILERS. 

 1) The story and it's pacing. This is the first thing that kinda differentiate those games from all the rest, so i would like to focus on it first.

 Now, Reborn story is pretty strong on it's own, but it does have it's weaknesses. In short, In Reborn we are just a trainer, that arrived in a new region to kick ass and call names, but is quickly stuck in the vortex of events bigger than him, leading to a confrontation with an evil team. It introduces new conflicts and characters very organically, they almost never feel forced into the story (*cough* Luna), however the gym battles mostly felt a bit forced, since it's our primary goal, and everything regarding Team Meteor and Arceus cult is just a side trip for our character. Thankfully, the story flow and all the intrigue about all the events during the course of the story mask the barebones general plot structure really well. One other thing, Reborn feels very "fragmented" story-wise, if that makes sense, like it got those clear arcs, that start and end in a certain area with certain characters, that just can be gone for ages. The few choices that are in Reborn, like with Taka or ZEL or even in the cages, where you are forced to fight your friends, feel meaningful and made by your own will.

 Comparing this to Rejuvenation, it's protagonist stakes are much more personal, be it revenge, desire to know the truth of the events, or what is actually happening there. For out protagonist gathering badges is something that happens naturally during the course of events, and the story is driven by itself without a badge-crutch. Rejuvenation also considerably improved the pacing and traversing the region feels incredibly smooth, you are moving along with the story in a true flow without many stops, in every place you go a lot of events happen, characters appear and reappear and all make an impact on the story. However Rejuvenation, in my opinion, got 2 problems from the storytelling perspective. First one is time travel. Stories with time travel very rarely work, and this one is not an exception, the concept alone creates so many plotholes you cannot count and creates more questions the game can answer, also making it the cheapest plot device. Second one is that the much bigger focus on the story actually makes the main protagonist much less important, like you are not in control of events. Most of the time you only watch things unfold as a spectator, or because someone else doing something and you are tagging along. In contrast, Reborn's protag is what drives the events and make things happen. 

This is a very close one, however i pick Rejuvenation as a winner since it got much cleaner structure, much better eventing and flow of the story, also a better overall purpose and a direction. 

2) The characters

Hoo boy, now this is a tough one. Supportive cast and rivals and evil team are pretty amazing in both games, i would argue even the best part of both games. 

The Reborn rivals, Cain, Fern and Victoria are all great. We got a humorous troubled dude who swings both ways, an absolute flaming asshole and a kind and strong girl, torn up by her responsibilities. All of them influence the story and protagonist in major ways and push them in the moments of need. Gym leaders each have their continuing story arcs, fleshed out personalities and feel absolutely alive, the writing of their dialogue is absolutely the best. Ciel and Samson banter, mysterious fourth-wall-breaking Radomus, troubles of Amaria and Titania, all of the leaders are fantastic. All of them. Only when it comes to the evil team things fall apart, because while Team Meteor's admin doing great job and even more or less destroyed the city, ZEL, Taka and Solaris are all well written admins, however so far Lin is absolute garbage as a big bad villain. She just appears out of nowhere for no reason, appears to be sorta omnipotent and act as edgy as a character can. So far there was basically no build up, no connection to her, no nothing. 

Rejuvenation's characters are incredibly strong in it's own right, and while Reborn finds it's foundation in separate characters, Rejuvenation combines all of the main characters into one acting main group, which reshuffles it's roster from time to time during the course of the events. It keeps the characters interacting with each others, constantly opening new sides of them, which opens entire new dimensions of them. Leaders are probably the best out of any pokemon game period, well woven into the story and the events, all of them are compelling characters, playing their own role in the events. Shoutout to Kenneth, probably my favorite leader. The evil (?) Team Xen is a much better overall villain, however in this case situation is exactly backwards. Madame X is a fantastic leader, mysterious, strong, willful, having great interactions with heroes, giving us a heroes to both hate her and not hate her. I like all of the admins, Zetta, Geara, Neved, Anastasia, and Madelis, however all of the feel like they are playing second banana, it's clear that they all have their own agenda, stories to tell and reasons to be there, but after 1-2 confrontations they dissapear for tens of hours, in fact, for the second half of the game (GDC) they just pass the torch to the Bladestar, that dont even have memorable admins so far. While maybe it's not exactly fair to judge them while the game is still unfinished, in 100+ hours of playtime they could play a little bigger role in confrontations. 

In fact, i have to make it a draw here. Both games have similar strenghts and shortcomings, but the characters in both are phenomenal nonetheless. 

3) Dungeons

Now, let me explain. There are clear potions of the pure gameplay in both Reborn and Rejuv, be those ruins, mountains, caves, deserts, forests, e.t.c. Since those often take a lot of time, they deserve comparison too. 

This is, in my opinion, THE single biggest Reborn weakness. In it, those dungeons are nothing but those - dungeons. A huge open spaces with wild pokemon, some puzzles and nothing interesting happening. The subway is not fun, the forest is not fun, the desert is ASS even with repels, the mountains are ass, the dark valley with luna is not fun, e.t.c. They dont offer anything interesting or compelling and most often dont have any story significance at all, and worst of all, they overstay their welcome by a huge margin. They are not without their own benefits, like smart puzzles and clever usage of certain pokemon abilities to traverse certain dungeons, but overall the design is just bad. 

Rejuvenation deals with that so much better. Every dungeon you encounter is a place of some event, very major or not, and even some of the least eventful were greatly updated, like the additional dialogue in the water cave. Every route and dungeon keeps the story going, creating new events, giving new stuff and impressions, and even dreaded Valor mountain is great. it feels like this huge challenge you worked SO HARD for, and it basically serves as a final dungeon of a disc 1, if you know what i mean. It got this sense of finality of the current conflict, that makes you push forward no matter what. The other good point is they dont overstay their welcome and keep them relatively short and refreshing. 

Rejuvenation destroys Reborn in this department without any chances of comeback. 

4) Difficulty

Now, this is part of why we love Reborn and Rejuv, the battles are actually challenging and brutal. 

Reborn kick you in the balls and then spits on you. The gym leaders are prime difficulty spikes because of their fields, and can feel unfair at times. Especially in double battles, where enemy teams designed for this one double fight with you, instead of being an all-rounder pokemon setup. Overall it greatly challenges the player, forcing them to git gud and think of ways to change the field of counter the main enemy strategy. Honestly, it's great. There are some fights that can feel infuriating if you are not adequately prepared, like the Meteor assault on Amaria house, and partner AI is a dumbass. 

