V13 - Balancing feedback & issues

[Zumi]

This isn't to report bugs in, but we've decided to create a form that collects feedback on the various fights throughout the game for all difficulty modes!

 

If you're having trouble with a fight or feel like a fight is too underwhelming for what it should be, please use the form to submit your feedback to it, and we may take it in consideration for future balancing changes to make playing Rejuvenation an overall more pleasant and fair experience for all players.

 

TO SUBMIT FEEDBACK, GO TO THIS FORM!

 

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT SEND NON-SERIOUS SUBMISSIONS IN THIS FORM OR SUBMISSIONS THAT JUST CONSIST OF FRUSTRATED RANTS ABOUT CERTAIN FIGHTS WITHOUT EXPLAINING WHAT'S MAKING THE FIGHT DIFFICULT. We have no use for those and will be removed.

[itsthecol]

I struggled alot with Angie, primarily had trouble with her Beartic. 

[pizzagod13]

I was asked to post this here so here it is!

 

This is on normal difficulty. I play on set with no items.

 

The fight against Saki does not feel at all winnable. All the other fights in the game felt hard, but I could always see a way to win, but not this time.

 

Essentially her Pokémon take literally no damage but can dish out enough damage to one shot my entire team, I can barely even get past her first mon.

 

The ultra death laser (or whatever it is called) is especially unfun, since it one shots and if I do survive I lose my stats. Even using light screen does nothing to help my situation and I get one-shot anyway. Attempting to use a special defense beast like Blissey and minimize cheese does nothing since Blissey dies in one hit anyway. Which from what I have been told is due to wonder room being in effect, which Jan on the hologram advice box thing, said nothing about (unless I missed it, which I guess is possible, I did not even know wonder room was a thing).

 

Essentially, the fight seems very unfun and using cheese seems like my only way to win, since I have no way of damaging her otherwise.

 

EDIT: Ok finally managed to win. And yeah it was no fun really. I was forced to bring something with wonder room to get rid of it, which hard locks you into a very small number of Pokemon, then I stalled out for like 50+ turns with a Sheninja (seeded) so I could knock out three of her mons for free. The lengths I had to go to win made it unfun, since the only way I saw to win was to cheese the hell out of the fight with a unkillable Pokemon. Like I might as well have just opened up console and turned on "Godmode".

Edited July 22, 2021 by pizzagod13

[Magus543]

I was going to put this as part of my V13 review but here goes.

 

 

When it comes to the Saki Fight, I personally think the biggest problem is the seeds. They remove the typing of both her Aggron and Bronzong and there's no indication they do this at all.  This is a bad decision in terms of crafting a Pokemon challenge

 

Yes, Pokemon Rejuvenation is by design meant to be stacked against you, with all the field effects and seeds that the opponent can use while you cant. Such as the Melia fight in this update where she has a magical seed for two of her Pokemon that is juiced up King's shield. This is a large amount of the appeal for most players of this game. And yes conquering the challenge and winning against an opponent with a huge advantage is a big reason why I enjoy this game. However the type less seed ability is a fundamental insult to Pokemon design. This is going from stacked deck but still fair against you to outright breaking the rules. 

 

 

Sure the fields are meant to give the leaders an advantage, and we sort of expect that when going to a gym. But a Gym battle is meant to test your understanding of the Pokemon's type, by turning TWO pokemon into not-steel types, it goes against what Pokemon is. Saki is meant to be the Steel type leader, and to make her even more of a challenge, two of her Pokemon are NOT Steel types. That's not Pokemon, the entire principle of Pokemon's battle system is built on type advantages and disadvantages, and something like two typeless fights just fundamentally isn't part of the rules set up by the game, this is the point where the game actively breaks it's own rules to give a challenge that isn't even fun. Hell any disadvantage for a typeless Pokemon is null and void since Bronzong and Aggron's death ray is still buffed by the field. 

