Swift Swim, Exadrill and Chandelure

[Ikaru]

Right, that's why I specified "later on" and "with the advent of X and Y." At the latest, we can take these things into consideration when we do placement of the new Pokemon, yes?

[Bluewolf]

Creativity is what we're lacking and a lack of creativity makes the game boring and repetitive. Not to say that Chandy, Excadrill and swift swimmers are bad, their just too overused. By that I mean its way too easy for a beginner to make a team out of these pokemon in a matter of minutes and get to the top of the ladder in a matter of days. Yes I understand you wont be at the the top of the ladder as quick as you would like with Grunbull and Mightyena, but without creativity and diveristy strategy becomes useless and the spirit of the game, lost. No, Exca, Chandy and rain teams are not the only pokemon and sets repetitively used, to be honest my team even has some, but sending them to their own teir could be a step in a good direction, even if its only for two months. Who knows, X and Y could fix it all or cause new problems, we'll have to wait a see what the future holds.

In conclusion to my rambling lecture and in the queen's english; The reason why they came out with X and Y so early is partly due to the fact that pokemon has increasingly become repetitive and static. What better way to get fans excited again by making another region with a whole new set of pokemon to spice things up? Although most of this has almost nothing to do with said pokemon it seems like a pretty appropriate place to bring this up. Besides, Amethyst is the one making the decisions. So I'll trust her judgdement. And that's my opinion on the subject.

P.S. Im not even sure if I was completely lucid typing all of this. 'n_____n

[Cowtao]

Just a little something to keep in mind of everyone. It'll take months for the data from X and Y to transfer into Simulators considering;
A. Every single new sprite will be in 3D making it a pain to convert one of the stances to 2D pixels
B. We have no idea if Nintendo messed around with a few weaknesses with the Fairy types besides Dragon type. (Or any other types for that matter)
C. New moves and Pokemon will take time to know their stats and exactly what each new move does.

D. Potential new items and a plethora of new things implemented into the game

In total. That'll all take about 2 or 3 months tops. Mostly due to the fact that new Pixel work will be taking a long time when converting 3D to 2D. I do realize that i'm being a bit hypocritical on my other post but to be honest it's a valid argument because even if X and Y release it will take a very long time before any Simulators transfer the sprites, correct stats of EVs and IVs and the new moves effects. Or, they might just disregard all of this and upgrade their software from 2D to 3D. >>; I'm still a bit torn on this as 4 or 5 months doesn't sound too bad but it'll still leave some people pretty angry.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Cowtao

[Amethyst]

Valid concern. Honestly though, the sprites should be the only issue- it didn't take them more than a month to get BW onto PO. Trust me, I remember being veritably unprepared for it myself.

[Cowtao]

Well, this is a completely different type of sprite that they are dealing with. Either they are preparing to convert their software to accept the 3D sprites X and Y have or they will have a bad time with converting.

[Neo]

I'm certain that the PC/Pokedex. will have 2D sprites.

[slant]

The tiers are fine where they are, just because a group of people ladder competitively doesn't mean that you should start a discussion about them overall because you consider these tiers to be ruining competitive battling.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Ladder = numbers. Numbers don't matter. We don't have a ladder competition anymore so what's the point in caring about ladder rank?

Basically, until X and Y are released, I don't see any need of reviewing the tiers or changing anything about them. We've already given Kyurem-B to OverUsed, and made a Clear Skies tier. That, as previously stated, no one uses even after it was so widely wanted.

• This just does not make sense. Essentially you are saying "it's ok that the tiers suck because nobody cares about the ladder." This is just a flawed argument. If the tiers are broken, we should fix it. Why would you say no to improving something?

• From the voting results at this point it is pretty clear that people do care about the ladder, around a 66% - 33% split. Even if we do lose this vote later, it should be already be clear at this point that those who ladder are a significantly large group. Plus, I have a hard time understanding why people who don't ladder even care about tiering discussions. Who cares what the tiers are in that case? If you're just battling with your buddies, use whatever you like.

• You make it sound like we were thrown a bone in getting the CS tier and Kyu-B moved down to OU, so we should be happy with what we got. First off, we were right to get Kyurem-B moved down - I don't have access to the usage statistics, but I've seen like 3 of them on the ladder so far. Kyurem hardly unbalances the tier, so that was an improvement to the metagame.

• To be clear, the CS tier was introduced as a compromise for those people that asked for swift swim to be banned. It failed because people wanted a metagame where they could use weather, but not get beaten down by all the overpowered swift swimmers. This is why we're asking for swift swim to be banned again.

Seriously let's move past the 'us vs them' mentality and just focus on improving Reborn's metagame.

[Mczipo]

Reborn has a metagame? I thought it was just people bitching and moaning about every single thing that didn't go their way.