Rejuvenation is very similar in terms of difficulty and field effects, highly recommend playing it on Intense for better experience, but Rejuvenation feels much more forgiving with the Audino trainers. It always have some useful pokemon against the next leader next to him, and you can easily level up pokemons you need, and basically change the strategy on the fly. While it is much more forgiving, the challenge even on Intense also feels softened, because your strategy options are bigger and more easily accessible. 

This is just my personal opinion, but i actually do prefer it the way Reborn does it. Zero lube, no preparations, and i find it more challenging overall because of the pokemon placement. Close one. 

5) Additional content

Reborn is pretty dry with it so far, to be honest. There are some hidden pokemon here and there, very good sidequests you can encounter, and that's about it. Every extra dungeon you complete is just rare pokemon or a mega stone. 

Rejuvenation, on the other hand, handled it perfectly. Zygarde cells, help centers with obvious sidequests and more hidden sidequests along the road, a huge amount of extra events that enhances the world, unique gimmicky dungeons like the timed passage. This is exactly how you do it, good job, Jan and co. 

Without any contest, Rejuvenation annihilates Reborn in that department. 


Now, all of this for me show sme one thing: Rejuvenation improved over it's predecessor in almost every way. Does it make Reborn bad? Hell no, it's bloody brilliant, but at this point, comparing it to Jan work, it might feel barebones and empty from time to time. I feel like despite it's few shortcomings, Rejuvenation might be the current golden standart for any pokemon fan game.

Now, my personal suggestions for both games. 

Reborn:  1) Fix the dungeons. Make them shorter but more filled with content and events.
2) Give characters more interconnectivity. With some exceptions, characters are in a vacuum and rarely interact with other than their someone important. 
3) Give personal stakes to the protagonist
4) Actually write Lin into the story, dont make it Lin-ex-machina

 

Rejuvenation: 1) Give protagonist more choices, more influence over the game events. We are the Interceptor, dammit. 
2) More focus to the Xen admins and give us Bladestar admins. 
3) Let time travel be just a side point for the plot, dont make everything spin around it
4) More small events with some characters that received very little attention would be appreciated, for example bonding with Amber (which i think is coming, since she is trying to tell us something for like 2 episodes, but oh so slowly) or actually talking to Saki and Erick. Just you know, would be nice to have a heart-to-heart with them and know them better. 



The board is kinda quiet before the new episode, so i thought to liven up place a bit and discuss. All i've said is just my personal opinion.

[The Swordsman]

I won't go into depth as you have but for me so far Reborn tops Rejuvenation despite both being really good fan games because IMO it feels like Reborn tries to and could actually fit in the canonical world of the Pokemon games while Rejuvenation likes to do it's own thing with it's lore and because Reborn's protagonist is more self insert/make up your own backstory friendly.

[Ulti]

Great work. I was actually thinking of making a post like this,  but looks like you beat me to it. You make plenty of good points. 

 

Lin, despite how powerful she supposedly is, her character unfortunately isn't.  

 

Ya think this is where all the edginess in the game went?

 

We don't really spend alot of time with her on screen and we only learn about her through word of mouth. I don't know. Something just feels missing with her. 

 

The gym leaders are amazing. Not only are they challenging,  but they have actual roles outside their respective gyms. Something you don't really see in a majority of fan games.

 

On that note, Saki Blakery and Volta, Voltsa or whatever. What the actual hell?

 

Both had duties as gym leaders, and they both ditch 'em leaving a newbie to handle it. He is challenging, but still. 

 

Saki actually may be my least favorite character from rejuvenation imo.

 

Ya know the "Give absolutely no fucks" character type? I feel like Saki and Terra fit into this category.  

 

 I like Terra. Although it seems like a character like her has no place in a story heavy game like Reborn, the moments of levity she gives are welcome.  

 

Though her identity might be even more mysterious than Lin herself.  She worked for both sides.

(In more ways than one. ) 

 

Then just disappears into the void after her gym battle.  Then again, the lol, random lewd and crude attitude is kind of jarring. 

 

 

 

[TeamPlayerSwampert]

Aye I was hoping someone would make this thread. I'd like to offer my 2 cents, including Desolation as well. I'll divide into x categories: main story, characters, balance/challenge, mapping, music/themes, sidequests, and quality of life - ratings on a scale of 10, with 5 being "average." These are just my opinions btw

 

*SPOILER WARNING* 

1) Main Story (this will be the longest one):

 

Reborn - From the start, Reborn is not your older brother's innocent Red/Blue/Yellow Pokemon game. Instead, we are given a dark, gritty dystopia that is being decimated with environmental terrorism at the hands of Team Meteor. The quest to fight team Meteor is compelling and dramatic, with an element of horror as well (Sirius using his Chandelure to burn Eclipse  who tried to rebel, Lin beheading Ame, and being unkillable, Pulse Hypno, etc...). I've always found cults especially fascinating and eerie, so I enjoy the mythos/lore added by the Arceus cult and the secret behind the door underneath the grand stairway. The reputation system that greatly changes the plot and dialogue based on key events (Solaris' Garchomp, battling Taka at the WTC, etc...)

 

Rejuvenation - This one also deals with a dark, gritty story including an Arceus cult, but in a more fantasy way - even the humans have powers. This is personal preference, but I think the magical powers in Rejuv are at times a bit ridiculous (especially anything involving Crescent, Spacea, and Tiempa) and act as a deus ex machina to force the plot rather than let the story develop organically. It feels like the people are more powerful than the Pokemon, which is NOT the reason I play Pokemon - Madame X even says this if you somehow defeat her Yveltal at Blacksteeple. Also, death does not matter at all which is obnoxious to me. On a positive note, I really enjoy the time travel aspects and the Where Love Lies backstory was excellent

Desolation - imo the most interesting of the three. Deso dials up the reputation system to 100 and your choices truly matter. The horror elements of dreams/Darkrai, brainwashing, visiting graveyards, etc keep you at the edge of your seat. The character interactions add so much life to the story. There are a healthy amount of dramatic plot twists in just 4 episodes. Team Crescent and the Black Foxes are formidable antagonists, but the true intrigue lies in the Shiv-Nova conflict and backstory over the Onyx Stone.

 

Verdict:

Reborn: 8.5/10

Rejuv: 6/10 (was a 3.5/10 before V9 but keeps improving each episode)

Desolation: 10/10

 

*none of the other sections will be nearly as long as the first one*

 

2) Characters

 

Reborn - Taka, Anna, Charlotte, Adrienn, Julia, Hardy, Cain, and Cal are all very likeable characters that I care deeply to protect. Other characters like Titania, Bennet, and Heather grow on you after a sour start. The characters you are supposed to hate like Fern and Blake are entertaining as hell - they're fun to hate. Solaris, ZEL, and El have complex backstories that make them sympathetic or at least intriguing. The weak links in this cast are the cringy Terra and bland "big bad" Lin -but the latter could improve greatly next episode.