 

 

Did I enjoy the fight? Yes(when I wasn't fighting those two), but typeless Pokemon are a fundamentally bad idea and goes against the spirit of the series and this game. Rejuvenation has always been about giving a challenge with unique rules such as the fields and special enemy only moves, but to turn a Steel Type Leader's Pokemon into a typeless fight is crossing some sort of line. It's basically admitting the Steel Type suck and turning them into something else and for a Steel Gym, that's just sad.

 

 

Jan in a Q&A once said he regrets Gyms from a narrative point of view, and I sort of see where he's coming from since the plot has moved on from merely challenging the League, but now Gyms are becoming a sour spot in gameplay too. The Gyms have becoming increasingly unrelentingly difficult for the sake of it, and I guess it's because the devs want to challenge the Player's preconceptions to provide a engaging fight, but again, to make two of Saki's pokemon typeless is absurd and breaking the rules that Rejuvenation set for itself, to provide a challenge but by playing by the rules even with advantages like a field. There's a reason why most complaints involve the Gyms, and with 3 more left, the design philosophy is becoming unsustainable. 

 

I'm sure there's a way to keep the steel typing for both Aggron and Bronzong, otherwise, what's the point of making Saki the Steel type leader? 

 

 

 

 

[pizzagod13]

9 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

I was going to put this as part of my V13 review but here goes.

 

 

When it comes to the Saki Fight, I personally think the biggest problem is the seeds. They remove the typing of both her Aggron and Bronzong and there's no indication they do this at all.  This is a bad decision in terms of crafting a Pokemon challenge

 

Yes, Pokemon Rejuvenation is by design meant to be stacked against you, with all the field effects and seeds that the opponent can use while you cant. Such as the Melia fight in this update where she has a magical seed for two of her Pokemon that is juiced up King's shield. This is a large amount of the appeal for most players of this game. And yes conquering the challenge and winning against an opponent with a huge advantage is a big reason why I enjoy this game. However the type less seed ability is a fundamental insult to Pokemon design. This is going from stacked deck but still fair against you to outright breaking the rules. 

 

 

Sure the fields are meant to give the leaders an advantage, and we sort of expect that when going to a gym. But a Gym battle is meant to test your understanding of the Pokemon's type, by turning TWO pokemon into not-steel types, it goes against what Pokemon is. Saki is meant to be the Steel type leader, and to make her even more of a challenge, two of her Pokemon are NOT Steel types. That's not Pokemon, the entire principle of Pokemon's battle system is built on type advantages and disadvantages, and something like two typeless fights just fundamentally isn't part of the rules set up by the game, this is the point where the game actively breaks it's own rules to give a challenge that isn't even fun. Hell any disadvantage for a typeless Pokemon is null and void since Bronzong and Aggron's death ray is still buffed by the field. 

 

 

Did I enjoy the fight? Yes(when I wasn't fighting those two), but typeless Pokemon are a fundamentally bad idea and goes against the spirit of the series and this game. Rejuvenation has always been about giving a challenge with unique rules such as the fields and special enemy only moves, but to turn a Steel Type Leader's Pokemon into a typeless fight is crossing some sort of line. It's basically admitting the Steel Type suck and turning them into something else and for a Steel Gym, that's just sad.

 

 

Jan in a Q&A once said he regrets Gyms from a narrative point of view, and I sort of see where he's coming from since the plot has moved on from merely challenging the League, but now Gyms are becoming a sour spot in gameplay too. The Gyms have becoming increasingly unrelentingly difficult for the sake of it, and I guess it's because the devs want to challenge the Player's preconceptions to provide a engaging fight, but again, to make two of Saki's pokemon typeless is absurd and breaking the rules that Rejuvenation set for itself, to provide a challenge but by playing by the rules even with advantages like a field. There's a reason why most complaints involve the Gyms, and with 3 more left, the design philosophy is becoming unsustainable. 

 

I'm sure there's a way to keep the steel typing for both Aggron and Bronzong, otherwise, what's the point of making Saki the Steel type leader? 

