Rejuvenation and Reborn comparison (spoilers)

[Sceptilespy]

3 hours ago, !!yxnT said:

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1. Souta's field can turn into like 10 other fields if you have the right moves. DemICE beat him with a special attacking sneasal(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uwYVR0wsvA&list=PL2veEvNHoo8iZ_KTa8n8Cdd9SFFRojv6I&index=7) One smack down and one dig gives you a field where one of his weaknesses is boosted. Adam's own field can destroy him. Slap a bunch of seeds on your pokemon and you should be pretty close to beating him. As for the puppet masters, one of them is a stall team, so if you just focus on the one with the sweepers it becomes a 2v1. For the reborn fights you mentioned, a lot of those strategies are new to me since my recent runs have been monoruns. 

 

2. While your points may be true, those pokemon probably won't be on your team after Shade. Reborn forces you to change your team as you go. Rejuvenation gives you pokemon like  alolan grimer and rockruff before the first badge. In Reborn you have to wait until Agate to get those pokemon. 

 

3. As for those mods, I said that Reborn still wins in difficulty without them. 

 

Spoiler

1. Just because it can turn into 10 other fields doesn't make the fight marginally easier then anything else. Souta literally hits harder on Mountain Field then he does on Sky Field, and you only even get to do anything on Mountain Field after the 8 turns of Tailwind are up. 

You don't get enough Seeds to just "slap em on all your Pokemon" for Adam. Unlike Reborn, Rejuvenation does not sell delete buttons for fights. 

Your point on field changing is also null since if your point is that you can invalidate Souta via field changing to a field he doesn't like...you can do the same in reborn. What does Shelly do on Burning Field? What does Serra do after her field has been quaked? What does Charlotte do when her field is destroyed? The answer to all of these is simply, lose. So don't misunderstand and think just because Souta's field is suspectible to change that it means he's pathetic. 

 

2. If they aren't on your team after Shade, then that is on the player, not the game. My friend Azery has been destroying reborn effortlessly with a team of shitmons (Meganium, Swalot, Noivern. That whole deal.) I also think the fact that I'm still able to argue for difficulty despite being given those Pokemon should say something. Also, the second gym leader is fighting type. What's Rockruff and Alolan Grimer doing again? 

 

3. It doesn't since Intense Mode rejuv packs evs far earlier, has much more consistent difficulty, has new mechanics, special signature moves, Crests, Shadow Pokemon, and overall fights with more thought put into them. 

Regardless it was a non-point anyway. 

 

3 hours ago, Milotic said:

Lol I've already played thru V12 and I'm very familiar with how the game used to be vs how it is now and I have to say that the difficulty has defintely been toned down. You say the fights were horribly designed, I somewhat agree, but not only were the fights nerfed as a result, newer and better mons became available in areas that they weren't at first, then better items, access to EV rooms, more trainers, etc. Which goes back to my point about their priority being making the game better, as opposed to that challenging aspect. Which led Jan to introduce the different playing modes (Easy, Casual, Intense), for those who still wanted a kick of how the old rejuvantion used to be. In my experience Intense is challenging for sure, but with all the new techs available it will never seem as hard as the earlier versions of rejuvenation which is what my initial point was. Quickly addressing the gauntlet point, Im not sure why that is the first thing people go to when talking about reborn's difficulty as it is a series of battles that doesnt allow to change your team or strategy for each battle. I dont believe that it is the best example as it is meant to be a unfair challenge.

Spoiler

I guess if that was your point...then sure. But the difficulty is a lot more consistent, and being "nerfed" from absolutely broken and horribly designed doesn't mean easy, which is what I got that you were implying. There's no point comparing Rejuv to earlier versions of itself in a Reborn and Rejuv comparison thread. 

 

[Milotic]

17 minutes ago, Sceptilespy said:

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1. Just because it can turn into 10 other fields doesn't make the fight marginally easier then anything else. Souta literally hits harder on Mountain Field then he does on Sky Field, and you only even get to do anything on Mountain Field after the 8 turns of Tailwind are up. 

You don't get enough Seeds to just "slap em on all your Pokemon" for Adam. Unlike Reborn, Rejuvenation does not sell delete buttons for fights. 

