enderowl Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) Hello Everyone who stopped by and see this thread. Since the V13 Status Thread is locked due to the reasoning that we go off topic from the main focus of the main thread. I thought that I should make an unofficial discussion thread for version 13. You can talk about the progress of the version, your hype for the game, the story, or theories that you might have for the next version. I only ask for four things so that this discussion can go smoothly. 1. Please be respectful towards other people and their opinions. 2. Don't go off topic from what this thread is about. 3. Be patient for when the version of the game will come out. 4. Have fun. I don't know if I can make this type of thread or not. I just want people to have something to do while waiting for the next version of the game and that I apologize for any rules that I might of broken by making this thread. Finally, shout out to the developers of Pokemon Rejuvenation for making this awesome fan game and letting us play it! Edit: Forgot to put up a link towards the V13 Status Thread, so here it is. Edited October 20, 2019 by enderowl 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderowl Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 I think it is related to Bladestar because of the colors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterans Falirion Posted October 20, 2019 Veterans Share Posted October 20, 2019 Considering the Title of the next Version and just how wierd that place looks, i'd guess thats some sort of Puppetmaster alternate World, like Nightmare City (well duuuh), The Green(ish) on that Building...thing? is the exact same tone as Bladestars color, and then there is Kenneth... what is even going on with Kenneth? So at a guess Puppetmaster messing with the Interceptor and probably Aelita (because Kenneth) again, to what end? who even knows, the guy is an Enigma, wrapped in Mystery, hidden behind a Secret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcaneArceus Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 So we left v12 with Alexandra wanting everyone to meat in Eclysia, and Melia, Erin, Alice, and Allen are all siblings - most likely Anathea and Indriad's children. I hope that before the Puppet Master stuff, we at least get to see something with Anathea and the Soul Stone item. Also, any theories on Nancy's Black Box? Based on Nastasia, it seems pretty important, but nothing really seems to be going on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderowl Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think with Narcy's Black Box is that it is going to hold the mega ring, since in the Q&A that the Devs did during the summer said that we are going to be able to get the Mega Ring without doing any tedious side quest to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowry Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 12:08 AM, enderowl said: I think with Narcy's Black Box is that it is going to hold the mega ring, since in the Q&A that the Devs did during the summer said that we are going to be able to get the Mega Ring without doing any tedious side quest to get it. Expand Thank god there are no more return other's mons quest like in Reborn that quest is very tedious, on other note good job creating this thread, a shame that we cant rant in the official thread anymore i love hearing other people theories, but hey as long as it works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kikss Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Still not sure what I should think of the Puppet Master, first he seems like he wants to help the player and his friends, but after replaying the game I noticed that he is actually the one who gives Melia and Erin the tickets for the Grand dream ball, so unless he didn´t know that Flora was gonna blow this one up it seems like he wanted them to be killed or can anybody think of another reason why he gave them the tickets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterans Falirion Posted October 21, 2019 Veterans Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) On 10/21/2019 at 2:01 PM, Kikss said: Still not sure what I should think of the Puppet Master, first he seems like he wants to help the player and his friends, but after replaying the game I noticed that he is actually the one who gives Melia and Erin the tickets for the Grand dream ball, so unless he didn´t know that Flora was gonna blow this one up it seems like he wanted them to be killed or can anybody think of another reason why he gave them the tickets? Expand That's what i meant really, not quite sure where the Puppetmaster stands, in general, an Enigma. Crescent has a similiar issue to me, but with Crescent we at least can be sure she is against Team Xen if nothing else... still only trust her about as far as I can throw her Mewtwo without dieing. But i somewhat doubt that the Puppetmaster wanted Melia and Erin (well he might not have cared about Erin in particular) dead, at least immediatly so, his type wouldn't be this direct about this, but considering the whole of Nightmare City and all he probably knew all about Flora's Plan. I am about 70% that the tickets weren't an assassination attempt, but has probably a more indirect reason... we really don't know enough about the guy to say anything definitiv, i think. Edited October 21, 2019 by Falirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcaneArceus Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) Well, the GDB did lead to Amanda's reveal/fight along with the big sibling reveal. That also led to whole Hiroshi City/Zone Zero adventure which revealed a lot, including Eclysia Pyramid being a secret Garufa spaceship and how the Interceptor can't leave the planet. Zone Zero also has that one house where the player has had some past memories which I hope