 

 

 

 

This sums up my thoughts on this gym quite nicely! The seeds basically make it so there is literally no counter play. I am still trying to beat this gym right now but everything I have tried has not even come close to winning... Even typeless Sheninja did nothing to help me since the game just bugs out after you stall the AI for like 40-50 turns. 

[fellowry]

I never really rant about battle difficulty but i just need to let out some of this frustration, so yeah Saki is one of the biggest problem in this ver, as some the comment above me has said, Saki's battle is a tad unfair, it has too much advantage and too little weakness to exploit

 

Her team Advantages:

1. Glitch Field remove Physical and Special atk split and use gen 1 damage calculation on sp atk and sp def. 

- This makes her already bulky mon got more CHUNK and Hit hard, not too much of an issue cuz both of us can take advantage of this

 

2. Seed that makes it typeless and increase sp def and def.  Personally i think that this is not a huge problem, typeless mon is nothing new as it has introduced in reborn (Terra's Quaqsire) as long as you hit hard enough it will fall

 

3. Saki exclusive Attack THE U.M.D.  

- This is where I'm beginning to raise my eyebrow, im not going to complain too much if its just reduce 1 stat, but it actually reduce 2 and i dont know how it works but depend on the pkmn it either reduce ATK and SP ATK  or DEF and SP DEF this absolutely DESTROYS set up  and deal crazy amount of damage, it would be much better if its just reduce 1 specific stats, really hard to get around but not impossible

 

4. Auto Wonder room. 

- AND This is where things go Bonkers, this 1 extra move make all of her pkmn into absolute beast that can absorb damage and dish out much stronger atk, this set up cause her Aggron to 2 shot my defensive build Magnezone before i can do anything, it best just to get rid of this entirely as the only counter play is to use our own Wonder room to cancel it out, we need to sacrifice 1 pkmn and 1 of our turn for it, really unfair tbh, if you must put it in then at least teach it to Bronzong, don't make it auto prompt. 

 

5. Bug or illegal Metagross?

- Not sure why but her M Metagross always move first, its even faster than my Max speed IV/EV timid Gengar lol Scratch this, did a double check turns out her M Metagross is lv 90 with max speed investment and Speed Nature, so it will always faster than my Gengar

 

Her team Weakness

1. Most of her team is Slow (except for Metagross lol).

- i think this is the actual way to beat her, her team is slow so we are supposed to do some set ups to balance things out BUT how can we do some set up WHEN HER PKMN ALMOST ALWAYS ONE SHOT AND REDUCE THOSE VERY STATS THAT WE TRYING TO SET UP

 

2. Not immune to burn

- U.M.D is a physical move so burning is the way to go, the only problem is Wonder room+Glitch Field makes her SP Stats Sky high so it barely even matters

 

Counter Play problem:

Unlike other battle where we can create a situation to do counter play or utilize other strategy to bypass opponents niche, this fight basically force you to bring your own wonder room to even have a fighting chance, the only viable strategy i can think of is  Destiny Bond + Revive scum but this only in casual and easy or Seeded + Hone claw shedninja.

 

All in all this fight basically restrict strategy play which actually makes pokemon fun, personally i'm very frustrated when doing this battle. sorry to say but the balancing is all over the place in this particular fight 

[vivaCH]

1 hour ago, fellowry said:

I never really rant about battle difficulty but i just need to let out some of this frustration, so yeah Saki is one of the biggest problem in this ver, as some the comment above me has said, Saki's battle is a tad unfair, it has too much advantage and too little weakness to exploit

 

Her team Advantages:

1. Glitch Field remove Physical and Special atk split and use gen 1 damage calculation on sp atk and sp def. 

- This makes her already bulky mon got more CHUNK and Hit hard, not too much of an issue cuz both of us can take advantage of this

 

2. Seed that makes it typeless and increase sp def and def.  Personally i think that this is not a huge problem, typeless mon is nothing new as it has introduced in reborn (Terra's Quaqsire) as long as you hit hard enough it will fall

