The Best and Worst Starters of Reborn

[TheRK9]

A couple of days ago, @TA31 made a post discussing which starter picks are the best in Reborn, and quite a few people chimed in with suggestions as well, and there were many different options for which choices would make the top cut. A lot of good points were brought up, but you can make a case for/against most of the starters, and the nature of forum replies meant that no conclusion was really reached.

So I thought that, instead of just replying to that thread, I would clean things up a bit, and explain myself a little bit more extensively, and rank all of the starters for a playthrough of Pokémon Reborn. I have personally used most of them in a playthrough at one point or another, so I have a bit of experience with how well they all perform. 

Beforehand, I wanted to clarify the criteria of the ranking. Almost all of the starters range between decent and phenomenal, so I will be comparing them to each other, not to other Pokémon. I will also be judging them based on how they would perform in a regular playthrough. So there will be no access to egg moves, optimal IV's etc., and Pokémon will carry a similar moveset and EV spread throughout, rather than the player training an optimized team for every single important fight, like you would in a challenge run with debug. Pokémon Reborn is also balanced in a unique way compared to other Pokémon games. The offensive teams and field effects create a very offensive and volatile environment that benefits some Pokémon more than others. I will only be considering the "important" battles in the game (Gym Leaders, Meteor Admins, PULSE's, Rivals etc.), and only battles that are currently in the game. I will not be considering E19 battles, with the exception of Saphira. While we don't quite know what her team looks like, the nature of Dragon's Den gives us a fairly clear idea of what will be good there and what won't. 
I will also be considering the oppurtunity cost. If there are other Pokémon that can do the same thing as a starter with similar or higher levels of success, that will impact the value you would actually get from using that starter. 

With that said, here is the list of starters. I will be going from highest to lowest, so you will be seeing the best option first. 

S+ Tier
I had to make a separate tier for Blaziken. While the other S tier starters are very good, no other Pokémon has the ability to solo the majority of the game in the same way.

 

Torchic
There is really not a lot to say about Blaziken. Speed Boost is one of the best abilities in the game, especially combined with a Pokémon that gets access to Bulk Up by the time you battle Corey. It gets access to very strong STAB options once you get access to the move relearner, and some solid coverage options through TM's and Move Tutors. Blaziken is capable of sweeping a lot, if not the majority, of important battles in Reborn, and can do some solid damage to the rest.

S Tier
Starters in S tier are incredible throughout the entire game, without taking too long to become useful, or falling off towards the end of the game, and will carry teams throughout entire playthroughs.

Froakie
Greninja's amazing speed comes in very handy against the many offensive threats in Reborn, but the main reason for it's power is obviously Protean. While it can't make great use of it early game, once you reach the mid-late game stages, you unlock more tutors, TM's and level up moves that makes it one of the most versatile Pokémon in the game. Along with its many great support options such as Spikes and Mat Block, Greninja and is able to put in good work in any situation you put it in. 

Chimchar
Similarly to Greninja, the combination of good speed, offense and coverage options is very valuable in a game like Reborn. While it can't quite match Greninja's versatility, or Blaziken's sweeping potential, Infernape has early access to very powerful STAB moves and priority paired with a fantastic offensive typing, making it one of the best revenge killers in the game. 

A Tier
Starters in A tier aren't quite as versatile as those in S tier, but still fill an important role on a team, and generally perform that role better than its competitors, making them invaluable and hard to replace.

Popplio
This might be surprisingly high up on the list for some. However, Primarina has the single highest natural offensive stat out of all the starters, along with adequate bulk and one of the best typings in the game, both defensively and offensively. Water/Fairy allows Primarina to matchup well into the majority of gyms outside of the early game, as well as the many Rock and Ground types in Team Meteor. It gets access to very powerful STAB moves in Moonblast and Sparkling Aria relatively early on, as well as Encore, one of the best support moves in the game. The combination of Liquid Voice and Hyper Voice is also very useful against many of the double battles in the game. It is also noteworthy that Primarina might be one of the best answers to Saphira in E19, as it is not only immune to Dragon, but also deals with Fire and Steel type attacks better than other Fairy types would.

Cyndaquil
Typhlosion is known for doing one thing: fast Eruptions. And that is something it does very well. Through the move relearner, Eruption can be learned before the player even battles Aya, which is ridiculously powerful for this point in the game. It also has the ability to set several battle fields on fire, further powering up it's Fire-type attacks by 2.25x, and access to Flash Fire allows you to fight fire with fire against Charlotte. While Typhlosion is still rendered useless in some fights, it's normally sub-par versatility is compensated heavily by it's access to Nature Power.