is important. I'd say the the Puppet Master likely wants to help us in it's own strange way. On Crescent, I do wonder if she is corrupted Nymeria. The skin tone/hair color do match and based on Cella/Cera and Anju/Angie it kinda? makes sense. Edited October 21, 2019 by ArcaneArceus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterans Falirion Posted October 21, 2019 Veterans Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) On 10/21/2019 at 2:25 PM, ArcaneArceus said: Well, the GDB did lead to Amanda's reveal/fight along with the big sibling reveal. That also led to whole Hiroshi City/Zone Zero adventure which revealed a lot, including Eclysia Pyramid being a secret Garufa spaceship and how the Interceptor can't leave the planet. Zone Zero also has that one house where the player has had some past memories which I hope is important. I'd say the the Puppet Master likely wants to help us in it's own strange way. On Crescent, I do wonder if she is corrupted Nymeria. The skin tone/hair color do match and based on Cella/Cera and Anju/Angie it kinda? makes sense. Expand The question is less if the Puppetmaster (currently) wants to help us with his actions, and more how and in what way his help of the Player, Melia, Aelita etc. is supposed to help him, and whether thats a good thing or not, thats why Puppetmaster types are very hard to trust, there is always an ulterior motive. That's my main distrust on Crescent to, sure she safes the Player's skin a few times (although she pulls BS on the revive on Valor Mountain.... the 2 people she seperatly "brings back" both are able to do so under their own power apparently, atleast if Damian is to be believed about Nim) but why does she want them in Aevium anyway, and away from Melia (unless she is REALLY good a reverse psychology), it was her call to move the Player to Aevium. Crescent = Nymeria? eeeeh it's not impossible i guess... but the skin tone is actually way off. Reveal hidden contents <Nymeria <Crescent Taken directly from rejuvs Graphics folder Edit: also not quite sure what you mean with Cella/Cera? Cella is Eldest, i thought the game makes that pretty clear Edited October 21, 2019 by Falirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcaneArceus Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Yeah, the Crescent thing was mostly off memory, I looked back 15 minutes later, and they are way off. Anyway, I do agree that both Crescent and the Puppet Master are wild cards, but I still think that the Puppet Master is more towards the benevolent type of character. By the Cera/Cella thing, it's a bit hard to explain, but sort of like how in past Aevium, Anju and the Eldest were friends and the Eldest was almost Anju's servant. Anju was captured by Indriad and somehow Angie popped up, complete with her servant Cera. Just based off of names and dynamic, I guessed that Cera was sort of an Indriad-ified version of Cella. Sorry if this theory seems out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reginald Sanshire Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Do you guys think Madame X either knows, or will find out, that Nastasia and Ren went on that "unauthorized" mission to the Eclysia Pyramid? And if so, how screwed do you think they, and the rest of the Team Xen grunts involved with it, will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterans Falirion Posted October 24, 2019 Veterans Share Posted October 24, 2019 On 10/24/2019 at 7:43 AM, Reginald Sanshire said: Do you guys think Madame X either knows, or will find out, that Nastasia and Ren went on that "unauthorized" mission to the Eclysia Pyramid? And if so, how screwed do you think they, and the rest of the Team Xen grunts involved with it, will be? Expand That's a good point actually, Nastasia pulled this entire secret mission, with people that have hindered Team Xen in the past, at least one of which Madame X has wanted dead at one point (player), but on the other hand one of the reasons for that was to save Melia's Life (who is needed alive by Team Xen for something...) and while that wasn't Melia in the end the reason is sound, so in the end it's probably down to how well Nastatasia can talk her way through this mess. It's still interesting that one of the last Xen Admins that we know went against Madame X at this point, leaving aside Neved (kind of like the game does for the most part), they are all either Incapacitated (Zetta, Geara). Demoted and Shamed (Madelis) or kind of traitorours (Nastasia). Also I still don't quite get why she brought Petriefied Venam along for this and made a huge secret about it... what reason does she have to care about Venam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aphelli Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) Reveal hidden contents On 10/24/2019 at 9:30 AM, Falirion said: That's a good point actually, Nastasia pulled this entire secret mission, with people that have hindered Team Xen in the past, at least one of which Madame X has wanted dead at one point (player), but on the other hand one of the reasons for that was to save Melia's Life (who is needed alive by Team Xen for something...) and while that wasn't Melia in the end the reason is sound, so in the end it's probably down to how well Nastatasia can talk her way through this mess. It's still interesting that one of the last Xen Admins that we know went against Madame X at this point, leaving aside Neved (kind of like the game does for the most part), they are all either Incapacitated (Zetta, Geara). Demoted and Shamed (Madelis) or kind of traitorours (Nastasia). Also I still don't quite get why she brought Petriefied Venam along for this and made a huge secret about it... what reason does she have to care about Venam? Expand About the Venam rescue part, I suppose I can hazard a few guesses. Nastasia doesn't want anyone to find out that she brought Venam because 1) Madame X's direct subordinates will see it as directly helping the enemy. Indeed, Madame X has personally witnessed that Venam somehow enabled Melia's power to awaken. 