Yoraiko Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 How do you do, fellow kids? In the latest part of my walkthrough, I mainly talked about the character Amaria and her arc and role in Pokemon Reborn. Since I have and had a personal connection to the topics covered here, I found her arc to be my favorite one in the game, or rather the most thought-provoking one. There were some thoughts I had to write down regarding the hate(?) for her in the fandom, but since I don't think too many will read them in the context of my walkthrough, I'd like to share them here, even though I'm extremely biased in these kind of topics and opening up a topic for such a sensible matter could easily lead to a fine shitstorm. I'm still eager to try, lets discuss! So here's what I wrote and think about Amaria, Titania and the topics presented in E18: (Spoilers, obviously) Reveal hidden contents Amaria isn't evil - The art of understanding Depression and suicidal thoughts are a dark, dark place. Nobody, and really nobody who is seriously affected by this is a remarkably pleasant person. The fact that those affected not only suffer from their inner emptiness and senselessness, but also repel everything and everyone with fatal finality, is almost a part of the clinical picture, because it is usually extremely difficult for outsiders to cope with this behavior or to put themselves into the person's shoes. I know that myself, because I also had and have to deal with close friends who are in this very dark place. But it is perhaps more important to mention, and here I am getting a little personal, very unusual, that I was also in this dark place and almost wouldn't have left it. Maybe I never really did. But hey, I'm alive and well, which is the reason you had to endure this walkthrough for months now. What I want to say is that I think I can claim to be able to understand characters like Amaria. Her attachment and complete projection towards Titania almost resembles my behavior towards a friend at that time. My views on it are so biased that I don't really want to say too much about it, but I have to. As I understood before and especially through my research after this arc, Amaria is hated as a toxic, terrible and selfish character that pulls Titania down with her. I totally get this thinking. I can really understand this opinion which, to an extend, corresponds to the facts, whether we are talking about Amaria or a real person. But it's just part of the truth and what worries me is that I'm not entirely sure if Amethyst as the author was aware of that. But I strongly believe she was. This exuberant hate and the labeling of Amaria as toxic once again shows for me personally how much incomprehension, ignorance and lack of education still exists for sufferings such as severe depression, suicidal thoughts, loneliness and dependency. For someone like me, it is a self-righteous, unreflective and limited swarm attitude, one which you can see on platforms such as Reddit or online forums, when, for example, Forever Alones meet 'Normies' and the latter start giving advice. I shudder at the thought. But we’re moving too far from the subject. Simply dismissing Amaria as a toxic psycho-bitch says more about you than about her. Because, luckily! - apparently it is not possible for you to imagine yourself in someone’s shoes who has only felt emptiness and sadness all his life, has no human closeness and simply has no desire to live. I wish you that it stays that way - nobody should be there. But don't judge those who are. Naturally, Amaria is almost psychotically dependent and clinging to Titania. Naturally, Titania suffers from it unspeakably and I think it's good that she was able to escape it in the course of the game. This is a terrible situation for both characters, as well as for real people in this context. But can you seriously condemn Amaria for not wanting to lose the only person she has, the sole reason for her existence? I mean, really? I'm not saying that it makes her more likeable or that Titania has to suffer for Amaria's sake. I'm just saying I fully understand how this character feels. It is perfectly normal that Amaria or chronic depressed people are PERMANENTly insecure and afraid that the few people in their lives will let them down, Amethyst has captured this very well. It is also normal, I say that from experience, that they constantly "test" them to confirm their loyalty. These are reasons why depressed people sooner or later push everything and everyone away from them, and they can - not - stop it. If this seems all toxic and self-centered to you, please try to seriously introduce yourself to a thought for a minute. You grow up and aren’t able to happy about anything. Not about sweets, not about games, not about nice weather. You just lack the ability to be happy, which seems to be so very normal to everyone else around you. You never had any friends and of course no romantic partner until the age of 30 and afterwards, have not kissed anyone yet, feel completely decoupled from the world and society. And then there is this one person who gets through to you and who means something to you and who is there for you