 

Rejuvenation - Nancy/Mom, Tesla, Aelita, Venam, and Keta are characters that I truly enjoy interacting with and/or traveling along with. I truly feel for Zetta. Madame X is by far the best "big bad" of the three games so far. Evil Nim, Cassandra, Neved, the Gardevoir, and Isha do a good job of making you hate them in an exciting way. Despite these good characters, this cast is held back by Melia being a bland Mary Sue while hogging up screen time, along with how Crescent/Spacea/Tiempa are literal gods who are probably stronger than Arceus itself, making the protagonist's actions feel insignificant.

 

Desolation - Traveling with Ava, Scarlett, Shiv, and Connor make you feel like your not alone - their personalities breathe a lot of life to this game. Nova, Amelia, Lillith, and Aurora are formidable threats that keep the story compelling. Rosetta, Garrett, Hardy, and Emily are fun too. Baron is kinda bland/generic anime villain tho.

 

Verdict:

Reborn: 9/10

Rejuvenation: 7/10

Desolation: 9.5/10

 

3) Balancing/Challenge

 

Reborn - Very just and fair, though some of the field effects border on being ridiculous. Forces you to become a better trainer. Excellent pokemon are accessable if you put in the effort, even early on. Overall, this provides a challenge that the mainline games couldn't compete with. Least difficult of the three, but still very challenging. No boss is truly "unfair" and you don't need to counterteam but you must play strategically.

 

Rejuvenation - Provides difficulty options, which is always a huge plus. Even more challenging than Reborn. Very exciting and pushes you to your limits as a trainer. Some of the custom moves (Crawli) are broken. Valarie is the most difficult gym leader out of all three games and might be a bit too hard for most unless you specifically counterteam. The other gym leaders and bosses are fair and just for the most part.

 

Desolation - Tristan might be too difficult (fighting Mega Lopunny, one of the best megas, and eviolite Porygon2 in just the third gym before you have access to most of the OU or UU pokemon?) but the game gets much easier if you do the sidequests and collect the items, TMs, and credits. After Tristan, it's easier than Reborn but until then both Aderynn and Tristan give you hell. Can be a bit too generous with TM's after Tristan.

 

Verdict: (10 means best balance, not most difficult)

Reborn: 10/10

Rejuv: 9/10

Desolation: 8/10

 

*all of the next sections will be very short*

 

4) Mapping Verdict

Reborn: 8.5/10 (starts as a generic city, but improves tremendously once you leave Reborn city. Aventurine region and Ametrine region are very well done)

Rejuv: 10/10 (so pretty, every cave, dungeon, or forest is so breathtakingly beautiful and well made)

Desolation: 7.5/10 (opposite of Reborn, starts beautiful but then turns into a generic city)

 

5) Music Verdict

All three: 10/10, GlitchxCity is bae

 

6) Sidequest Verdict

Reborn: 8/10 (7/10 before neo-Reborn City, 9.5/10 starting from neo-Reborn City - onwards) 

Rejuv: 9/10 (I love the help center requests, they are very fulfilling to complete. Other sidequests are fun too)

Desolation: 10/10 (forget Pokemon, to me these are Skyrim-tier good. The Rangers guild is so much fun and add to the mythos of this game)

 

7) Quality of Life

Reborn: 7.5/10 (timely-placed healing shard/machines, Tauros riding, early available Power items and EV reducing berries)

Rejuv: 10/10 (Audino trainers, EV training rooms, fast travel by truck, can remove HM necessity with Golden items)

Desolation: 8.5/10 (Audino Trainers, fast travel by teleporter, rematch bosses with the Manor, just the Manor in general)

[Zanoar]

Well at least dead keta still gave us our badge and a tm(yep corey).And somehow marianette's badge is also valid.If we had those in reborn we would have  completed the league alread. The level cap is currently a little high in rejuv compared to reborn.Also it is stated that reborn takes place years before rejuv.But yep reborn is way more realistic than rejuv(time travel,splitting souls,immortalit, etc). In fact reborn might be the most realistic pokemon game ever.         

[wetvegan]

On 4/8/2019 at 10:02 AM, Zanoar said:

Well at least dead keta still gave us our badge and a tm(yep corey).And somehow marianette's badge is also valid.If we had those in reborn we would have  completed the league alread. The level cap is currently a little high in rejuv compared to reborn.Also it is stated that reborn takes place years before rejuv.But yep reborn is way more realistic than rejuv(time travel,splitting souls,immortalit, etc). In fact reborn might be the most realistic pokemon game ever.         

Reborn has a black hole with a constant volume. You can also escape from said black hole

[VirtualizingProductions]

I just noticed that in both Reborn and Rejuvenation, after getting your 9th badge, you start to progress into the story while, at the same time, get to a place which you can’t go back (point of no return). When you’re at Agate city and get directed to Agate circus, you cannot return to Reborn City for a while due to a sleeping spell from some Pulse machine. For Rejuvenation, once you hop on the train in West Gearen, you cannot get back to Gearen City for a while due to the guard saying that they’re investigating the train that was almost wrecked. Both Reborn and Rejuvenation has NPC characters give you HM Fly between 12th to 13th badge, except that in Reborn, you have to beat Ciel to get the badge and permission to Fly while in Rejuvenation, you can start using Fly before beating Adam. From the moment you get access to Fly, both Reborn City and East Gearen City had undergo major changes, making it both restored/improved (East Gearen wasn’t destroyed, hence the “improved” term).

 

Overall, that are aspects that I’ve noticed and thought about when I progressed the game. As if I was playing the same game again.

[Harryp]

1. story- Reborn seems to have a more clear and well paced story making sense in what order the events occur while Rejuvenations seems like a mess (I played 100% through in a couple of days), they keep adding new content which is a sudden twist which creates hype but was NO hints or foreshadowing (making the plot as they go, they try to change somethings to the old content to make it more developed such as how jan couldn't get in contact with Amanda which was obviously inserted in). Rejuvenation has way too much going on that you could make 4 seperate games, bladestar had a terrible ending very disappointed to say the least which in the future similar things will probably happen to antagonists of the story. 

2. Characters- Reborn's characters are more in depth in many ways covering mature topics, while rejuvenation characters follow specific tropes, being generic with exceptions. Lin is probably the edgiest character in reborn (if you did 100% playthrough of everything you would know about her not being flesh and blood, Lin is supposed be around the age of Anna but this one is drastically older, doesn't have a SOUL. The Lin we meet probably is a robot created by the real Lin. Madame X is........