Your point on field changing is also null since if your point is that you can invalidate Souta via field changing to a field he doesn't like...you can do the same in reborn. What does Shelly do on Burning Field? What does Serra do after her field has been quaked? What does Charlotte do when her field is destroyed? The answer to all of these is simply, lose. So don't misunderstand and think just because Souta's field is suspectible to change that it means he's pathetic. 

 

2. If they aren't on your team after Shade, then that is on the player, not the game. My friend Azery has been destroying reborn effortlessly with a team of shitmons (Meganium, Swalot, Noivern. That whole deal.) I also think the fact that I'm still able to argue for difficulty despite being given those Pokemon should say something. Also, the second gym leader is fighting type. What's Rockruff and Alolan Grimer doing again? 

 

3. It doesn't since Intense Mode rejuv packs evs far earlier, has much more consistent difficulty, has new mechanics, special signature moves, Crests, Shadow Pokemon, and overall fights with more thought put into them. 

Regardless it was a non-point anyway. 

 

  Hide contents

I guess if that was your point...then sure. But the difficulty is a lot more consistent, and being "nerfed" from absolutely broken and horribly designed doesn't mean easy, which is what I got that you were implying. There's no point comparing Rejuv to earlier versions of itself in a Reborn and Rejuv comparison thread. 

 

I wasnt comparing the two directly, I was just doing so to make a point to those who say reborn is outright harder than rejuvenation, or that rejuvenation feels more forgiving

[!!yxnT]

52 minutes ago, Sceptilespy said:

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1. Just because it can turn into 10 other fields doesn't make the fight marginally easier then anything else. Souta literally hits harder on Mountain Field then he does on Sky Field, and you only even get to do anything on Mountain Field after the 8 turns of Tailwind are up. 

You don't get enough Seeds to just "slap em on all your Pokemon" for Adam. Unlike Reborn, Rejuvenation does not sell delete buttons for fights. 

Your point on field changing is also null since if your point is that you can invalidate Souta via field changing to a field he doesn't like...you can do the same in reborn. What does Shelly do on Burning Field? What does Serra do after her field has been quaked? What does Charlotte do when her field is destroyed? The answer to all of these is simply, lose. So don't misunderstand and think just because Souta's field is suspectible to change that it means he's pathetic. 

 

2. If they aren't on your team after Shade, then that is on the player, not the game. My friend Azery has been destroying reborn effortlessly with a team of shitmons (Meganium, Swalot, Noivern. That whole deal.) I also think the fact that I'm still able to argue for difficulty despite being given those Pokemon should say something. Also, the second gym leader is fighting type. What's Rockruff and Alolan Grimer doing again? 

 

3. It doesn't since Intense Mode rejuv packs evs far earlier, has much more consistent difficulty, has new mechanics, special signature moves, Crests, Shadow Pokemon, and overall fights with more thought put into them. 

Regardless it was a non-point anyway. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I guess if that was your point...then sure. But the difficulty is a lot more consistent, and being "nerfed" from absolutely broken and horribly designed doesn't mean easy, which is what I got that you were implying. There's no point comparing Rejuv to earlier versions of itself in a Reborn and Rejuv comparison thread. 

 

Spoiler

1. When changing the field, no one uses the mountain field. Heavenly wing and fly both change it back to sky anyway. Most people use dig to change it into a cave. After this, there's no coming back for him. You can ignite the cave or freeze it over from there to further abuse him from there if you want to, but the cave field+nature power on a decently fast pokemon should be more than enough to beat him. As for his tailwind, there's nothing stopping you from setting it up yourself.

 

As for Adam, there are 10 magical seeds that you can get by that point in the game. With the right pokemon, you'll only need 2 or 3. Also wtf is a delete button?

 

You can't change the field to a burning field against Shelly because she leads with a prankster illumise that sets up rain dance. To change the field you'll have to stall for eight turns, then send out one of the few pokemon that can learn a move to change the field and not let it die to one of the 3 pokemon she has with water moves before it sets up the field. Not to mention she has an araquanid, who doesn't take fire damage from the field and is bulky enough to set up rain dance again

 

It's the same situation for Serra. Most of the pokemon who learn earthquake or magnitude by that level are both slow and weak to ice, except for quagsire and dugtrio. Even if you take out her field, she's still a threat with her hail team.