2) None of the "good guys" will trust her 3) She doesn't even know if this is going to work About why she cares about Venam -- either she remembers her as the girl who advocated for giving her breaks (in the first trip to Kugearen City), which seems far-fetched, or maybe the new Venam (looks like she's had at last her epiphany) saved her in her past and she feels like she owes her something. I feel the second hypothesis is much more likely, and a typical response from a "universe in a tight spot" that generates circular causality to save itself. It seems significantly shadier that Nastasia lets Ren return "loot" from Nancy to the MC, even sentimental, let alone the "Black Box". There are a couple of points I wanted to mention as well, but these feature (spoilers from WLL, V12 and) the results of the game files exploration by someone I can't remember, so I'll put them in further spoilers. Reveal hidden contents There's something very, very strange with Madame X's goals and means. She has a Time Diamond, and, thanks to Freya (I think she's the red-haired Naganadel/Beeheyem wielder?), has access to very effective mind control. There's about the entire realm of fan-fiction (and much of sci-fi as well) to explore just how broken each of these abilities is. Two at once? She should be able to accomplish anything without a sweat. So maybe there's more some kind of circumstance alliance between Freya and Team Xen. She's admitted she wants Melia's power for... something? But is it really to recreate Storm-9 (the nature of which hasn't been precised so far, but we may probably assume it's the damped version by Vivian's sacrifice of "Indriad's gift")? Can we actually trust the Stormchasers on that point? And Freya seemed intent on reopening the Amethyst Grotto in WLL -- is it the same plot for the same goal? There's also a very out-of-character scene, when Madame X confronts Madelis on her failures. She says in one sentence that "alone we are nothing, together we make an unstoppable force" and calls Madelis a "worm" in the very next, which seems like some sort of contradiction -- especially when you remember that she's butchered many Team Xen members upon hearing of Melia's death. So, and here I'm joining my main point back, what help is Team Xen to Madame X? This question can probably be asked for every over-powered villain in any work, but I think it's quite blatant here. Finally, someone did some digging and found that Risa Raider's Jigglypuff had the same stats and ability as a Naganadel... Risa Raider actually existed, but went seriously ill when she was 12, got "miraculously" cured by the shady and Xen-affiliated Dr. Isha, got seen with Team Xen (ostensibly to fight them, while attending a stupidly demanding university and being a full-time actress). Am I the only one thinking this is too much? That a more reasonable explanation is that Isha, out of love for his reputation and success rate, let Freya "imperson" the actually-deceased Risa Raider? That (at least on stage, it's a different matter on screen altogether) a powerful and trained mind-controller/delusion-maker makes a great actor/actress? That you don't even need mind-control to make ambiguous the side you work for in a conflict situation? Reveal hidden contents That Texen will spectacularly redeem himself by spotting the fake at a critical time? About Crescent... Upon re-reading most of her dialog she really is tough to figure out (let alone the Puppet Master). But there are assumptions we can reasonably make. She probably helps fake Melia's death "in good faith" for the Stormchasers (I'm assuming each time we see Crescent, she's already lived through the previous encounters in her timeline). She leaves shortly after. What happens shortly after? Ren starts acting as her mole. What, if Ren's information actually provided irrefutable proof to Crescent that, the situation was more complex than the Stormchasers had led her to believe? That, while Team Xen is evil, they're actually preventing some power vacuum that would let something bigger and badder take over, or the Xens are secretly manipulating the Stormchasers, or something else? Another interesting part is her ordering Nim (and, I suppose, Nancy) around. If Damian is to be trusted (he's probably not), Nim is some sort of cosmic-scale eldritch abomination... who obeys Crescent without arguing. And what are Crescent's instructions? Go to GDC, turn Gym Leaders to stone, and don't hurt Guzma, but she may target Melia/Venam. What are the consequences? The city is dismayed, restless, so Cassandra's (so Team Xen's) clout is reduced; more long-term, Nim/Lorna might go and break against Melia's light (since it supposedly healed the entire Earth and she's able to use it now). There are at least two issues with the last idea, though: first, the long-term plan really sounds like an insane gamble. Second, if her plan was to dismay the city, it backfired very spectacularly after Cassandra lived through the explosion (or more likely used another robotic body) and destroyed Bladestar. I suppose she can send Nim to frighten the city again, but with the Spring accessible, she's not that much of a threat. I'm not sure how much spoilers are allowed, so I'm posting all the somewhat "sensitive" text in spoilers. So anyway there's definitely more to the plot (none of the above seems to tie in with Bladestar, Indriad, Amanda, Nymeria...) , but that's what the next version is for. Edited October 24, 2019 by Mindlack 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcaneArceus Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) Reveal hidden contents On 10/24/2019 at 10:40 PM, Mindlack said: Finally, someone did some digging and found that