3. Dungeons- I don't care but Rejuvenation with v12 seems simpler (even past versions seemed simpler than reborn). 

4.  Difficult- reborn and rejuvenation are AROUND the same difficulty for (even at intense which only increases level and adds stronger Pokemon and legendarys and items such as crests, and higher stats) for example for ambers gym just use rain dance get the rainbow field and sweep. The gauntlet in E18 is ALTHOUGH harder than anything in Pokemon rejuvenation (which keeps putting the difficulty down such as valarie).

Edit: I am sorry for offending anyone, I have replayed rejuvenation and reborn recently at their latest versions.

 

Melia is the worst character in rejuvenation and it doesn't help that she is basically the most reoccurring character in the game appearing almost every version. Melina thinks she's some type of saver. Everybody "likes" melia for example venam, ren, kanon, ext.

 

Rejuvenation villains- Theolia church (Angie, past vitus/indraid), team xen we completely wrecked them several times and poor zetta and geara, madelis got a redemption (saves Melina in v12), Nastasia helps us way too much in v12 (the mission to zone zero is unauthorized Madame x doesn't even know), nobody cares about neved we wrecked him. I actually care about Cassandra apparently she is the key to the xenpurgis and seems like an actual villain. POOR bladestar, Nim, and finally the last villain seems to be whoever created the robot Amanda. WOW 

Indraid is the original man in the story his kids Melia, Erin, Alice, Allen are the archetype. Nymeria is the original women (she thinks ruins are nostalgic). I hope this is not true because I figured this out from just some text in v11.

Extra Content- Reborn has better sidequests (explains.....  a lot and develops the story) though rejuvenation has the ANA sidequest, Hidden library, and Narsscia side quest (adds development to a one demsional character).

Also I first played reborn in around 2012-2013 before gen 6 and rejuvenation just a little bit later  

 

Sorry for BAD grammar and spelling.

 

IMPORTANT: Jan started taking the game seriously around v6, and every version is improving eversince, Zumi creates amazing art, with all the members of the developer team doing amazing.

 

Summary: Pokemon rejuvenation and reborn are both great it's all left to your preference. I don't hate rejuvenation it is a wonderful game but I feel it has some inconsistencies and such. Thank you both to Ame and Jan for making those games.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Harryp

[DerogatoryTrainer]

One thing I remember when going back to Reborn is everyone calling you great, wanting your autograph and want you to be the next champ. Whereas Rejuvenation is more "oh it's just some asshole, let's have a robot kick them out a window for fun haha"

 

So Rejuvenation is the more abusive of the two.

[Sceptilespy]

5 hours ago, Harryp said:

4.  Difficulty- there should be no debate reborn is way harder than rejuvenation (even at intense which only increases level and adds a legendary and items) for example for ambers gym just use rain dance get the rainbow field and sweep. The gauntlet in E18 is harder than anything in Pokemon rejuvenation.

Extra Content- Reborn has better sidequests (explains.....  a lot and develops the story) though rejuvenation has the ANA sidequest, Hiden library, and Narsscia side quest (adds development to a one demsional character).

These are the only parts I care to respond too. For difficulty, It's evident that you haven't played Rejuvenation in years. Rejuvenation's Intense mode offers a lot more then extra levels and a Legendary (New movesets, Pokemon, Items, strats, etc.). Reborn doesn't even start giving bosses EVs until Charlotte. The Reborn Gauntlet Pokemon have pathetic IVs that leave them liable to get one shot by anything. The Fiore Mansion gauntlet has no EVs on any of the Pokemon. The Hardest Sections of Reborn can barely compare to the easier parts of Intense Mode. Bosses in Rejuvenation like the Flying Leader and Rock Leader on Intense mode are crazy fights and I recommend you replay Rejuvenation entirely to get a fresh opinion on the gane.

 

As for extra content...I don't see how you think this at all. Rejuv has a ton more sidequests that elaborate on the plot and provide character development. It literally has an extra game just to go in depth on the backstory of a single character. This shouldn't even be a question. Rejuvenation is far superior in this regard. 

 

I don't really care about the other stuff. I respect your opinion and right to have that opinion. I just recommend you replay Rejuvenation since it's clear you haven't played in a while. It's only fair to review a game after actually being knowledgable about it. 

[Commander]

5 minutes ago, Sceptilespy said:

These are the only parts I care to respond too. For difficulty, It's evident that you haven't played Rejuvenation in years. Rejuvenation's Intense mode offers a lot more then extra levels and a Legendary (New movesets, Pokemon, Items, strats, etc.). Reborn doesn't even start giving bosses EVs until Charlotte. The Reborn Gauntlet Pokemon have pathetic IVs that leave them liable to get one shot by anything. The Fiore Mansion gauntlet has no EVs on any of the Pokemon. The Hardest Sections of Reborn can barely compare to the easier parts of Intense Mode. Bosses in Rejuvenation like the Flying Leader and Rock Leader on Intense mode are crazy fights and I recommend you replay Rejuvenation entirely to get a fresh opinion on the gane.

 

As for extra content...I don't see how you think this at all. Rejuv has a ton more sidequests that elaborate on the plot and provide character development. It literally has an extra game just to go in depth on the backstory of a single character. This shouldn't even be a question. Rejuvenation is far superior in this regard. 

 

I don't really care about the other stuff. I respect your opinion and right to have that opinion. I just recommend you replay Rejuvenation since it's clear you haven't played in a while. It's only fair to review a game after actually being knowledgable about it. 

That's a little presumptuous, wouldn't you say. Harder is a very subjective term and even grinding everything down the difference isn't that much. Reborn feels like it throws more new and unexpected things so someone could perceive it as harder. I had more difficulty with regular Reborn over Rejuv intense. Doesn't mean Reborn is harder due to that, but just which one I struggled more on.

[Sceptilespy]

36 minutes ago, Commander said:

That's a little presumptuous, wouldn't you say. Harder is a very subjective term and even grinding everything down the difference isn't that much. Reborn feels like it throws more new and unexpected things so someone could perceive it as harder. I had more difficulty with regular Reborn over Rejuv intense. Doesn't mean Reborn is harder due to that, but just which one I struggled more on.

There's a few things wrong with this: First off, you played Reborn properly for the first time years ago. You had a lot more experience when dealing with Rejuvenation for the first proper playthrough, so your anecdote doesn't say much to your point. 

