theory Lin, Arceus, and Destiny's End

[MistressChara]

Gonna preface this by saying spoilers for the entire game, and that I am new to the forums so I apologize if some of this is already treaded ground.

I've been pondering on Reborn's lore and have come up with a few leads on where the story might go, most of it revolving around the "Destiny's end" book you can find in the Beryl Ward library.

So, we know that the Lin we see isn't real due to the way Anna speaks about her and the events with Titania. We also know that Team meteor is trying to bring Arceus forth from the meteor locked away below Citrae de Asta (may not have spelt that correctly.)

When reading the book titled "Destiny's end" it tells us that the Entropy from which all of existence was spawned created itself a form as a logical certainty and that this form was Arceus.
 

"In the beginning there was nothing, the non-existence was nearly perfect but in not being perfect existence was inevitable."
"That single successful instance of entropy-- a mere flaw in the fabric of non-existence was a tautological certainty."
"When the world as we know it was created, it was given form. At that time so did that which created it give itself form. This is the pokemon we know as Arceus."
 

It also tells us that there is a myth that a meteor brought Arceus to our world after the world was created, but also states that there is no way that could've happened frontward as meteors could not have existed without Arceus.
 

"The meteor enshrined below reborn is often said to be that upon which Arceus first came to this world. And while every piece of physical evidence would verify that claim, in reality it was only constructed to serve that purpose in whatever retrospect may have existed before the proccess of time was created. Those astronomic and geological events that would set a meteor in motion so as to crash onto our planet, were all determined long after they must have occured. Therefore, what is not to say that this world we are experiencing is the same? Every event that we experience must be the logical outcome of the past and what must happen in the future for Arceus to be realized."
"But Arceus is not complete, and so at that time did that which created this world also create a means for its new form to have been itself created."
 

These lines above are a bit confusing but clearly state that Arceus has yet to actually exist. This may not initially make sense but due to Arceus being a primordial god I want you to throw out your initial preconception of time and space.

When the universe first came into being, it was pure-nonexistence with an extremely minor flaw that spawned forth a great Entropy. This Entropy brought forth existence as a concept but needed a form with which to create the universe. In order to create this form it needed a cradle to bring itself into being and that cradle is all of existence that we currently experience. Everything that happens in the Pokemon universe and in reborn is just a series of events to complete Arceus and give it a form. Once Arceus is created then Arceus can retroactively create the universe and cause the events that will lead to it's own creation. Essentially the moment Arceus is created is the moment the universe truly begins alongside time and space.
 

I have no concrete ideas of what part Lin plays in the story, but our part is actually very obvious from the words of the destiny's end book. Characters have remarked many many times that we seem to be unstoppable and that a physical version of plot armor that seems to prevent us from failing or being injured by key events. This is almost certainly because we are instrumental in the resurrection of Arceus in some way, and we are unstoppable because Arceus has retroactively ensured that we awaken it.

My theory as to Lin's goals is completely speculative, but I believe she is the incomplete form of Arceus. We've heard her speak of bending reality and even seen it during the events of Episode 18. I believe that the Pulse Machine, The Meteor, Lin, and Us are the ingredients needed to finally complete Arceus and that completing herself is Lin's ultimate goal. It is a common theory that Lin is the all powerful child we hear speak to us at Citrae de Asta, the end of episode 18, this would seem to imply that she at least has SOME connection to Arceus and Citrae de Asta.
 

There is a fourth dimension to the story though, but I cannot back this up with any certainty. Somewhere in the game (please tell me where and what the exact text says because I cannot seem to find it again) There is an old man or a book that mentions that Giratina is also present in the Reborn region. If I remember correctly the text mentions that Pyrous Mountain used to be snowy and Ametrine used to be an active volcano, and that Giratina's arrival in the region caused Ametrine to freeze over and Pyrous to roar to life unexpectedly. They also name the exact location in which Giratina is slumbering which I believe was the mountains in the south east of the region, underneath Byxbysion Wasteland. Perhaps Giratina is responsible in some way for the rot that plagues the area?

I believe that Giratina will play a part in episode 19. Giratina often thought of as being the polar opposite to Arceus and having deep connections with the reborn region makes me think that it's role goes beyond being a post-game attraction.
 

What do you all think? Please tell me in the replies. (and please tell me where the Giratina info is found because I know it's in the game!!!)
I originally posted this on reddit but thought that I might be able to get a wider variety of thoughtful answers by posting it here.

Edited July 14, 2019 by MistressChara
Spelling error.

[Gabriel1]

I must say, this was a very interesting theory. That the plot armor would actually have an explication is intriguing to me.

 

There was a sidequest, however, that I recall. It ended with obtaining a crystal ball and having an old fortune teller tell us the story of an alternate Reborn, seemingly without the Protagonist. In it, Fern seemed to take our place, and this reality apparently ended in its total destruction. Where would that fit?