and who endures your awfulness and does not give up on you. Of course you make them your whole world like a drowning person clinging to a piece of wood. Is it healthy for Titania or Amaria? Is it fair? No, but that's how it fucking works. Yes, locking myself up to drown under water is highly toxic, psychopathic and unforgivable. But from my EXTREMELY biased perspective, I say that I understood her conflict and still don't judge Amaria for it. She is desperately looking for someone to blame for the fact that the only person she cares about is about to break away, and in her suicidal depression she doesn't think it could be herself. Yes, Amaria is psychotic and you can deeply condemn her behavior. Her suffering does not justify her actions. But in my opinion and experience with depression, she never acts with a clear mind in this matter, she is broken lonely, desperately addicted to love and paranoid to lose literally the only thing in the world that prevents her from jumping out of a window. Jeez, I don't judge the girl any more than any real person who acts on it. I just feel so sorry for her. Honest, sincere pity. And that's exactly how I feel for Titania too, who, on behalf of many real people, has the role of the 'anchor' and ultimately escapes this unhealthy relationship. Do I give her that? Hell yes. If another person overloads and destroys you with needs and expectations, leave her behind. Does it still hurt my soul for Amaria? Fuck yes. I impulsively hate and condemn the fictional character Titania for letting Amaria down, playing in the arms of her biggest and only fear and probably effectively sentencing her to death, but I also know that this is just my irrational brain. No one is to blame in such a relationship. Nobody wins. Everyone loses. There really is no good and evil here, and certainly no one to judge. After all this is said, I would like to emphasize again how much I always appreciate it when a medium addresses this difficult and still very hesitantly treated topic in pop culture, as Amethyst did here. Amaria's and Titania's dialogues are written so well and understandably that I am absolutely certain that Amethyst has had her own experience in the matter and or has done extremely good research. This was all taken from reality on point. High praise, and even if it hurt it was my favorite arc in the game. And let’s also note the fact that Amaria reflected on her behavior before her gym fight. She is aware of all she does. There is just nothing she can do about it. What would there be? I hope she didn't kill herself and we'll see her again in E19. I would really hope so. Otherwise I already know who, at the end of Pokemon Reborn, is no longer my very favorite character. And that too says a lot about me, I know. Again, I know how subjective my standpoint is, but so is every other who condemns her. I don't know if its approtiate to go into complex topics like depression, suicide and toxic relationships in the forum of a pokemon fangame too deep, but hey, sincere there already have been several discussions regarding her character here and the game inspires it, why not debate about it? I'm interested what you think about my thoughts. Thanks for your time! 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 Saying that she's evil is going a bit far. People forget the actual definition of evil sometimes and she isn't truly wicked to the core. I can empathize with her depression although I can't say I've ever felt anything as severe as what she's feeling. But... her actions are pretty inexcusable. It's understandable that people get depressed. It happens. It's not understandable to treat people badly. Something that people have been extremely slow to catch onto even in this day and age is that depression is not an excuse to be a complete asshole. It never was, and never will be. So again, it's understandable, I can both sympathize and empathize(to a degree) but it is not okay. And that's the bottom line most everyone is trying to get at I feel. I feel after everything you've written and after all the discussions we've had on these forums that I don't need to break her actions down to show just how bad she is. Keep in mind this is from a more realistic stand point, but once these thoughts and feelings come to me, I can't help but lose it when it comes to Amaria. I've seen other people express views about empathizing with Titania's role in the relationship way more(views which I heavily share as well), and to many of us when you realize what Amaria is, it's a bit triggering. But if you zoom back in on the story, she does fulfill her role pretty well. She fits that depressed arch type like a glove and depending on the path you choose you even get to see her eventual downward spiral. She's well written. I'll give her that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 On 4/22/2020 at 10:32 PM, Yoraiko said: How do you do, fellow kids? In the latest part of my walkthrough, I mainly talked about the character Amaria and her arc and role in Pokemon Reborn. Since I have and had a personal connection to the topics covered here, I found her arc to be my favorite one in the game, or rather