Risa Raider's Jigglypuff had the same stats and ability as a Naganadel... Risa Raider actually existed, but went seriously ill when she was 12, got "miraculously" cured by the shady and Xen-affiliated Dr. Isha, got seen with Team Xen (ostensibly to fight them, while attending a stupidly demanding university and being a full-time actress). Am I the only one thinking this is too much? That a more reasonable explanation is that Isha, out of love for his reputation and success rate, let Freya "imperson" the actually-deceased Risa Raider? Expand I have to agree with that. I did a bit of moveset searching, and Nagandel was the closest match to Tuffpuff that I could find. I would have to agree with the theory that Risa is dead and replaced by Freya. Back to Indriad and Madame X for a bit. Yveltal seems to be Madame X's signature pokemon, and in a Team Xen lab under the secret shore there is a model of Yveltal's cocoon with a journal saying that it's how he sees. Now, to me, Indriad seems to be a very dark, deathlike figure, and I wouldn't consider it out of the picture for him to have used Yveltal to spy on outside the world. Then there's the fact that Madame X has captured Yveltal, maybe to control it or keep an eye on it? Overall, I have to think that Madame X isn't the pure evil she's made out to be, and actually has an anti-Indriad agenda. And then there's the prologue where Madame X walks in to warn Maria about her father, Indriad's, experiments downstairs and her mother's murder. It could be that Madame X is secretly good, but is under threat of Yveltal/Indriad to stay in line. Then Nastasia. I agree with most of what you said, but I would like to add that perhaps Nastasia, who we know to have survived the Calamity, knows something about Madame X that we don't and wants to find a way to defeat Yveltal? Just kinda spitballing ideas. Edited October 25, 2019 by ArcaneArceus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhehvnukl Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/24/2019 at 10:40 PM, Mindlack said: Reveal hidden contents About the Venam rescue part, I suppose I can hazard a few guesses. Nastasia doesn't want anyone to find out that she brought Venam because 1) Madame X's direct subordinates will see it as directly helping the enemy. Indeed, Madame X has personally witnessed that Venam somehow enabled Melia's power to awaken. 2) None of the "good guys" will trust her 3) She doesn't even know if this is going to work About why she cares about Venam -- either she remembers her as the girl who advocated for giving her breaks (in the first trip to Kugearen City), which seems far-fetched, or maybe the new Venam (looks like she's had at last her epiphany) saved her in her past and she feels like she owes her something. I feel the second hypothesis is much more likely, and a typical response from a "universe in a tight spot" that generates circular causality to save itself. It seems significantly shadier that Nastasia lets Ren return "loot" from Nancy to the MC, even sentimental, let alone the "Black Box". There are a couple of points I wanted to mention as well, but these feature (spoilers from WLL, V12 and) the results of the game files exploration by someone I can't remember, so I'll put them in further spoilers. Reveal hidden contents There's something very, very strange with Madame X's goals and means. She has a Time Diamond, and, thanks to Freya (I think she's the red-haired Naganadel/Beeheyem wielder?), has access to very effective mind control. There's about the entire realm of fan-fiction (and much of sci-fi as well) to explore just how broken each of these abilities is. Two at once? She should be able to accomplish anything without a sweat. So maybe there's more some kind of circumstance alliance between Freya and Team Xen. She's admitted she wants Melia's power for... something? But is it really to recreate Storm-9 (the nature of which hasn't been precised so far, but we may probably assume it's the damped version by Vivian's sacrifice of "Indriad's gift")? Can we actually trust the Stormchasers on that point? And Freya seemed intent on reopening the Amethyst Grotto in WLL -- is it the same plot for the same goal? There's also a very out-of-character scene, when Madame X confronts Madelis on her failures. She says in one sentence that "alone we are nothing, together we make an unstoppable force" and calls Madelis a "worm" in the very next, which seems like some sort of contradiction -- especially when you remember that she's butchered many Team Xen members upon hearing of Melia's death. So, and here I'm joining my main point back, what help is Team Xen to Madame X? This question can probably be asked for every over-powered villain in any work, but I think it's quite blatant here. Finally, someone did some digging and found that Risa Raider's Jigglypuff had the same stats and ability as a Naganadel... Risa Raider actually existed, but went seriously ill when she was 12, got "miraculously" cured by the shady and Xen-affiliated Dr. Isha, got seen with Team Xen (ostensibly to fight them, while attending a stupidly demanding university and being a full-time actress). Am I the only one thinking this is too much? That a more reasonable explanation is that Isha, out of love for his reputation and success rate, let Freya "imperson" the actually-deceased Risa Raider? That (at least on stage, it's a different matter on screen altogether) a powerful and trained mind-controller/delusion-maker makes a great actor/actress? That you don't even need mind-control to make ambiguous the side you work for in a conflict situation? Reveal hidden contents That Texen will spectacularly redeem himself by spotting the fake at a critical time? About Crescent... Upon re-reading most of her dialog she really is tough to figure out (let alone the Puppet Master). But there are assumptions we can reasonably