[Hyouka]

Reborn has a metagame? I thought it was just people bitching and moaning about every single thing that didn't go their way.

/thread

[Yuki]

i haven't read anything in the thread so excuse me if this has been talked about already but:

I don't think the tiers need moving around, but how the hell you gonna try to argue Swift Swim needs banning and not say anything about Sand Rush?

Like you talked about Excadrill

but he's only one of many obligatory head vs wall Pokemon I see in most sand teams

Why not just try to argue for SS Ludicolo ban?

Again though I don't think anything should be banned because a well-built team should already have checks in place, and if it doesn't, that's why we made Clear Skies.

[Godot]

I'm certain that the PC/Pokedex. will have 2D sprites.

Doubt it.... nintendo will want it to be in Threeeeeee deeeeeeee

[Kamina]

@Allan and Mczipo

Yes reborn does indeed have a meta-game in higher levels of play:] only bitch about things that need to be changed and that the majority think should be changed. That aside I think we should stay on topic and discuss about chand / Exadrill and swift swimmers and not go on random tangents.

@ket I did talk about exadrill it was even in my title if you didn’t read the thread at all

not editing

just going to make a new post -.-

[Yuki]

you need to refresh sir

Also I skimmed and haven't seen much in the way of anti- SS arguments

Like you left Slant's RMT and just left it at that but it's not Swift Swim that made it to the top of the ladder it's that particular team/person, through a lot more than a weather-abusing ability.

Hell my only weather team has a single abuser: Sand Power Gastrodon.

And I've never had so much of a problem with any weather that I've wanted it banned

[Neo]

I think it's fair to say at this point, Clear Skies not being popular is an invalid argument.

The entire idea behind the tier was to give you a place to not bitch about weather in. I almost saw it as a nonverbal agreement between the two parties stating:

"SS and SR aren't going anywhere, but you can have this tier to give you the best of both worlds".

Popularizing the tier isn't difficult either. Instead of OU tournaments, we have CS tournaments. Perhaps we can get nyu to make CS the auto tier.

There is no need to change OU when CS is around. ESPECIALLY when it was seen as a solution in the last discussion.

[Kamina]

@ Neo Although I would like to see more people laddering in CS it will not fix the fact that OU is broken here and should be fixed. I do remember such an agreement but after having more experience in the tier my opinion about swift swim and sand rush have evolved and I no longer see any need for keeping either of them when it is so apparent that they make this meta-game stale.

@Ket Exadrill is different in that it gets a speed boost in the sand and also has access to swords dance which means that if it is able to get one off than it will OHKO every single pokemon (except skarm) in the meta game even full health gliscor with iron head after stealth rocks damage. You could say garchomp could also work but it is pretty slow compared to other sweepers only reaching 331 speed with jolly nature and can easily be finished off with an ice move from a faster Pokémon. Slant has already explained that yes a well-made team with counters to those specific Pokémon but the counters to them are so little that you force everyone to run the same 1-2 Pokémon in their team all the time if they want to get any higher thus creating an over centralized meta-game.

To your second post, try laddering with that team and once you get to the higher levels you will notice how much of a problem they become.

[Mczipo]

If you say that the majority wants it changed, and I have no idea if they do or don't, what about the minority that doesn't want it to change. Everybody can't be happy. If something changes, a group of people won't like it, if something doesn't change, another group won't like it. It's impossible to please everyone.

As an added note, if you hate it so much and want it to change, why do you use it so religiously instead of taking a lot of time to make a good team that will reach the top.

Also, as a potentially quick fix to stop arguments, etc. Just ban pokemon with the instant weather setup like Politoed Drizzle, Hippowdon Sand Stream, etc. But keep the pokemon themselves. I suppose this could be a middle ground so that the weather users can keep their weather in OU, and those that have a problem with it can have an easier time against it.

[anethia]

If you say that the majority wants it changed, and I have no idea if they do or don't, what about the minority that doesn't want it to change. Everybody can't be happy. If something changes, a group of people won't like it, if something doesn't change, another group won't like it. It's impossible to please everyone.

As an added note, if you hate it so much and want it to change, why do you use it so religiously instead of taking a lot of time to make a good team that will reach the top.

Also, as a potentially quick fix to stop arguments, etc. Just ban pokemon with the instant weather setup like Politoed Drizzle, Hippowdon Sand Stream, etc. But keep the pokemon themselves. I suppose this could be a middle ground so that the weather users can keep their weather in OU, and those that have a problem with it can have an easier time against it.

Solid idea, but it might be iffy at some parts.

Anyway, here's a bit of Shirinui Logic.

Ban Rain abusers and Sand abusers = People focus on the only other viable weather: Sun.

Chandelure loves Sun.

Ban Him

Have no counter for ____

Ban that.

Have no counter for ____

ban that.

et cetera.

OR.

Ban Rain abusers and Exca and Chandy.