 

Also, of course harder is a subjective term, but that doesn't mean you can't conclude which game is harder using basic facts. Rejuv has earlier EVs, consistent strategies on Gym Leaders, more oppressive fights, and that's all just off the top of my head. You can argue for these things in reborn somewhat but not to the extent in Rejuv (Amaria is the 16th Leader in the game and gets obliterated by...everything. I've seen so many videos of people leading 1 mon against her and 6-0ing it's Ridiculous. Luna has been a meme for ages now. Radomus loses if he doesn't get trick room. None of this is oppressive or consistent.) 

 

Overall, yeah, it's possible to have a harder experience on Reborn then it is in Rejuv; But it isn't as though you can't deduce which one of the two is harder using basic facts that exist independent of a Player's gameplay. 

 

EDIT: Just found out evs, are default level x1.5 when not specified apparently. I'll admit this was ignorance on my end, but I hope i don't have to explain the big difference between Rejuv's early sensible EVs that are there specifically buff the Pokemon's performance and Reborn's evs that are basically handed out to the trainers by default with no real direction or strategy until Charlotte. 

[Milotic]

While I agree Reborn has had way more hellish battles then Rejuvantion and you had to get really creative to win, I think Rejuvantion's difficulty was actully toned down over the years. I've been playing since the early versions and it was not always as simple as grinding with audino trainers and easily finding the mons you need to win. You had to use creativity and earn your wins just like in reborn (Spirit keta, Prenerf Narcissa, Prenerf Valarie) I know yall know what im talking about lol, they were worse then anything you will play on intense these days. I think over the years the priority just became making the game as good as possible as opposed to anything else.

[Commander]

2 hours ago, Milotic said:

While I agree Reborn has had way more hellish battles then Rejuvantion and you had to get really creative to win, I think Rejuvantion's difficulty was actully toned down over the years. I've been playing since the early versions and it was not always as simple as grinding with audino trainers and easily finding the mons you need to win. You had to use creativity and earn your wins just like in reborn (Spirit keta, Prenerf Narcissa, Prenerf Valarie) I know yall know what im talking about lol, they were worse then anything you will play on intense these days. I think over the years the priority just became making the game as good as possible as opposed to anything else.

People act like difficulty is some deciding factor to a game. A game can be harder but terrible and it can be easy but fun as heck to play. I don't get what the big deal is if Reborn is harder than Rejuv. No need to justify or defend it in all honesty. Both are fun to play.

[Cyphre]

2 minutes ago, Commander said:

People act like difficulty is some deciding factor to a game. A game can be harder but terrible and it can be easy but fun as heck to play. I don't get what the big deal is if Reborn is harder than Rejuv. No need to justify or defend it in all honesty. Both are fun to play.

Thats exactly what you did in the previous post though, which defended Reborn dfficulty. I dont think you are in a position to lecture anyone on this matter. 

 

However people have preferences in difficulties, this is why it's important for people to compare this criteria sometimes. Whether Reborn or Rejuvenation is harder, its more of a matter of gameplay balance. However Reborn is absolutely unquestionably less polished in balance and jumps all around (kinda prefer it personally), while Rejuvenation's difficulty is very consistent and thought out, at least on Intense. 

 

 

[Commander]

4 hours ago, Cyphre said:

Thats exactly what you did in the previous post though, which defended Reborn dfficulty. I dont think you are in a position to lecture anyone on this matter. 

 

However people have preferences in difficulties, this is why it's important for people to compare this criteria sometimes. Whether Reborn or Rejuvenation is harder, its more of a matter of gameplay balance. However Reborn is absolutely unquestionably less polished in balance and jumps all around (kinda prefer it personally), while Rejuvenation's difficulty is very consistent and thought out, at least on Intense. 

 

 

The point was honestly never about which one was which. Read the very first sentence I wrote writing about the difficulty. I was merely bringing points up because good lord was that response kind of rude. "You must not have played Rejuvenation in years" Don't you think that's a little presumptuous?

 

But do you want to know something funny? Memeborn is pretty much accepted as harder than Redux. How much has that impacted Redux's playerbase? Almost 0 if not made it grow.

 

If I really think about it, Reborn is harder than Rejuv. I've sunk about 2/3rds as much time into Rejuv then I have Reborn. There's a 3 or 4 year gap between the two since I started playing and following each. That should really say something. Because Rejuv is easier, I find myself enjoying longer play sessions of it over Reborn. Sure there's hiccup fights but Reborn had much, much worse ones before nerfs. I was busy at work but if you really want me to argue this, I can probably tomorrow night. Been a while since I had a little fun.

[Sceptilespy]

I've seen some interesting points. Just gonna respond to what piques my interest. Won't be ordered or anything. Also messed up the formatting a little. Sorry about that. 

 

5 hours ago, Commander said:

The point was honestly never about which one was which. Read the very first sentence I wrote writing about the difficulty. I was merely bringing points up because good lord was that response kind of rude. "You must not have played Rejuvenation in years" Don't you think that's a little presumptuous?

 

Spoiler

Well this is pretty disappointing Comm. You know I wasn't trying to be rude and I was just making a conclusion based upon what I had analyzed and responded to. Stop making a mountain out of a mole hill; This is a Pokemon thread. There's no reason to point fingers. 

 

12 hours ago, Milotic said:

While I agree Reborn has had way more hellish battles then Rejuvantion and you had to get really creative to win, I think Rejuvantion's difficulty was actully toned down over the years. I've been playing since the early versions and it was not always as simple as grinding with audino trainers and easily finding the mons you need to win. You had to use creativity and earn your wins just like in reborn (Spirit keta, Prenerf Narcissa, Prenerf Valarie) I know yall know what im talking about lol, they were worse then anything you will play on intense these days. I think over the years the priority just became making the game as good as possible as opposed to anything else.

Spoiler

Well I don't disagree with the "I think over the years the priority just became making the game as good as possible as opposed to anything else." I don't really understand the rest of your comment. I definitely think the hardest parts of Rejuvenation far outclass the hardest parts of Reborn. Most people immediately default to the gauntlet, and while I won't blame them, as it is kinda hard, there are some strategies, and even Pokemon alone that 30-0 the gauntlet (Lookin at you Trick Room and Mega Houndoom). I don't really see single Pokemon obliterating fights on their own in Rejuvenation, and Rejuvenation doesn't even have a conceptually unfair gauntlet. The best examples I can think of are Lycanroc to Crawli (Which is invalid now because of Telluric Seed Scizor) and a lot of Pokemon with Amber (Who's meant to be a breather fight anyway. Especially considering the absolutely hellish Geara+Zetta fight which is damn near infamous on Intense mode that comes right before it.) As for "Rejuvenation's difficulty being toned down". I guess I can see where you're coming from, but those fights were toned down because they were horribly designed. They're still very hard fights now and contribute nicely to the overall consistent difficulty of Rejuv's Intense Mode. So while those specific fights were toned down, the general difficulty of Rejuvenation hasn't gotten toned down in my opinion. Again, if you haven't, I urge you to replay Rejuvenation v12 Intense mode to see for yourself, since it seems to me that you haven't played in a while. 