 

Finally, small nitpick; there is an abandonned PULSE machine under the wasteland, in the same room as a shiny, speaking Garbador. It is heavily implied that this Pokémon is the origin of all the waste.

[MistressChara]

Just now, Gabriel1 said:

I must say, this was a very interesting theory. That the plot armor would actually have an explication is intriguing to me.

 

There was a sidequest, however, that I recall. It ended with obtaining a crystal ball and having an old fortune teller tell us the story of an alternate Reborn, seemingly without the Protagonist. In it, Fern seemed to take our place, and this reality apparently ended in its total destruction. Where would that fit?

 

Finally, small nitpick; there is an abandonned PULSE machine under the wasteland, in the same room as a shiny, speaking Garbador. It is heavily implied that this Pokémon is the origin of all the waste.

Very true, I forgot about the PULSE Garbador and I do think that's much more likely.

The alternate timeline with fern completely loses me, I'd have to revisit the event with this theory in mind and see it's exact text to come up with anything concrete (and iirc I'd have to do another playthrough in order to see it again.) Though if I were to spitball a half baked explanation now I'd say it's probably because we never ensured Arceus awoke to create the universe, thus creating a paradox where Arceus could not have been born to create the universe and therefore none of the events Actually happened.

Funnily enough the "Destiny's End" book may have referenced this. It mentions that there were multiple entropies that came into being and "failed" before one finally came into being that succeeded in existing.

"When Entropy first came into being, it must have failed. And for the next infinite number of times Entropy was created, All of them must have also failed. However, eventually, one of them would not."

[Waynolt]

So, Arceus is essentially born as a stable time loop?
Actually makes sense...

About the timeline where the protagonist doesn't exist: I'd like to point out that Anna says that Lin doesn't exist, but also that the protagonist glows.
I'd also like to point out that, being the player character, the protagonist can reset time itself (F12) and even stop/resume it at will (simply by closing or launching the game). (Debug mode and RPGMaker might also be worth mentioning here...)
And that the protagonist is more of a spectator, with very little dialogue or initiative, and mostly just doing what someone else said.
And that Lin said the protagonist is working together with her (she might have been lying, but why would she seeing how powerful she is? Is she even known to have ever lied before or after that?)

So... if this is the final timeline, the one where Arceus is finally awakened... what if the protagonist is actually part of its being?
Maybe Lin is the will of Arceus, with no actual form; and the protagonist is the actual form of Arceus, with no will of its own. Yet.

[MistressChara]

2 minutes ago, Waynolt said:

So, Arceus essentially exists as a stable time loop?
Actually makes sense...

About the timeline where the protagonist doesn't exist: I'd like to point out that Anna says that Lin doesn't exist, but also that the protagonist glows.
I'd also like to point out that, being the player character, the protagonist can reset time itself (F12) and even stop/resume it at will (simply by closing or launching the game). (Debug mode and RPGMaker might also be worth mentioning here...)
And that the protagonist is more of a spectator, with very little dialogue or initiative, and mostly just doing what someone else said.
And that Lin said the protagonist is working together with her (she might have been lying, but why would she seeing how powerful she is? Is she even known to have ever lied before or after that?)

So... what if this is the final timeline, the one where Arceus is finally awakened?
And what if the protagonist is actually it?
Maybe Lin is the will of Arceus, with no actual form; and the protagonist is the actual form of Arceus, with no actual will of its own. Yet.

That's a really really good point, if you take the actual game mechanics literally then both us and Lin have powers beyond what normal people do. I don't know if we have no will at all due to the ability to make route altering choices, but we definitely are railroaded along a set path. If you are correct then that would mean that Lin's ultimate goals is to fuse with us in order to create Arceus? 

Speaking of which I wonder how the alternate routes and choices will affect the ending if at all.

[Gabriel1]

23 minutes ago, Waynolt said:

So, Arceus is essentially born as a stable time loop?
Actually makes sense...

About the timeline where the protagonist doesn't exist: I'd like to point out that Anna says that Lin doesn't exist, but also that the protagonist glows.
I'd also like to point out that, being the player character, the protagonist can reset time itself (F12) and even stop/resume it at will (simply by closing or launching the game). (Debug mode and RPGMaker might also be worth mentioning here...)
And that the protagonist is more of a spectator, with very little dialogue or initiative, and mostly just doing what someone else said.
And that Lin said the protagonist is working together with her (she might have been lying, but why would she seeing how powerful she is? Is she even known to have ever lied before or after that?)

So... if this is the final timeline, the one where Arceus is finally awakened... what if the protagonist is actually part of its being?
Maybe Lin is the will of Arceus, with no actual form; and the protagonist is the actual form of Arceus, with no will of its own. Yet.

Basically, we would be a more powerful version of Undertale's protag?