the most thought-provoking one. There were some thoughts I had to write down regarding the hate(?) for her in the fandom, but since I don't think too many will read them in the context of my walkthrough, I'd like to share them here, even though I'm extremely biased in these kind of topics and opening up a topic for such a sensible matter could easily lead to a fine shitstorm. I'm still eager to try, lets discuss! So here's what I wrote and think about Amaria, Titania and the topics presented in E18: (Spoilers, obviously) Reveal hidden contents Amaria isn't evil - The art of understanding Depression and suicidal thoughts are a dark, dark place. Nobody, and really nobody who is seriously affected by this is a remarkably pleasant person. The fact that those affected not only suffer from their inner emptiness and senselessness, but also repel everything and everyone with fatal finality, is almost a part of the clinical picture, because it is usually extremely difficult for outsiders to cope with this behavior or to put themselves into the person's shoes. I know that myself, because I also had and have to deal with close friends who are in this very dark place. But it is perhaps more important to mention, and here I am getting a little personal, very unusual, that I was also in this dark place and almost wouldn't have left it. Maybe I never really did. But hey, I'm alive and well, which is the reason you had to endure this walkthrough for months now. What I want to say is that I think I can claim to be able to understand characters like Amaria. Her attachment and complete projection towards Titania almost resembles my behavior towards a friend at that time. My views on it are so biased that I don't really want to say too much about it, but I have to. As I understood before and especially through my research after this arc, Amaria is hated as a toxic, terrible and selfish character that pulls Titania down with her. I totally get this thinking. I can really understand this opinion which, to an extend, corresponds to the facts, whether we are talking about Amaria or a real person. But it's just part of the truth and what worries me is that I'm not entirely sure if Amethyst as the author was aware of that. But I strongly believe she was. This exuberant hate and the labeling of Amaria as toxic once again shows for me personally how much incomprehension, ignorance and lack of education still exists for sufferings such as severe depression, suicidal thoughts, loneliness and dependency. For someone like me, it is a self-righteous, unreflective and limited swarm attitude, one which you can see on platforms such as Reddit or online forums, when, for example, Forever Alones meet 'Normies' and the latter start giving advice. I shudder at the thought. But we’re moving too far from the subject. Simply dismissing Amaria as a toxic psycho-bitch says more about you than about her. Because, luckily! - apparently it is not possible for you to imagine yourself in someone’s shoes who has only felt emptiness and sadness all his life, has no human closeness and simply has no desire to live. I wish you that it stays that way - nobody should be there. But don't judge those who are. Naturally, Amaria is almost psychotically dependent and clinging to Titania. Naturally, Titania suffers from it unspeakably and I think it's good that she was able to escape it in the course of the game. This is a terrible situation for both characters, as well as for real people in this context. But can you seriously condemn Amaria for not wanting to lose the only person she has, the sole reason for her existence? I mean, really? I'm not saying that it makes her more likeable or that Titania has to suffer for Amaria's sake. I'm just saying I fully understand how this character feels. It is perfectly normal that Amaria or chronic depressed people are PERMANENTly insecure and afraid that the few people in their lives will let them down, Amethyst has captured this very well. It is also normal, I say that from experience, that they constantly "test" them to confirm their loyalty. These are reasons why depressed people sooner or later push everything and everyone away from them, and they can - not - stop it. If this seems all toxic and self-centered to you, please try to seriously introduce yourself to a thought for a minute. You grow up and aren’t able to happy about anything. Not about sweets, not about games, not about nice weather. You just lack the ability to be happy, which seems to be so very normal to everyone else around you. You never had any friends and of course no romantic partner until the age of 30 and afterwards, have not kissed anyone yet, feel completely decoupled from the world and society. And then there is this one person who gets through to you and who means something to you and who is there for you and who endures your awfulness and does not give up on you. Of course you make them your whole world like a drowning person clinging to a piece of wood. Is it healthy for Titania or Amaria? Is it fair? No, but that's how it fucking works. Yes, locking myself up to drown under water is highly toxic, psychopathic and unforgivable. But from