Everyone goes for sun.

Sun becomes overused.

People invent new ways to use sun.

People complain hardcore about sun.

And then we'd be in the same spot as we are right now.

This really is just my two cents, and it's my warped logic. Anything could go wrong with major shifts in the current tiers - make other things overpowered.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Amaterasu

[Kamina]

@Mczipo

The minority consist of people who do not ladder and don't want the change because it somehow takes away there identity or something like that (when it has no effect on them at all). I can almost guarantee that 90% of the people who voted NO have not recently competitively laddered in reborn.

I used those Pokemon so "religiously" because they are they only methods i can find to making it to the top. Outside of abusing weather the only other viable start that could potential to make it to the top is trick room that is all. If you read Slants RMT that i showed in thread he stated how he had tried a bunch of unique starts that all failed due to weather.

i think banning the swift swimmers / exadrill / chand is good enough.

@Anthesia

Slant already said in his first post how Sun abusers are different from their counterparts.

To address your slippery slope there really isn't any.

Its not like only 1 pokemon will replace exadrill 's role and 1 Pokemon will replace all the swift swimmers.

Them being banned will lead to the viability of many new Pokemon.

Of course if you were to play in the tiers forever they would ultimately become stale as well but that again is not a reason to not do a thing.

[Dark Desire]

Solid idea, but it might be iffy at some parts.

Anyway, here's a bit of Shirinui Logic.

Ban Rain abusers and Sand abusers = People focus on the only other viable weather: Sun.

Chandelure loves Sun.

Ban Him

Have no counter for ____

Ban that.

Have no counter for ____

ban that.

et cetera.

OR.

Ban Rain abusers and Exca and Chandy.

Everyone goes for sun.

Sun becomes overused.

People invent new ways to use sun.

People complain hardcore about sun.

And then we'd be in the same spot as we are right now.

This really is just my two cents, and it's my warped logic. Anything could go wrong with major shifts in the current tiers - make other things overpowered.

So hm, imo Chandy dosen't cover very many pokes that other pokes can't so i don't see a huge problem with other pokes not being countered...and about the sun being op thing if we did ban the Exca/Chandy ect., i mean, sun is a very good weather but it's still ravenged by SR and ground types still making it inferior to the other weathers in some ways even without those rain/sand abusers. But i'd actually enjoy sun being a prominent thing in Reborn's meta since hardly anyone runs it.

Also, since this topic is becoming like super huge in like no time, why don't we just set up a time/date to where most of us could all meet and discuss this? o.o

[Godot]

If we do ban those three things... I would like to add Genosect, Tornadus, and Jirachi...

They are in the same league imo

[Dark Desire]

Those three are questionable, Genesect with his wide move coverage so he's basically only countered by fire types and Tornadus with his stab Hurricane which just makes him a huge offensive threat i guess? But i don't see how Jirachi deserves to leave OU since the only thing that makes it good is his ability which really is just annoying to play around, also it's easy to take him down with the abondent ground types in OU already.

[Godot]

Despite how I feel about Jirachi... I'll let that one slide...

Tornadus's speed and sp attack stats are absurd...

And you would think beating genesect by fire is easy...

Fire is a type that is really underpowered due to Rain, Sand, and Stealth Rocks...

So why would I run a fire type other than Chandy?

The bug is a a bigger threat than Exca and Chandy imo...

Also... rain is just filled with OP brokeness in general...

Idk what removing swift swim will do honestly...

Also rain dish Ludi is scarrier to me than SS ludi

[Hyouka]

@Allan and Mczipo

Yes reborn does indeed have a meta-game in higher levels of play:] only bitch about things that need to be changed and that the majority think should be changed. That aside I think we should stay on topic and discuss about chand / Exadrill and swift swimmers and not go on random tangents.

I said nothing. I laughed and typed /thread because I wanted it done.

Also, lets just take half of OU and throw it in ubers. Imo this thread is a fucking joke.

[Swimming95]

As someone who has laddered pretty easily without using a weather team... I personally think that you guys just don't know how to team build well if you are having trouble with those pokemon. There are plenty of good fighting type pokemon or pokemon that resist ground/rock that can easily take on exacdrill.

Chandy is the one I am more incline to agree with but even so... there are plenty of good pokemon who aren't OHKOd by it (cough cough conkeldur and tyranitar) who can very easily kill it back. Chandy also can't run every single HP type so if you have pretty much any pokemon that resists fire or ghost, you are in the clear.

[Melody]

Alright, honestly...I can agree to removing Swift Swim, Exca, & Chandy. I don't much like the use of those and you're right. It'd provide a much more solid flow of the ladder, league, and a lot more thought process into team making entirely. Put me down as a yes, then.

I also wouldn't mind a discussion over Genesect either...He's kind of broken as it is next to a bunch of other pokemon.