make. She probably helps fake Melia's death "in good faith" for the Stormchasers (I'm assuming each time we see Crescent, she's already lived through the previous encounters in her timeline). She leaves shortly after. What happens shortly after? Ren starts acting as her mole. What, if Ren's information actually provided irrefutable proof to Crescent that, the situation was more complex than the Stormchasers had led her to believe? That, while Team Xen is evil, they're actually preventing some power vacuum that would let something bigger and badder take over, or the Xens are secretly manipulating the Stormchasers, or something else? Another interesting part is her ordering Nim (and, I suppose, Nancy) around. If Damian is to be trusted (he's probably not), Nim is some sort of cosmic-scale eldritch abomination... who obeys Crescent without arguing. And what are Crescent's instructions? Go to GDC, turn Gym Leaders to stone, and don't hurt Guzma, but she may target Melia/Venam. What are the consequences? The city is dismayed, restless, so Cassandra's (so Team Xen's) clout is reduced; more long-term, Nim/Lorna might go and break against Melia's light (since it supposedly healed the entire Earth and she's able to use it now). There are at least two issues with the last idea, though: first, the long-term plan really sounds like an insane gamble. Second, if her plan was to dismay the city, it backfired very spectacularly after Cassandra lived through the explosion (or more likely used another robotic body) and destroyed Bladestar. I suppose she can send Nim to frighten the city again, but with the Spring accessible, she's not that much of a threat. I'm not sure how much spoilers are allowed, so I'm posting all the somewhat "sensitive" text in spoilers. So anyway there's definitely more to the plot (none of the above seems to tie in with Bladestar, Indriad, Amanda, Nymeria...) , but that's what the next version is for. Expand "especially when you remember that she's butchered many Team Xen members upon hearing of Melia's death."- It's mentioned she did that out of rage, so it's not contradictory to her statment, just a really bad move from her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterans Falirion Posted October 25, 2019 Veterans Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) On 10/24/2019 at 10:40 PM, Mindlack said: Reveal hidden contents About the Venam rescue part, I suppose I can hazard a few guesses. Nastasia doesn't want anyone to find out that she brought Venam because 1) Madame X's direct subordinates will see it as directly helping the enemy. Indeed, Madame X has personally witnessed that Venam somehow enabled Melia's power to awaken. 2) None of the "good guys" will trust her 3) She doesn't even know if this is going to work About why she cares about Venam -- either she remembers her as the girl who advocated for giving her breaks (in the first trip to Kugearen City), which seems far-fetched, or maybe the new Venam (looks like she's had at last her epiphany) saved her in her past and she feels like she owes her something. I feel the second hypothesis is much more likely, and a typical response from a "universe in a tight spot" that generates circular causality to save itself. It seems significantly shadier that Nastasia lets Ren return "loot" from Nancy to the MC, even sentimental, let alone the "Black Box". There are a couple of points I wanted to mention as well, but these feature (spoilers from WLL, V12 and) the results of the game files exploration by someone I can't remember, so I'll put them in further spoilers. Reveal hidden contents There's something very, very strange with Madame X's goals and means. She has a Time Diamond, and, thanks to Freya (I think she's the red-haired Naganadel/Beeheyem wielder?), has access to very effective mind control. There's about the entire realm of fan-fiction (and much of sci-fi as well) to explore just how broken each of these abilities is. Two at once? She should be able to accomplish anything without a sweat. So maybe there's more some kind of circumstance alliance between Freya and Team Xen. She's admitted she wants Melia's power for... something? But is it really to recreate Storm-9 (the nature of which hasn't been precised so far, but we may probably assume it's the damped version by Vivian's sacrifice of "Indriad's gift")? Can we actually trust the Stormchasers on that point? And Freya seemed intent on reopening the Amethyst Grotto in WLL -- is it the same plot for the same goal? There's also a very out-of-character scene, when Madame X confronts Madelis on her failures. She says in one sentence that "alone we are nothing, together we make an unstoppable force" and calls Madelis a "worm" in the very next, which seems like some sort of contradiction -- especially when you remember that she's butchered many Team Xen members upon hearing of Melia's death. So, and here I'm joining my main point back, what help is Team Xen to Madame X? This question can probably be asked for every over-powered villain in any work, but I think it's quite blatant here. Finally, someone did some digging and found that Risa Raider's Jigglypuff had the same stats and ability as a Naganadel... Risa Raider actually existed, but went seriously ill when she was 12, got "miraculously" cured by the shady and Xen-affiliated Dr. Isha, got seen with Team Xen (ostensibly to fight them, while attending a stupidly demanding university and being a full-time actress). Am I the only one thinking this is too much? That a more reasonable explanation is that Isha, out of love for his reputation and success rate, let Freya "imperson" the actually-deceased Risa Raider? That (at least on stage, it's a different matter on screen altogether) a powerful and trained mind-controller/delusion-maker makes a great actor/actress? That you don't even need mind-control to make ambiguous the side you