my EXTREMELY biased perspective, I say that I understood her conflict and still don't judge Amaria for it. She is desperately looking for someone to blame for the fact that the only person she cares about is about to break away, and in her suicidal depression she doesn't think it could be herself. Yes, Amaria is psychotic and you can deeply condemn her behavior. Her suffering does not justify her actions. But in my opinion and experience with depression, she never acts with a clear mind in this matter, she is broken lonely, desperately addicted to love and paranoid to lose literally the only thing in the world that prevents her from jumping out of a window. Jeez, I don't judge the girl any more than any real person who acts on it. I just feel so sorry for her. Honest, sincere pity. And that's exactly how I feel for Titania too, who, on behalf of many real people, has the role of the 'anchor' and ultimately escapes this unhealthy relationship. Do I give her that? Hell yes. If another person overloads and destroys you with needs and expectations, leave her behind. Does it still hurt my soul for Amaria? Fuck yes. I impulsively hate and condemn the fictional character Titania for letting Amaria down, playing in the arms of her biggest and only fear and probably effectively sentencing her to death, but I also know that this is just my irrational brain. No one is to blame in such a relationship. Nobody wins. Everyone loses. There really is no good and evil here, and certainly no one to judge. After all this is said, I would like to emphasize again how much I always appreciate it when a medium addresses this difficult and still very hesitantly treated topic in pop culture, as Amethyst did here. Amaria's and Titania's dialogues are written so well and understandably that I am absolutely certain that Amethyst has had her own experience in the matter and or has done extremely good research. This was all taken from reality on point. High praise, and even if it hurt it was my favorite arc in the game. And let’s also note the fact that Amaria reflected on her behavior before her gym fight. She is aware of all she does. There is just nothing she can do about it. What would there be? I hope she didn't kill herself and we'll see her again in E19. I would really hope so. Otherwise I already know who, at the end of Pokemon Reborn, is no longer my very favorite character. And that too says a lot about me, I know. Again, I know how subjective my standpoint is, but so is every other who condemns her. I don't know if its approtiate to go into complex topics like depression, suicide and toxic relationships in the forum of a pokemon fangame too deep, but hey, sincere there already have been several discussions regarding her character here and the game inspires it, why not debate about it? I'm interested what you think about my thoughts. Thanks for your time! Expand Hi there, I will not write much, certainly not as much as you did, but I just wanted to express that your analysis touched me a lot, sincerely, and that I agree with almost all of your points. In fact, you are not the only one to feel this way, and to have experienced what could have happened to you in the past. Actually, I did suffer a lot too. I just wanted to tell you that, whatever happened to you, I hope this is far behind you, and you manage to taste life as ever. You know, before leaving this world, someone very important to me said these words: "You are the proof that it is possible to live despite the pain." You have no idea how these words have helped me, how much this person has allowed me to get myself out of the darkness, and simply to live for the first time. And as for Amaria, she actually is my favourite character too, for the same reasons as yours. Thanks a lot for your efforts and your time. I wish you, with all my heart, the best for you in the future. Affectionately ~ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magus Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 She ain't evil, but she isn't in the right either, the best word to use would broken. But still being manipulative toward Titania and trying to drown you is in no way OK. I also love how this ties in with the whole truth vs ideal theme, personally I chose the truth route even knowing the outcome. Overall though both characters are well written, both of them are some of my favorite characters in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity04 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 I agree Amaria is not evil, she is a deeply troubled person. But as a previous post said, it is not ok to manipulate and harm others. It is not an excuse to do whatever you want to other people, holding them in a hostage-like situation or trying to harm them physically just because things do not go your way. It is very difficult to distinguish which things are due to character and which to mental illness at this point. I dislike her for many reasons. That being said, I dislike Titania as well. Encouraging those toxic behaviors and then say you live your whole life in a lie is something to blame to yourself only. The only logical thing to do is seek professional help for the person that suffers. Not staying with them, faking a whole relationship for years. It doesn't even make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nguyengiangoc Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) I still remember the feeling of that moment. Reveal hidden contents I got the Reshiram route. In the second conversation with her under the water in the gym, when she said "and when I was dying, the first time, the second time, the eighteenth time, I know", I was like "Omg she knows. OMG SHE KNOWS!! OMG OMG OMG...... She's been faking all along. That's just... horrible.." I was flabbergasted. Edited April 23, 2020 by nguyengiangoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