 

10 hours ago, Commander said:

People act like difficulty is some deciding factor to a game. A game can be harder but terrible and it can be easy but fun as heck to play. I don't get what the big deal is if Reborn is harder than Rejuv. No need to justify or defend it in all honesty. Both are fun to play.

Spoiler

I guess if you've seen this then ok but nobody has implied anything close to that so I'm not sure why you brought it up. 

 

5 hours ago, Commander said:

If I really think about it, Reborn is harder than Rejuv. I've sunk about 2/3rds as much time into Rejuv then I have Reborn. There's a 3 or 4 year gap between the two since I started playing and following each. That should really say something. Because Rejuv is easier, I find myself enjoying longer play sessions of it over Reborn. Sure there's hiccup fights but Reborn had much, much worse ones before nerfs. I was busy at work but if you really want me to argue this, I can probably tomorrow night. Been a while since I had a little fun.

Spoiler

Can't say much if that's your experience. Just make sure you're not letting your hours of Redux testing skew your perspective on how hard Vanilla Reborn is. I don't know you very well, but I don't think you've played through Reborn in a while so you may want to try doing that one day to have a fresh opinion (Also a more accurate one. You've undoubtedly improved in the 3-4 years between when you started Reborn and when you started Rejuvenation.) 

 

 

[!!yxnT]

Spoiler

Interesting viewpoint...

 

For me it's the opposite. Reborn's story wins over Rejuv's. The cast of Reborn has just grown on me for some reason, while in Rejuvenation we get introduced to a stupid amount of characters, especially in GDC, who you can't keep up with especially if you come back to the game after a while. The little side connections the characters in Reborn have are fun to explore(Cal and Shelly, Taka and Luna, etc) and add another layer of depth to the story. You don't see much of that in Rejuv. I haven't gotten to V12 yet, since my old run died along with my hard drive, but from what I've played before Team Meteor beats Team Xen. Team Meteor has grown as the story has progressed, becoming more and more of a threat as we become stronger. This starts off when Sigmund and the orderlies join, then when El is revealed, later when Lin is shown to be stronger than the champion, etc. The main evil team has actually done stuff and poses a real threat.Team Xen, however, has deteriorated since the start. Zetta dies alongside their ability to create rifts, Geara dies, Madelis does a 180 and Madame X ends up helping us on various occasions. After Blacksteeple, they really done much to Aevium. In Reborn, the MC's actions have changed Reborn. Without them, the world pretty much ends, according to Miss Direction. However in Rejuvenation, nothing we do seems to matter. Whether or not we win a lot of battles, the outcome still stays the same because someone swoops in to save the day. 

 

The mapping and eventing however, is much better in rejuvenation. Now don't get me wrong, the design of Reborn is great, but Rejuvenation just goes that extra mile. For example, in amethyst cave you can actually see the floor below the one you are on, which is rare in fangames.The cities and towns are huge and full of detail. The characters make expressions and have original, yet detailed designs. These things combined make the exploration part of Rejuvenation amazing. Honestly, this game is better mapped than some most of the main series games.

 

Difficulty goes to Reborn again. Even in intense, Rejuvenation can't really compare to Reborn. Reborn forces you to use shitty pokemon for the beginning, while Rejuvenation gives you okay mons like buizel, litleo, helioptile, nidoran, and rockruff before the first gym. Reborn forces you to use a lot more strategy for fights like the glass gauntlet, Charlotte, Amaria, Serra, El, and the PULSEs, just to name a few. I remember almost throwing my laptop at a wall when I couldn't beat that stupid PULSE swalot until I realized soak was a thing. In Rejuvenation however, steamrolling through the game is a lot easier, especially with stuff like simple swoobat in the early game, right before 2 leaders who were weak to it. I could count the number of fights in intense that actually forced me to cheese my opponent on one hand(Valarie, Angie, Zetta and Geara, and Souta). Plus in Reborn, if you're feeling especially mashochistic, you can opt in for Redux or Memeborn, while there is nothing like that for Rejuvenation, though even without these Reborn still wins. 

 

TLDR: If you're playing for a challenge and/or darker story, go with Reborn. If you like milder stories and like a game more focused on exploration, go with Rejuvenation

 

 

[Sceptilespy]

1 hour ago, !!yxnT said:

  Hide contents

Difficulty goes to Reborn again. Even in intense, Rejuvenation can't really compare to Reborn. Reborn forces you to use shitty pokemon for the beginning, while Rejuvenation gives you okay mons like buizel, litleo, helioptile, nidoran, and rockruff before the first gym. Reborn forces you to use a lot more strategy for fights like the glass gauntlet, Charlotte, Amaria, Serra, El, and the PULSEs, just to name a few. I remember almost throwing my laptop at a wall when I couldn't beat that stupid PULSE swalot until I realized soak was a thing. In Rejuvenation however, steamrolling through the game is a lot easier, especially with stuff like simple swoobat in the early game, right before 2 leaders who were weak to it. I could count the number of fights in intense that actually forced me to cheese my opponent on one hand(Valarie, Angie, Zetta and Geara, and Souta). Plus in Reborn, if you're feeling especially mashochistic, you can opt in for Redux or Memeborn, while there is nothing like that for Rejuvenation, though even without these Reborn still wins. 

 

this'll probably be my last post on the thread. mainly because i've said all my points and i'd be beating a dead horse by repeating them anymore.

Spoiler

 

1. rejuv has you use strategy for a ton of fights as well. You can't charge into any of the Rift Pokemon after Rift Gyarados without a strategy, and gym battles like Souta, Adam, Puppet Masters, and more are very oppressive fights that force you to work uphill from the start (Broken field, Inversed Type chart, and Shitty partner respectively). Also..those fights you mentioned don't really say much for your point imo. Charlotte's strategy is destroyed by wide guard. Not sure how the forum users feel about Amaria, but on the discord, she's mostly a meme. She's 6-0'd by Shedinja and gets bent over by Icy cave or Murkwater field. Sure, you could call using those moves "strategy", but if your strategy amounts to clicking 1 move to win the game, then the fight wasn't very hard in the first place. El requires strategy, won't argue with you there. The PULSEs require as much strategy as the Rift Pokemon. They literally serve the same purpose, except Rejuv's Rifts are a lot more oppressive and overwhelming (Teammates instead of a 6v1 that can be cheesed by destiny bond on some rifts). Serra is useless once you earthquake her field. 