work for in a conflict situation? Reveal hidden contents That Texen will spectacularly redeem himself by spotting the fake at a critical time? About Crescent... Upon re-reading most of her dialog she really is tough to figure out (let alone the Puppet Master). But there are assumptions we can reasonably make. She probably helps fake Melia's death "in good faith" for the Stormchasers (I'm assuming each time we see Crescent, she's already lived through the previous encounters in her timeline). She leaves shortly after. What happens shortly after? Ren starts acting as her mole. What, if Ren's information actually provided irrefutable proof to Crescent that, the situation was more complex than the Stormchasers had led her to believe? That, while Team Xen is evil, they're actually preventing some power vacuum that would let something bigger and badder take over, or the Xens are secretly manipulating the Stormchasers, or something else? Another interesting part is her ordering Nim (and, I suppose, Nancy) around. If Damian is to be trusted (he's probably not), Nim is some sort of cosmic-scale eldritch abomination... who obeys Crescent without arguing. And what are Crescent's instructions? Go to GDC, turn Gym Leaders to stone, and don't hurt Guzma, but she may target Melia/Venam. What are the consequences? The city is dismayed, restless, so Cassandra's (so Team Xen's) clout is reduced; more long-term, Nim/Lorna might go and break against Melia's light (since it supposedly healed the entire Earth and she's able to use it now). There are at least two issues with the last idea, though: first, the long-term plan really sounds like an insane gamble. Second, if her plan was to dismay the city, it backfired very spectacularly after Cassandra lived through the explosion (or more likely used another robotic body) and destroyed Bladestar. I suppose she can send Nim to frighten the city again, but with the Spring accessible, she's not that much of a threat. I'm not sure how much spoilers are allowed, so I'm posting all the somewhat "sensitive" text in spoilers. So anyway there's definitely more to the plot (none of the above seems to tie in with Bladestar, Indriad, Amanda, Nymeria...) , but that's what the next version is for. Expand Oh man you have no idea what you have done with that post, you made me RAMBLE, so yeah i gonna put this stuff in seperate spoiler tags, not because spoilers, but because it's gonna be long (it's still gonna be spoilers for the entire up to V12 and possibly WLL, but a discussion like this is always gonna have those) Crescent : Reveal hidden contents the thing about her leaving shortly after Melia's recruitment is that she was around long enough that Melia got an attachment to her and got a pokemon from her, Melia's gardevoir has Crescent as it's OT. doesn't really stop your idea from working because we are dealing with Time travel shenanigans, just to point that out. i personally thought that Crescent's part in Melia's recruitment was a good bit before all her other appearances for her personal Timeline, but nothing really hinges on that, so that's just me. (Works that include Time Travel are always a mess to figure out). To be clear about what i meant about my distrust for Crescent, people have theorized that Crescent might have a personal connection to the Player, that she might personally care... don't think so, but possible, but it can't be the whole reason for her protection, simply because if that were the case, she would have kept them as far away from Aevium as possible as she should really know what is all going on there and that it's likely dangerous, but she specifically ordered Nancy to bring them there (speaking of Nancy i guess she is technically one of those Garufan servant things, like Indriad's maids and Kanon) she knows Melia's situation but she specifically wants the player to not help her, that one is understanable, especially if she knows she gets recruited by Spacea and Tiempa, due to her own involvment that may have already happend for her. Her "help" on Valor Mountain consisted of Teleporting away a bunch of allies, and pretending to bring the Player back from the dead, which i honestly rather doubt she can actually do. the most generous reading of the scene makes her showing the player that THEY can will themselves back from the dead, and then still prentending to that it was her doing to dangle it over their head, and then she actually did stuff by stopping Geara and Zetta (which she probably could have done before the "revives" were necessary, if she had felt like it). and then does the same thing with Nim, i am inclined to trust Damian about Nim having this sort of Power, some of Alexandras reactions support this, but he ultimately probably misjudges her human nature (meaning Nim probably can come back on her own or not die from being dumped lava, but Damian is wrong in only seeing her as a Monster of some sort) Let's not get started on how she tricked ren into helping her. Heck i wouldn't be surprised if Crescent is one of the Four shadows (Betrayal at a guess, yes i think Nastasia and MadameX are wrong about Ren being it), but there are other options, and i am not as sure about her than my other placements for the shadows. Her personal statues right now? well i am pretty sure timesurfer chick (likely Freya, i call these two timesurfers, mainly due to Keiran's hoverboard) is lieing about killing her, their confrontation was before the gang got to GDC and during the Nightmare City segment Crescent it in Nightmare City (near the Toybox) while she technically could be someones nightmare, her behaviour when talked to seem more in line with the other dreamers. (well either that or wierd timetravel shenanigans, but i don't think Crescent gets to travel as freely as MadameX with the Timediamond or the Timesurfers get to) TL:DR: Crescent is still alive, and a schemer I