𝒞💮𝓁𝑒𝓉𝓉𝑒 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 On 4/23/2020 at 12:57 PM, Serenity04 said: The only logical thing to do is seek professional help for the person that suffers. Expand Uh, did you forget what professional help looks like in this world? Not saying Titania made the right choice to date Amaria, but there weren't any good options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nguyengiangoc Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 10:49 AM, 𝒞💮𝓁𝑒𝓉𝓉𝑒 said: Uh, did you forget what professional help looks like in this world? Expand What are they like? No sarcasm intended. I just wanna know cuz I havent had any experience with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity04 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 10:49 AM, 𝒞💮𝓁𝑒𝓉𝓉𝑒 said: Uh, did you forget what professional help looks like in this world? Not saying Titania made the right choice to date Amaria, but there weren't any good options. Expand Of course I didn't, but I judge the characters in real life measures, to justify their behavior or not. Titania is an assertive person, borderline being rude to the player, so if she wanted, she could find a proper psychiatrist, but I suspect her not seeking help for Amaria has nothing to do with Connal being the scum of a doctor he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenEric Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Amaria is definitely someone i would pity but not help that being said psychiatric help in reborn is basically nonexistent since the only psychologist is broken too man adrienn really needs to address this issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity04 Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 3:18 PM, GenEric said: Amaria is definitely someone i would pity but not help that being said psychiatric help in reborn is basically nonexistent since the only psychologist is broken too man adrienn really needs to address this issue Expand Isn't it weird that Ame didn't know about the things that were happening in the psychiatric clinic? I always thought that she must have known, one way or another, and do something about Sigmund, given that this must have been going on for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 8:04 PM, Serenity04 said: Isn't it weird that Ame didn't know about the things that were happening in the psychiatric clinic? I always thought that she must have known, one way or another, and do something about Sigmund, given that this must have been going on for years. Expand She probably let a lot of it slide. That or she just didn't have enough time to really notice. You have to remember that Ame's priority is the Reborn league and keeping it up and running. An extension of the league of course is the city itself and keeping it functional(which is a rather difficult task). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity04 Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 On 5/14/2020 at 3:09 AM, Vinnie said: She probably let a lot of it slide. That or she just didn't have enough time to really notice. You have to remember that Ame's priority is the Reborn league and keeping it up and running. An extension of the league of course is the city itself and keeping it functional(which is a rather difficult task). Expand I guess, this is not a job for one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 On 5/15/2020 at 9:32 PM, Serenity04 said: I guess, this is not a job for one person. Expand It happens. Its fairly common in organizations of any kind for people up at the top to sometimes have no idea what's going on below. They're very much up at the top and a bit removed from a lot of things below them. They have to rely on those below them to do their parts and to fulfill them with integrity and honesty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenity04 Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 On 5/17/2020 at 12:28 AM, Vinnie said: It happens. Its fairly common in organizations of any kind for people up at the top to sometimes have no idea what's going on below. They're very much up at the top and a bit removed from a lot of things below them. They have to rely on those below them to do their parts and to fulfill them with integrity and honesty. Expand I hope it will be addressed, otherwise Amaria will not have a good ending. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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