 

2. As for Reborn forcing you to use shitty Pokemon...beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Those "shitty" pokemon can stomp julia if you play your cards right. All of the wormadam forms 6-0 julia. Mightyena 6-0s julia. Zigzagoon destroys her field, and then the rest of your team destroys julia. Your point is invalid because while reborn may gave you "shit" pokemon, it gives you pokemon that get the job done, and that is all you need to win a battle. as for Rejuv giving simple swoobat before the 1st gym leader...yeah, so what? The first 2 gyms don't need to be extra hard, and honestly? I've used swoobat a lot in rejuv and it has never 6-0'd venam or keta. Venam has an alolan grimer and Keta's mons are too bulky to be killed in one shot by swoobat. His ace is a lucario which is neutral to both of its stabs. 

 

3. "if you're feeling especially mashochistic, you can opt in for Redux or Memeborn, while there is nothing like that for Rejuvenation" 

this isn't a point for reborn or against rejuv. we're comparing those two games, not difficulty mods that edit the base game. that's just unfair. rejuv hasn't been out for as long nor has it acquired nearly a large enough fanbase in comparison to reborn. i can tell since a lot of the people on this thread's experience which rejuv goes up to about version 7 content (For reference, the most recent version is version 12) .

 

4. "Reborn forces you to use a lot more strategy for fights like the glass gauntlet" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPlsqGOQq4

 

Of course I'll be responding to anyone who disagrees so we can have a discussion, but i doubt i'll be making anymore long posts like this. discord is my home

 

 

 

[wetvegan]

wow scep ur such a rejuv fanboy smh

[Des Teto]

Yeah, you can roll over some fights with a counter-team or even with a hard-counter. You can do so because you know your opponent's team. But where is the fun in that?

 

It's ok for a team to be 6 - 0 by something. or at least to have several counters. Every team does. That does not mean the team is weak.

[interdiction]

Spoiler

Which Rejuvenation Rifts themselves don't get cheesed by Perish Song? Galvantula, Aelita, and Gardevoir? The new Hippowdon has no way around it (I used it as I had no idea how I was going to break through them otherwise, though, free (max?) stockpile and 1HKO spit ups and presumably spammable Swallow sounds like a recipe for struggle stalling) at least. Otherwise, though, I think on average Reborn gym leaders tend to have 1-3 brutal pokemon and a bunch of filler (with some exceptions like Shelly (other than her ace, oddly) and Charlotte) while Rejuvenation tends to have each Pokemon be more of a problem to deal with on average. There also really aren't as many pushover leaders in Rejuvenation (Julia, Florinia, Radomus, and Luna in Reborn, vs probably only Venam and Flora/Florin on Normal, but I don't know their V12 teams.)  However, Reborn has a few more punishing sequences than Rejuvenation and tends to have back-to-back battles more often in my eyes where even the newest "gauntlet" battles in Rejuvenation give you heals between each one, and Rejuvenation is certainly more generous with Pokemon availability for the most part as well as TM availability (The only gimme you get in Reborn is Charge Beam, and while it takes a little bit to start finding worthwhile TMs (though Poison Sweep is good early for physical poison types and Stacking Shot isn't unusable, though not great, once you get past that most leaders award very good TMs. (Facade, Shadow Ball, "Surf" (not really a TM, but essentially Valarie's reward), Overheat, Volt Switch and Energy Ball which aren't even obtainable with SEVENTEEN badges in Reborn while you have both by 9 in Rejuv, Acrobatics, Rock Slide from gym #13 instead of #17. I don't know how to evaluate Arenite Wall currently but it should be handy for anyone who has a sand streamer) Rejuvenation also makes EV training far easier especially in V12, while in Reborn you have to memorize which areas are best for which stat, and the grinding trainers don't fight back with powerful teams like the Grand Hall trainers. ( Though they also don't reward money. This is more of a matter of patience.) I feel like for the most part Reborn's field effects are also stronger (I know they're ported over, but there hasn't really been stuff that's as nasty as things like Fairy Tale Field+Titania where even resisting an attack isn't always enough to survive it, other than maybe Valarie using Surf if she has it on any of her Pokemon, which I think she only does on Intense if at all, though surviving that from a Primarina at that point would be nigh-impossible without water immunity or being specially bulky AND resistant. Erick's field is also probably one of the hardest to deal with for me as it shuts down multiple counter-types to Electric (Ground fails and dies to boosted Surfs, Grass gets ruined by the poison water damage) and essentially makes his pokemon weaknessless outside of secondary typings.)

 

Edit: Regarding El mentioned in a previous post, El has a 100% guaranteed hard counter to him -in the area you fight him in-. Get 3 Sturdy Geodudes/Gravelers which are already at the level to know Bulldoze and you autowin. Boring, but if you wanted a hard-counter, there you go. Pretty obnoxious to fight "fairly", though.

 

I'd say both games have elements in which they're easier or harder than the other. I can't really pin one down as being the more difficult game, nor whether I can really say which one's difficulty I prefer. 

Big old wall of text regarding game difficulty opinions. These are somewhat outdated and based on Normal rather than Intense for the most part.

Edited July 17, 2019 by interdiction

[Milotic]

12 hours ago, Sceptilespy said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Spoiler

Well I don't disagree with the "I think over the years the priority just became making the game as good as possible as opposed to anything else." I don't really understand the rest of your comment. I definitely think the hardest parts of Rejuvenation far outclass the hardest parts of Reborn. Most people immediately default to the gauntlet, and while I won't blame them, as it is kinda hard, there are some strategies, and even Pokemon alone that 30-0 the gauntlet (Lookin at you Trick Room and Mega Houndoom). I don't really see single Pokemon obliterating fights on their own in Rejuvenation, and Rejuvenation doesn't even have a conceptually unfair gauntlet. The best examples I can think of are Lycanroc to Crawli (Which is invalid now because of Telluric Seed Scizor) and a lot of Pokemon with Amber (Who's meant to be a breather fight anyway. Especially considering the absolutely hellish Geara+Zetta fight which is damn near infamous on Intense mode that comes right before it.) As for "Rejuvenation's difficulty being toned down". I guess I can see where you're coming from, but those fights were toned down because they were horribly designed. They're still very hard fights now and contribute nicely to the overall consistent difficulty of Rejuv's Intense Mode. So while those specific fights were toned down, the general difficulty of Rejuvenation hasn't gotten toned down in my opinion. Again, if you haven't, I urge you to replay Rejuvenation v12 Intense mode to see for yourself, since it seems to me that you haven't played in a while. 