distrust heavily, due to her manipulating People left right and Center Madame X: Reveal hidden contents Now i will admit when the Game first brought up the fact that she can freely Timetravel i called BS on that, i still do on some respects (on a lot actually), but there might be a reason why she didn't for example travel to before Melia was recruited into the Storm Chasers and just snatched her up. now this is all spitballing but here goes: Timetraveling MadameX =! Presenttime MademeX: I figure if she could freely Timetravel at the time of say Blacksteeple, she would have known that Melia was still alive, She could have checked personally what happend, she could also have noticed an older Melia in the Past in Kugearen (more likely than one would think as she seems to keep tabs on Maria and/or Indriad) and before someone says that she only got the Timediamond from the doomed Timeline in the first place, no she mentionts personally that she had one before that and it broke when she was shifted to the doomed Timeline, which is also the reason why she was there as the diamond protected her like a Time gear would. there are also her interactions with the Player to consider, she wants to kill them at Blacksteeple, in Kugearen she saves them, in the doomed Timeline she begruginly works with them and melia, and figures out that the player is the Interceptor (and apparently knows what that means), and on the pyramid she doesn't even aknowledge the presence of said Interceptor. (or Melia for that matter), just saying to "give them the edge and push them off" after everything is done, while the Timesurfers might know to just bring Melia without her needing to say so, she must know that just killing the Interceptor won't do anything... or does she. see where i am going? it's possible that madame X on the Pyramid hasn't lived through the doomed timeline yet, and as such doesn't know the Player to be the Interceptor. so she probably aquires the Diamond later on. why do the surfers not help her timetravel, as they cleary can at this point... well beats me. my best explanaition is that this MadameX is not protected from Timecorrection and as such it would be to dangerous to do. why does Future MadameX not use the Diamond to go grab Melia? possibly changes in history, if she goes back and grabs Melia she might change time in such a way that she won't get the diamond... And yeah I do think that there is more to MadameX than Pure Evil, and seeing as well still don't know her goals just that she needs melia for it... she might be a "the end justify the means" type of character For the shadow prophecy i currently think of her as the Shadow of Obsession, she wants power but not out of greed but because she has a goal, and she will do anything to get there, one might say she is obsessed with it she is not PURE evil (note the capital letters) as she has shown sympathie at least once (maria right at the start) As for the the mentioned scenes it could be that pre Time Diamond madameX is even more ruthless than Post diamond, (i am really bad in judging emontions and such) TL:DR there might be 2 seperate MademeX's we are looking at and present time MadameX can't Timetravel Redhead Timesurfer (Freya): Reveal hidden contents Now this one IS PURE freaking EVIL, with all the capital letters, not convinced? just look at her final scene with Kenneth in WLL, anyone who taunts a father over getting their daughter killed (she not him), and there not even a soul being left from here, deserves a special place in any negative afterlive there might be. I can absolutely see her using Risa Raider as some sort of cover identity, especially with her demonic jigglypuff, having the moveset and base stats of that Naganadel, and that Isha would cover for that? sold, this guy wouldn't even blink about the morality of it. a candidate for the shadow of Pure evil, but not quite the only one TL:DR: she is a [insert favorite insult], and i like your theory Nastasia & Venam: Reveal hidden contents I doubt that Venam is more than a blip on Xen's rader tbh, there were 2 instances were she interacted with Xen and in both her role was relatively minior, she only clashed with Zetta in amethyst after the catastrophe already happend, and on Valor mountain... she kept 2 grunt busy, and was then swatted aside by Giratina, the main reason Xen even cares about here is probably her being friends with Melia. (ftr i might be biased as Venam really isn't one of my favorite characters). As for Nastasia, i like the point about her possibly recognizing Venam from her childhood, in some way (we pretty much know she did for Ren, which is probably the main reason why she brought him to MadameX to join Xen), inbefore someone saying that it isn't confirmed that Anastasia = Nastasia. There is also the fact that Nastasia just seem to like to keep any- and everything about herself secret, so she might just have wanted to hide that she cares about something, as for logical reasons, your list probably about covers it TL:DR: No, just read it, or don't it isn't that important or long and finally just for Fun because i included one guess for each of the shadows except greed; Flora, a greed for power, in fact thats the one I am most sure of okay that was way to much typing and some people might now think i am insane (probs am), also is discussion lore so widely, in topic for a V13 thread still on topic.... to late to think about that Edited October 25, 2019 by Falirion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kithas Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 I still like to think sometimes that Nastasia's lack of distress of what would Madame X do with her (the other team Xen Admins we've met were fearful from the consequences of disobeying, while even Madelis asked Nastasia once about her lack of stress) has something to do with the fact that team Xen's HQ is located