Snivy
Serperior is another one-trick pony. While it isn't terrible early on, with natural access to Nature Power, Leech Seed, Coil and Giga Drain, what lands Serperior such a high spot on the list is the ability to spam Contrary Leaf Storms. While it becomes available quite late, around the time you fight Luna, once you actually reach that point, Serperior is one of the best Pokémon in the game, being able to sweep or dent several teams in the Reborn mid-late game. It is also one of the fastest starters available, which is always important.

B Tier
Pokémon in B tier are solid Pokémon that fulfill a unique function, but are held back in one way or another that prevents them from carrying teams like the Pokémon above can.

Mudkip
With the highest Base Stat Total out of all the starters, and one of the best defensive typings in the game, Swampert is known to be one of the most well-rounded Pokémon there is. Swampert has natural access to Earthquake, which is more than some Ground types can manage, as well as Water-type STAB, coverage options such as Rock Slide and Sludge Wave, and learning Protect by level-up, which is phenomenal. Although it's Mega Evolution is not available as of now, it will definetely be a strong sweeping option on Rain teams in the late game. While Swampert fills the role of a bulky mixed attacker very well, it is a lot easier to replace than the A tier starters, which is why it lands at the top of B tier instead.
 

DISCLAIMER: If you have played VGC in the past few years, I recommend that you avert your eyes from this section.
Litten
When playing against an AI, Intimidate may very well be the very best Ability in the game, especially in the many Double Battles of Reborn. Incineroar happens to one of the best users of this Ability, with it's good Attack and Defenses, and Fire/Dark granting a very unique set of resistances. While it's potential as a support Pokémon is crippled by moves like Fake Out, Parting Shot and U-Turn being unavailable in one way or another, Incineroar's good natural bulk, attack, early access to Bulk up, and Torracat being surprisingly strong early game still makes Litten one of the better choices in the game.

Fennekin
While Delphox may not seem too special, it is very useful in Reborn. It is faster than Charizard and Typhlosion, and gets access to strong dual STAB by the time you fight Shade. While this doesn't fulfill much of a niche on it's own, Delphox's Psychic typing gives it access to lots of good utility options as well, such as Switcheroo, Reflect, Light Screen, Trick Room, Magic Coat and Snatch. Delphox also benefits from Mystical Fire and Magician being heavily buffed on several fields throughout the game.

Piplup
The Piplup line is very mediocre in almost every way. A generic learnset, mediocre abilities, decent bulk and Special Attack, but nothing too special. However, the Steel type is so incredibly strong that it is enough to boost Empoleon up 2-3 tiers, since it has a whopping 11 resistances and immunities, while only having 3 weaknesses. It is held back by the fact that it can't learn Flash Cannon without a TM, which only becomes available after beating Titania, but simply being the only Water/Steel type in the game is enough to make Piplup an above-average starter.

C Tier
C tier makes a lot of these Pokémon sound a lot worse than they actually are. This tier is the middle of the pack. The Pokémon here are still strong, but can't quite compete in the higher tiers, or simply don't fill enough of a niche to be worth picking. 

Charmander
The Charmander line is identical to the Cyndaquil line in terms of stats. And while Charizard gets access to decently powerful moves early on, missing out on Eruption, Nature Power and Flash Fire cripples Charizard's ability to be a fast nuke like Typhlosion. Charizard still gets access to some very good moves though, and alongside it's decent Special Attack and Speed, still allows it to be a good attacker. However, it is still outclassed at that by Talonflame, which is available before Corey, is faster and gets access to priority Acrobatics and Tailwind. While early Dragon Rage might seem really good, Reborn's high level curve means it will fall off a lot faster than in vanilla games, and isn't really useful after Florinia. Charizard's biggest redeeming factor is it's Mega Evolutions. It's X form is strong, although Dragon Dance is an egg move and the Charizardite X is available very late, and the Charizardite Y is not available at all as of now.

Treecko
While being pure Grass does very little for this line, the incredible speed, very early access to Leaf Blade, good coverage and Unburden make Grovyle and Sceptile good sweepers/revenge killers. While they lack the power of other sweeping mons, and are limited by the late access to Swords Dance, the fact that almost all fast Grass types are very defensive gives Sceptile a comfortable niche. Mega Sceptile is also the fastest Dragon type in the game, which will be extremely useful against Saphira.
 

Bulbasaur
The Bulbasaur line has access to a lot of good utility, including Leech Seed, status-inducing moves and recovery. This is always a useful Pokémon to have, but the main thing holding this line back is how many other Pokémon, most notably Budew, can completely replace or even outshine it. The Mega Evolution is nice, even if it is available really late, and is extremely strong against Amaria specifically.
 

Rowlet
While Decidueye is held back by it's poor stat distribution and limited access to Swords Dance, it still fulfills a unique role, since the only other Grass/Ghost type is extremely slow. Spirit Shackle gives Decidueye access to consistent, strong physical Ghost STAB, which puts it above most other physical Ghost types. STAB Priority is also very useful to revenge kill with, and early access to reliable recovery as well as passable bulk allows Decidueye to take out some bulkier opponents. 