 

 

Lol I've already played thru V12 and I'm very familiar with how the game used to be vs how it is now and I have to say that the difficulty has defintely been toned down. You say the fights were horribly designed, I somewhat agree, but not only were the fights nerfed as a result, newer and better mons became available in areas that they weren't at first, then better items, access to EV rooms, more trainers, etc. Which goes back to my point about their priority being making the game better, as opposed to that challenging aspect. Which led Jan to introduce the different playing modes (Easy, Casual, Intense), for those who still wanted a kick of how the old rejuvantion used to be. In my experience Intense is challenging for sure, but with all the new techs available it will never seem as hard as the earlier versions of rejuvenation which is what my initial point was. Quickly addressing the gauntlet point, Im not sure why that is the first thing people go to when talking about reborn's difficulty as it is a series of battles that doesnt allow to change your team or strategy for each battle. I dont believe that it is the best example as it is meant to be a unfair challenge.

[!!yxnT]

8 hours ago, Sceptilespy said:

this'll probably be my last post on the thread. mainly because i've said all my points and i'd be beating a dead horse by repeating them anymore.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1. rejuv has you use strategy for a ton of fights as well. You can't charge into any of the Rift Pokemon after Rift Gyarados without a strategy, and gym battles like Souta, Adam, Puppet Masters, and more are very oppressive fights that force you to work uphill from the start (Broken field, Inversed Type chart, and Shitty partner respectively). Also..those fights you mentioned don't really say much for your point imo. Charlotte's strategy is destroyed by wide guard. Not sure how the forum users feel about Amaria, but on the discord, she's mostly a meme. She's 6-0'd by Shedinja and gets bent over by Icy cave or Murkwater field. Sure, you could call using those moves "strategy", but if your strategy amounts to clicking 1 move to win the game, then the fight wasn't very hard in the first place. El requires strategy, won't argue with you there. The PULSEs require as much strategy as the Rift Pokemon. They literally serve the same purpose, except Rejuv's Rifts are a lot more oppressive and overwhelming (Teammates instead of a 6v1 that can be cheesed by destiny bond on some rifts). Serra is useless once you earthquake her field. 

 

2. As for Reborn forcing you to use shitty Pokemon...beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Those "shitty" pokemon can stomp julia if you play your cards right. All of the wormadam forms 6-0 julia. Mightyena 6-0s julia. Zigzagoon destroys her field, and then the rest of your team destroys julia. Your point is invalid because while reborn may gave you "shit" pokemon, it gives you pokemon that get the job done, and that is all you need to win a battle. as for Rejuv giving simple swoobat before the 1st gym leader...yeah, so what? The first 2 gyms don't need to be extra hard, and honestly? I've used swoobat a lot in rejuv and it has never 6-0'd venam or keta. Venam has an alolan grimer and Keta's mons are too bulky to be killed in one shot by swoobat. His ace is a lucario which is neutral to both of its stabs. 

 

3. "if you're feeling especially mashochistic, you can opt in for Redux or Memeborn, while there is nothing like that for Rejuvenation" 

this isn't a point for reborn or against rejuv. we're comparing those two games, not difficulty mods that edit the base game. that's just unfair. rejuv hasn't been out for as long nor has it acquired nearly a large enough fanbase in comparison to reborn. i can tell since a lot of the people on this thread's experience which rejuv goes up to about version 7 content (For reference, the most recent version is version 12) .

 

4. "Reborn forces you to use a lot more strategy for fights like the glass gauntlet" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPlsqGOQq4

 

 

 

 

Of course I'll be responding to anyone who disagrees so we can have a discussion, but i doubt i'll be making anymore long posts like this. discord is my home

 

 

 

Spoiler

1. Souta's field can turn into like 10 other fields if you have the right moves. DemICE beat him with a special attacking sneasal(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uwYVR0wsvA&list=PL2veEvNHoo8iZ_KTa8n8Cdd9SFFRojv6I&index=7) One smack down and one dig gives you a field where one of his weaknesses is boosted. Adam's own field can destroy him. Slap a bunch of seeds on your pokemon and you should be pretty close to beating him. As for the puppet masters, one of them is a stall team, so if you just focus on the one with the sweepers it becomes a 2v1. For the reborn fights you mentioned, a lot of those strategies are new to me since my recent runs have been monoruns. 

 

2. While your points may be true, those pokemon probably won't be on your team after Shade. Reborn forces you to change your team as you go. Rejuvenation gives you pokemon like  alolan grimer and rockruff before the first badge. In Reborn you have to wait until Agate to get those pokemon. 

 

3. As for those mods, I said that Reborn still wins in difficulty without them. 

 

[ParadoxPotentia]

In my opinion, Reborn has the better maps than rejuvenation- but I really liked Reborn city. It sold me on the setting, that even before team meteor, this was a grim and gritty city, somewhere between a noir setting and and gotham, with some irl-shithole aesthetic for flavor. The unnatural disasters really hammered in both how big of a threat Team Meteor was and how much the city was failing, and the deaths emphasized that meteor isn't just the assholes we facestomp in traditional pokemon games. Most of Reborn sold the setting very well, and honestly I'd say its lore mostly is self-sufficient. It's pretty clear that Gardevoir's black hole is not what a person on our world would call a black hole, but frankly the fact that the pokemon world still exists is sufficient evidence for that.

 

Getting out into the wilderness was a breath of fresh air, but a lot of it felt wild and untamed... which was the point, I guess. I'm actually more of a fan of reborns "find the sidequests yourself, asshole" system to what rejuv has, but that's as someone with access to a guide when I need it.

 

Rejuv makes me actually wonder about the setting, though. Reborn mostly feels like it makes sense, but. Rejuv doesn't do a bad job of constantly raising questions. Rejuv drops more arcs, though. In Reborn, every plot arc except for the hospital of horrors itself had me engaged and not rolling my eyes. In Rejuv, quite a few are botched/rushed a little or a lot.

 

Rejuv is harder, imo, on some levels, but Reborn feels more fair in its ruthless curbstomps. The gym leaders might have better mons than you, but they aren't better by much, and only a handful of pulse mons are fighting without the handicap of "I don't have a team". Rejuv sets full-on legendaries on you in a lot of gym battles, meanwhile.

 

Either way, I prefer both Rejuv and Reborn to Desolation. The aesthetic of Desolation is simply not my cup of tea... also there's no accelerate button, which is a huge problem. That isn't saying it's not a good game, though. It's just... long stretches of wilderness with brief patches of civilization isn't really my preference