 

3. Saki exclusive Attack THE U.M.D.  

- This is where I'm beginning to raise my eyebrow, im not going to complain too much if its just reduce 1 stat, but it actually reduce 2 and i dont know how it works but depend on the pkmn it either reduce ATK and SP ATK  or DEF and SP DEF this absolutely DESTROYS set up  and deal crazy amount of damage, it would be much better if its just reduce 1 specific stats, really hard to get around but not impossible

 

4. Auto Wonder room. 

- AND This is where things go Bonkers, this 1 extra move make all of her pkmn into absolute beast that can absorb damage and dish out much stronger atk, this set up cause her Aggron to 2 shot my defensive build Magnezone before i can do anything, it best just to get rid of this entirely as the only counter play is to use our own Wonder room to cancel it out, we need to sacrifice 1 pkmn and 1 of our turn for it, really unfair tbh, if you must put it in then at least teach it to Bronzong, don't make it auto prompt. 

 

5. Bug or illegal Metagross?

- Not sure why but her M Metagross always move first, its even faster than my Max speed IV/EV timid Gengar lol

 

Her team Weakness

1. Most of her team is Slow (except for Metagross lol).

- i think this is the actual way to beat her, her team is slow so we are supposed to do some set ups to balance things out BUT how can we do some set up WHEN HER PKMN ALMOST ALWAYS ONE SHOT AND REDUCE THOSE VERY STATS THAT WE TRYING TO SET UP

 

2. Not immune to burn

- U.M.D is a physical move so burning is the way to go, the only problem is Wonder room+Glitch Field makes her SP Stats Sky high so it barely even matters

 

Counter Play problem:

Unlike other battle where we can create a situation to do counter play or utilize other strategy to bypass opponents niche, this fight basically force you to bring your own wonder room to even have a fighting chance, the only viable strategy i can think of is  Destiny Bond + Revive scum but this only in casual and easy or Seeded + Hone claw shedninja.

 

All in all this fight basically restrict strategy play which actually makes pokemon fun, personally i'm very frustrated when doing this battle. sorry to say but the balancing is all over the place in this particular fight 

I totally agree with that and I just would like to add that there must be a bug with the Metagross's speed. In fact, it outspeed my perfectly trained Talonflame when it has max HP. (Gale Wings ability makes move first if the pokemon has full HP even if it is slower, but Metagross still moves first lol)

[Rozetheeuwu]

Alright, I'm not that good at explaining my thoughts so I hope I make sense.

Normal mode in v13 as a whole was made harder it feels like. Most battles were really hard, but not unbeatable. Tagging it as spoilers just in case
 

Spoiler

 

tl;dr:

Saki: Glitch field and special move is way to busted and her metagross is too fast and the fact the battle starts with wonder room makes this battle almost impossible.

 

Saki. Everyone already talked about her, but I feel like telling me what bothered me about the battle anyway.

The fact that the battle starts with wonder room being activated without her pokemon having to use the move is ridiculous. (not to mention that  her Agron becomes typeless) I had to use a mon that had wonder room otherwise the battle would be unbeatable. Then the other issue I had was that I had to change my ENTIRE team. I never had to do that in a battle before, maybe swap out one or two pokemon. The only two pokemon that are always on my team that stayed were my meganium and Mawile. Having to change most of my team and then grind low level pokemon I caught up to level 85 is not fun at all.

The only reason I ended up winning that fight was because an error kept popping up during the battle and that caused her corvoknight to basiclly become a punching back (What I mean by that is it couldn't attack for some reason)

Also, I don't know why that metagross was so fast, I had to change the field to a burning one then when she threw out her metagross I send out my Mawile and mega evolved it to one shot it with a sucker punch.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Rozetheeuwu

[Rozetheeuwu]

29 minutes ago, reaper. said:

how did you change the field?

I used fire and grass pledge to create the burning field