 

Also, I'm pretty sure someone must have said it already, but I have never seen such a cute Drapion before!

[Lord Drakyle]

1 hour ago, MistressChara said:

Very true, I forgot about the PULSE Garbador and I do think that's much more likely.

The alternate timeline with fern completely loses me, I'd have to revisit the event with this theory in mind and see it's exact text to come up with anything concrete (and iirc I'd have to do another playthrough in order to see it again.) Though if I were to spitball a half baked explanation now I'd say it's probably because we never ensured Arceus awoke to create the universe, thus creating a paradox where Arceus could not have been born to create the universe and therefore none of the events Actually happened.

Funnily enough the "Destiny's End" book may have referenced this. It mentions that there were multiple entropies that came into being and "failed" before one finally came into being that succeeded in existing.

"When Entropy first came into being, it must have failed. And for the next infinite number of times Entropy was created, All of them must have also failed. However, eventually, one of them would not."

Is it possible that the 'Entropy' existing, the flaw and the fact the meteor before the concepts necessary to set it on collision course already crashed on the planet and all these other factors are like a looping series of events? The Universe itself trying to correct that one flaw that existence and in each event where the existence takes form it creates the world but it isn't perfect so it restarts the cycle making changes tweaking certain events so that the events will run their course again but the difference being the one opposing the forces that try to bring about the birth of this flaw, that one opposing force, constantly changing until the universe gets it right, until it can pick the right MC, Lin being able to summon something from nothing might actually be the Entropy summoning what it needed to make itself exist because that entropy is still a part of the universe even if just a flaw, an imperfection and it's likely only those no longer bound by life and those who can see beyond the surface view of the world (Shade and Anna) can truly see everything in motion even when the world repeats events where a new hero is chosen.

Ever thought it's too coincidental that we happened to be talking to Ame when Shade appears and suddenly she notices the danger and saves us? Ever thought it's weird how we seem to radiate a glowing aura to Anna how despite all the odds, we still manage to find our way to gym leaders to gain a badge from when others struggle greatly and how Lin could have killed us but she didn't? How we could have wandered the void lost forever but Shade brought us out? How despite everything while hypnotized no one could stop us not one of our friends even when teamed up? Radomus noticed it just slightly, an outer force is likely making us unstoppable. because until the final act where the loop ends and restarts, The Hero has to react that act, nothing must stop them it's likely a game to the Entropy or somehow it too knows we have to be their at the final act for it's own birth to happen even if it means the world will restart itself again because it's likely the only events where it has ever seen it's own birth able to happen is when the Universe's chosen weapon...chosen hero fails to stop it at the place of it's birth, it knows because it happened before but it probably hasn't seen any other ending to the Universe's hero's journey to try stop it and likely doesn't wanna risk deviating from the script in case it prevents it's own birth.

[Egzample]

Just little addition, iirc it is sometimes implied that the Arceus is a >baby< Arceus, so this fact might be fitted into this so the Arceus we talk about is indeed not ''fully developed'' Arceus. Also, Lin is theorised to be an avatar, so we may join it togheter and assume Lin is an Arceus's avatar. I prefer the version of story in which Lin is trapped with Arceus and adult Lin is their way to manipulate their way out of the Citae's trap and set New World Order or whatever goal they want, but this is also interesting one.

 

I got a feeling like you guys go a little bit too far with us being literal part of Arceus, rather a key tool - we are fulfilling our destiny. The equation is resolved so we receive the exact entropy value (events, people, actions, items) needed to crate the New World, whatever it is. There are many factors, from Fern to Anna, which are parts of the eqation, but only every part in the exact place, including us and our actions, gives correct result, which is Arceus/Lin reaching goals. Also, probably these are our goals too, but we dont know it yet.

 

Generally speaking, Lin is our counterpart, with the abilities equivalent to save, soft reset, etc., she wants to destroy and/or reshape the Reborn.

[Oldjay444]

Quote

There is a fourth dimension to the story though, but I cannot back this up with any certainty. Somewhere in the game (please tell me where and what the exact text says because I cannot seem to find it again) There is an old man or a book that mentions that Giratina is also present in the Reborn region. If I remember correctly the text mentions that Pyrous Mountain used to be snowy and Ametrine used to be an active volcano, and that Giratina's arrival in the region caused Ametrine to freeze over and Pyrous to roar to life unexpectedly. They also name the exact location in which Giratina is slumbering which I believe was the mountains in the south east of the region, underneath Byxbysion Wasteland. Perhaps Giratina is responsible in some way for the rot that plagues the area?

I believe that Giratina will play a part in episode 19. Giratina often thought of as being the polar opposite to Arceus and having deep connections with the reborn region makes me think that it's role goes beyond being a post-game attraction.