Tepig
Emboar hits incredibly hard, with access to strong STAB attacks and coverage moves that are boosted by Reckless. But that is about the extent to which this line is useful. It is too slow and not bulky enough to survive for very long, and is heavily outclassed by the other Fire/Fightings. A straight-forward heavy-hitter is always useful, though.

Turtwig
Similarly to the Bulbasaur line, the Tepig line gets access to a lot of good utility such as Leech Seed and Synthesis. Torterra also has the advantage of a unique typing, as well as learing Earthquake extremely early. However, it doesn't hit quite as hard as it feels like it should, and doesn't offer nearly as useful resistances as other Grass types, and its weaknesses to common types makes its low speed easy to exploit, and prevents it from being a great defensive wall.

D Tier
Pokémon in D tier aren't bad, but don't fulfill much of a niche over other similar Pokémon.

Chespin
Chesnaught has decent defensive stats, and a decent defensive Ability, but is held back heavily by having a terrible defensive typing. While it is too slow to utilise its offensive tools, it has access to some very good support options, most importantly Leech Seed+Spiky Shield. It is still quite vulnerable, but it's movepool is enough to place it at the top of this tier.

Oshawott
Considering it's mediocre stat distribution and abilities, I initially thought Samurott had nothing going for it over the other pure Water types. However, it gets access to Swords Dance by level up, which automatically puts it above everything else in this tier. While it has access to Aqua Jet, it's still slightly too slow and weak to properly sweep, but it still poses a bit of a threat.

Totodile
Sheer Force is a great Ability. However, without easy access to Dragon Dance, Feraligatr doesn't make great use of it. It is an alright, basic Water type that hits pretty hard once it actually gets access to good Water-type attacks, but is very mediocre across the board.

Squirtle
Very similar to Totodile, except it is more defensive and with a worse Ability. Blastoise doesn't do much that most Water types can't, and is unfortunately very redundant because of it. While it's Mega Evolution makes it better, it is still worse than most other Megas, and is also available too late into the game to really help it.

F Tier
Meganium

Chikorita
There really isn't much to say. Pure Grass was already bad on Serperior and Sceptile, but Meganium doesn't have any tools to compensate at all. It gets access to the same support options as most Grass types, but it doesn't really do anything beyond that.


So that is my ranking! If you have any thoughts or critisisms, I would love to hear them!

[R.B]

I think you're underrating charizard - it takes a bit to come online, but once you get access to ninetails in Agate circus, it becomes an extremely strong sun sweeper, with similar damage to typhlosion's eruptions and much better coverage (solar beam in particular is a huge deal, giving it a reliable way to get past water and rock types that typhlosion can't touch outside of favorable nature power fields).  Coupled with its good early game, it's solidly A or B.

Mudkip is closer to C tier than B tier - it has a really rough early game with the fern battles, florinia, and pulse tangrowth all making its grass weakness extremely relevant, and while it's very good in the late game you're not missing much if you just wait until you can do its event post-Agate Circus.

Snivy has a similar problem - until it gets leaf storm, it's possibly the worst starter outright, and while contrary+leaf storm is powerful it's not so much better than a normal setup sweeper that it makes up for the awful early game.

While water/steel is a good type, there are plenty of other reasonable steel types in the early game (wormadam-trash and bronzong being probably the most notable), and given Piplup's otherwise low powerlevel I don't think the typing does enough to rescue it from D.

Decidueye I think has a case for B - the combination of feather dance and u-turn makes it a pretty effective slow pivot, and while it's not as generically powerful as some of the other B tier pokemon, there's not much else that can replace it within its particular niche.

 

Otherwise, seems like a solid list.

[Dreamy]

I'd put totodile much higher - It does take a while to come online with d.dance, but with its solid coverage from some tutors and sheer force (especially with Life Orb later) it's incredibly destructive lategame after even a single dance, and monowater is good defensively too for helping it set that up. I'd put it high B to A from personal experience and comparing to what else is in those tiers

[Alisae]

I think as of the current version, we can already get every single mon, we don't really care what content/battles is after we have access to all starters in game. No reason to take into consideration Saphira because by the time E19 comes out we will have access to all of the starters.

 

As for the tier list

- Snivy is probably an A tier it's probably just the most boring starter to me?

- I think Incineroar is more than just a bulky support doubles mon. It takes hits and hits hards. I imagine not having Fake Out is rough, I imagine its still going to be hitting hard with flare blitz and also it has decent dark STAB. I think Intimidate along with just how bulky is its and how hard it can hit makes it A for me. Nothing is as unique as Incineroar but I never played with it in Reborn so /shrug

- Charizard being slower than Typhlosion is factually wrong. I believe they both have the same base speeds. I think you are undervaluing solar power here. Solar Power + Sun + Heat Wave I think hits harder than 1 Typhlosion Eruption w/o Solar Power and Sun. While you get Sunny Day before the point of no return and a Vulpix in Agate Circus, it would need to be considered how good it is during the period in which you get the items needed to enable Charizard up to Adrienn since at that point in the game can you obtain Torkoal, Charmander, and Bulbasaur.