 

The only way to terminate Charlotte's field at that point in the game is with blizzard. By that point in the game, you have nothing that learns it naturally and can outspeed typhlosion before it uses eruption to change the field. Hail gets terminated so slush rush doesn't work. You can't send walrein out to tank the hits with thick fat because the field will be changed by the typhlosion by the time walrein gets to go the field will be transformed. Your only chance is to use surf with another pokemon and then get walrein to use blizzard, which still probably won't work because the darmanitan will use a boosted flare blitz on walrein and typhlosion will use eruption on both your mons, which is probably more than enough to kill them both. It's not realistic to terminate her field if you play without debug.

 

Simply put, reborn leaders have countermeasures to stop the fields from being changed, while rejuvenation leaders either lack them or have weak ones.

 

2. I'm saying that in reborn, most players can and do change their teams because it is then that a few good pokemon are introduced and shitmons start becoming shitmons. In rejuvenation, you are given usable pokemon right in the beginning of the game, therefore have no need to bother with shitmons(simple swoobat, stored power xatu, beeyeehem, espeon/umbreon, raichu, etc). rockruff and alolan grimer were just some of the many examples. As for your friend Azery, they are the creator of memeborn and a dev for rejuvenation, so I think they're probably a lot better at pokemon than an average player. If you're good enough, even shitmons become viable for the lategame.(btw, how is noivern bad? Boomburst, dragon pulse and hurricane by level is decent at worst)

 

 

 

 

[Commander]

Rejuv wars: Attack of the fanboys. Just going to chime in and mention not to get into too heated of an argument as that often leads to thread locks. I think the main points were already made by now.

[Myriad58]

I realise I'm probably coming in late to the conversation here, but I'd just like to give my takeaway from what I've read here.

 

I realise that most users of these forums are more serious about pokemon than the average player - hence the preferences to insane difficulty and acceptance for getting severely punished for not having an optimalised team.

 

Those people suggesting that high difficulty and grinding are undesirable do have a point - as those who would like to play for the story (it is rather compelling) may have to stop due to their skills being below that of a successful player. 

 

As as well as this, there is a serious time deficit to grinding, which may also be undesirable for a few players who'd rather not waste time on non story elements - at least - not 3 hours grinding levels or EVs for a particularly challenging fight.

 

I do really appreciate the game breakdowns- really interesting to read opinions backed up by personal experience. The points about struggling with viable strategies I totally get - the leaders in Reborn have some seriously strong "problem" Pokemon which can be demoralising at times... My first run was successful but I lost the save file after defeating terra without too much difficulty, however when I started over I got too caught up in training up "cool" Pokemon and I just ended up restarting

 

I noted the love for another game: Pokemon Desolation, and I look forward too seeing its story develop: less happy about an early difficulty spike but hopefully it Won't drive me off!

 

-I wonder if rejuvenation has a site back up somewhere

i didn't notice the site had been wiped until today

Edited November 26, 2019 by Myriad58
Wanted to ensure neutrality. At least as much as I can

[The Swordsman]

5 hours ago, Myriad58 said:

Those people suggesting that high difficulty and grinding are undesirable do have a point - as those who would like to play for the story (it is rather compelling) may have to stop due to their skills being below that of a successful player. 

I agree and its something I give Rejuvenation credit over Reborn for as it has difficulty levels without punishing the player for their choice. (as far as I'm aware) Part of the problem with Reborn's obsession with being difficult is that as of the currently released episode it has thrown away its tough but fair difficulty away for fake difficulty with Team Meteor's new machines. (only them though for now) I genuinely fear that there will come a day where the obsession gets so out of hand that you will be forced to use certain pokemon.

[kithas]

7 hours ago, The Swordsman said:

I agree and its something I give Rejuvenation credit over Reborn for as it has difficulty levels without punishing the player for their choice. (as far as I'm aware) Part of the problem with Reborn's obsession with being difficult is that as of the currently released episode it has thrown away its tough but fair difficulty away for fake difficulty with Team Meteor's new machines. (only them though for now) I genuinely fear that there will come a day where the obsession gets so out of hand that you will be forced to use certain pokemon.

I think the nearest we'll find will be  being forced, so to speak, to use certain tactics, as a Prankster Destiny Bond/Perish Song when facing enemies with a huge level gap to our own (like Solaris' garchomp in the Volcano) but as far as we've become, this would be impossible as I think we could take out some lvl 100 or two