Perhaps you found it already but the guy that speaks of this is a geologist in the Jasper Ward, in a house near the north entrance to the malchous forest, I believe. I do think there is something greater going on on the wasteland, I know about the pulse Gardorbor, but the way in which the wasteland "behaves" (like in the beldum event) can suggest otherwise. Of course, it could just be just "break the fourth wall" jokes too. 

[nhehvnukl]

On 7/15/2019 at 1:45 AM, MistressChara said:

Gonna preface this by saying spoilers for the entire game, and that I am new to the forums so I apologize if some of this is already treaded ground.

I've been pondering on Reborn's lore and have come up with a few leads on where the story might go, most of it revolving around the "Destiny's end" book you can find in the Beryl Ward library.

So, we know that the Lin we see isn't real due to the way Anna speaks about her and the events with Titania. We also know that Team meteor is trying to bring Arceus forth from the meteor locked away below Citrae de Asta (may not have spelt that correctly.)

When reading the book titled "Destiny's end" it tells us that the Entropy from which all of existence was spawned created itself a form as a logical certainty and that this form was Arceus.
 

"In the beginning there was nothing, the non-existence was nearly perfect but in not being perfect existence was inevitable."
"That single successful instance of entropy-- a mere flaw in the fabric of non-existence was a tautological certainty."
"When the world as we know it was created, it was given form. At that time so did that which created it give itself form. This is the pokemon we know as Arceus."
 

It also tells us that there is a myth that a meteor brought Arceus to our world after the world was created, but also states that there is no way that could've happened frontward as meteors could not have existed without Arceus.
 

"The meteor enshrined below reborn is often said to be that upon which Arceus first came to this world. And while every piece of physical evidence would verify that claim, in reality it was only constructed to serve that purpose in whatever retrospect may have existed before the proccess of time was created. Those astronomic and geological events that would set a meteor in motion so as to crash onto our planet, were all determined long after they must have occured. Therefore, what is not to say that this world we are experiencing is the same? Every event that we experience must be the logical outcome of the past and what must happen in the future for Arceus to be realized."
"But Arceus is not complete, and so at that time did that which created this world also create a means for its new form to have been itself created."
 

These lines above are a bit confusing but clearly state that Arceus has yet to actually exist. This may not initially make sense but due to Arceus being a primordial god I want you to throw out your initial preconception of time and space.

When the universe first came into being, it was pure-nonexistence with an extremely minor flaw that spawned forth a great Entropy. This Entropy brought forth existence as a concept but needed a form with which to create the universe. In order to create this form it needed a cradle to bring itself into being and that cradle is all of existence that we currently experience. Everything that happens in the Pokemon universe and in reborn is just a series of events to complete Arceus and give it a form. Once Arceus is created then Arceus can retroactively create the universe and cause the events that will lead to it's own creation. Essentially the moment Arceus is created is the moment the universe truly begins alongside time and space.
 

I have no concrete ideas of what part Lin plays in the story, but our part is actually very obvious from the words of the destiny's end book. Characters have remarked many many times that we seem to be unstoppable and that a physical version of plot armor that seems to prevent us from failing or being injured by key events. This is almost certainly because we are instrumental in the resurrection of Arceus in some way, and we are unstoppable because Arceus has retroactively ensured that we awaken it.

My theory as to Lin's goals is completely speculative, but I believe she is the incomplete form of Arceus. We've heard her speak of bending reality and even seen it during the events of Episode 18. I believe that the Pulse Machine, The Meteor, Lin, and Us are the ingredients needed to finally complete Arceus and that completing herself is Lin's ultimate goal. It is a common theory that Lin is the all powerful child we hear speak to us at Citrae de Asta, the end of episode 18, this would seem to imply that she at least has SOME connection to Arceus and Citrae de Asta.
 

There is a fourth dimension to the story though, but I cannot back this up with any certainty. Somewhere in the game (please tell me where and what the exact text says because I cannot seem to find it again) There is an old man or a book that mentions that Giratina is also present in the Reborn region. If I remember correctly the text mentions that Pyrous Mountain used to be snowy and Ametrine used to be an active volcano, and that Giratina's arrival in the region caused Ametrine to freeze over and Pyrous to roar to life unexpectedly. They also name the exact location in which Giratina is slumbering which I believe was the mountains in the south east of the region, underneath Byxbysion Wasteland. Perhaps Giratina is responsible in some way for the rot that plagues the area?

I believe that Giratina will play a part in episode 19. Giratina often thought of as being the polar opposite to Arceus and having deep connections with the reborn region makes me think that it's role goes beyond being a post-game attraction.
 

What do you all think? Please tell me in the replies. (and please tell me where the Giratina info is found because I know it's in the game!!!)
I originally posted this on reddit but thought that I might be able to get a wider variety of thoughtful answers by posting it here.

In the Reshiram route, if you bring Taka to mirage tower's end he says something about it being a place for people to train to combat giratinas's powers or something of that sort.