in the exact place her mom's company was. She either has actual personal ties with Madame X or at least knows her very well (I'm not going so far as to speculate Madame X to be her own mother but you know) and that's the reason she knows her boss will let her on a secret mission that goes straight next Team Xen's HQ for rescuing the good guys and even one of Ren and Melia's friends. And yes, Risa Raider being actually Freya is too obvious at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kikss Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 madame X? That´s actually a pretty good theory, have to think a little about this. I just recently finished V12 with my second playfile and noticed that the whole "blowing up the grand dream ball" may be much more important than we think, (well okay it definitly is very important right now, but maybe even much more) since first of all the puppetmaster tells Melia and Erin that the real truth (whatever that is) will be told at the Grand dream ball and then also Kieran teleports us back into the past right before Ryland can tell us about a very important Bladestar action (which is pretty sure the blow up of the gdb). So it seems really important that this event took place. Maybe bec Erin acitvates her power there and that will be very important in future events? What do you guys think about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcaneArceus Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Ooooh, two Madame X's! I like that theory. The GDB does seem more important than meets the eye to everyone, Bladestar, Team Xen, and the Interceptor's merry band of heroes. We know that the GDB led to Melia, Erin, Alice, and Allen all gathering at the Shrine of Rejuvenation. We also know that they can somehow form the Archetype which somehow relates to Nymeria/Indriad and holds immense power. I feel like the ball was "fated" to reveal some sort of power that they share and begin to fit the pieces of Melia, the Archetype, Team Xen, Erin, the Garufa, and Anathea together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demone Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 This talk about Risa being an impostor reminded me about Cosmia and Comet the people who were impersonating the main character and their mother, its only been what, 4 episodes since they were on screen, think there was mention of Cosmia impersonating arena fighters though, really hoping they make an appearance so there's more info to theorycraft with besides, comet cant shapeshift and that Cosmia knows the identity of madame x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcaneArceus Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Oh yeah, Cosmia and Comet. I forgot about them. I do hope that they make a return; those two are mysterious, but they only appeared for one scene. What do you guys think about Spacea, Tiempa, and Griselda? Griselda does seem to be the Giratina that we found under Wispy Tower, but do you guys think that there's some relation between Spacea and Palika or Tiempa and Dialga? Because if so, that could lead to some theories about other characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhehvnukl Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 On 10/27/2019 at 3:19 AM, ArcaneArceus said: Oh yeah, Cosmia and Comet. I forgot about them. I do hope that they make a return; those two are mysterious, but they only appeared for one scene. What do you guys think about Spacea, Tiempa, and Griselda? Griselda does seem to be the Giratina that we found under Wispy Tower, but do you guys think that there's some relation between Spacea and Palika or Tiempa and Dialga? Because if so, that could lead to some theories about other characters. Expand I mean, Spacea and Tiempa are Griselda's sisters. We see that in the odd house cutscene that we get after opening all doors. They are practicaly confirmed to be Palkia and Dialga. Speaking of them, I remember that one of the kimono girls said something about Uxie, Mesprit and Azelf turning themselfs to stone so that the red chain couldnt be created or something like that (No, the statues we see of them arent actually them, they're just shrines). I wonder why that is? On 10/26/2019 at 7:29 PM, Demone said: This talk about Risa being an impostor reminded me about Cosmia and Comet the people who were impersonating the main character and their mother, its only been what, 4 episodes since they were on screen, think there was mention of Cosmia impersonating arena fighters though, really hoping they make an appearance so there's more info to theorycraft with besides, comet cant shapeshift and that Cosmia knows the identity of madame x. Expand Considering the fact that they lured people into Lorna, we can safely say that they're working with Crescent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kithas Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 I mean, if Spacea & Tiempa are actually Palkia and Dialga (which is all but confirmed), the protectors of Aevium were strongly associated with each Regi and Griselda was transformed into Giratina, what more characters are actually pokemon in human form? Is Crescent a Cresselia? Will we find the one giving orders to Spacea and Tiempa wearing white and gold? Will it be an adult Melia since she's been associated with either Arceus or Xerneas? (although I'll say it would be fun to see an actual Arceus talking to the sisters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus543 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 I think the photo is related to that pillar in the desert, i recall Nymiera mentioning we will meet again when it rises. I get a feeling that 13 is going to be a big one. As for the Puppetmaster, i'll place my bet and say he's on our side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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