- I think Unburden + Seeds is good enough for me along with Nature Power access to make Treecko a B but I've been meaning to play with it and haven't gotten around to doing so yet.

 

fwiw, my on tier list is probably like

S - Torchic

A - Chimchar, Froakie, Litten, Cyndaquil, Snivy, Popplio

B - Charizard, Bulbasaur, Treecko, Totodile (needs ddance)

everything else seems not worth mentioning.

[LeoYT]

I'm actually making a video on this, but the script is only half done.
S- Torchic (Speed boost bulk up strat), Froakie (Protean), Turtwig (Super early access to earthquake plus curse makes it just like a Blaziken without speed)

 

Worst starter is Squirtle simply because its the first starter you catch in the wild and at that point all the anti-water boss battles are behind you

[Seel The Deal]

1 hour ago, Alisae said:

I think you are undervaluing solar power here. Solar Power + Sun + Heat Wave I think hits harder than 1 Typhlosion Eruption w/o Solar Power and Sun.

that begs the question though: if you're considering sun support with Charizard, why not consider it with Typhlosion as well? Typhlosion hits harder even considering Solar Power and doesn't passively lose HP:

 

252 SpA Charcoal Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 390-460 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Charcoal Solar Power Charizard Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 370-436 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

zard is still arguably the better sun sweeper since you have more freedom to tank random priority moves and weak resisted hits, but even that's a stretch thanks to the passive damage and it's fairly close regardless

 

6 hours ago, TheRK9 said:

Chesnaught has decent defensive stats, and a decent defensive Ability, but is held back heavily by having a terrible defensive typing.

lots of weaknesses doesn't necessarily mean a typing is bad defensively. Chesnaught carries resists to Water, Electric, Grass, Dark, and both Rock and Ground which is absolutely massive and is a trait only shared by non-Heatproof Bronzong, Flygon, Claydol, and Torterra, none of which have nearly the same physical bulk nor natural access to a Protect clone. its typing is exploitable but it shuts down a lot more than you'd think and thanks to seed + shield recovery it often outright beats physical attackers that only have coverage to hit it super-effectively, and not STAB. also worth noting that half of its weaknesses are very dominantly special and thus as a physical tank it's not Chesnaught's job to deal with them anyway

 

mostly agree with the list tho, would put Fennekin and Chespin a good deal higher and that's about it. I mentioned Charmander being top-tier for a locke in that other thread but in a casual playthrough its earlygame talents aren't nearly as necessary, and its bad midgame becomes a much bigger issue when you're not optimizing your team for every major battle. though it might be worth mentioning (even if it doesn't change its ranking) that Chikorita actually learns Reflect and Light Screen naturally, and quite early at that (Reflect pre-Julia, and Light Screen pre-Shelly by holding off on Meganium), giving it that small niche over other grasses

 

Bulbasaur would be S tier if it got decent Poison STAB change my mind

[TheRK9]

14 hours ago, R.B said:

I think you're underrating charizard - it takes a bit to come online, but once you get access to ninetails in Agate circus, it becomes an extremely strong sun sweeper, with similar damage to typhlosion's eruptions and much better coverage (solar beam in particular is a huge deal, giving it a reliable way to get past water and rock types that typhlosion can't touch outside of favorable nature power fields).  Coupled with its good early game, it's solidly A or B.

I disagree. It's early game is way below average. The lack of good early Fire moves really hurts it, since you're relying on Ember up until level 28, making it worse than the other Fire starters for all of the early Grass types, and once you're past Florinia Dragon Rage doesn't even 2HKO anything anymore. Charizard is only useful once sun becomes available, which is more than halfway through the game, and even then, it requires you to run Ninetales, which isn't a great Pokémon besides sun, it requires set-up, and even when fully set up, all it does is hit hard. It's not fast enough to stay in without getting revenge killed by several Pokémon in the game, so it doesn't do much in the mid-late game anyways. Samson and Ciel revenge kill it with fast Pokémon and Focus Sashes, Terra negates it's weather, Charlotte resists Fire/Grass, Fairy Tale Field makes Fire types way worse against Titania and Adrienn, Amaria and Hardy, well, you know. It has it's moments, and is decent with sun, but it is wayyyy too niche, and is also outclassed by Houndoom once you get the Mega-Z Ring.

14 hours ago, R.B said:

Mudkip is closer to C tier than B tier - it has a really rough early game with the fern battles, florinia, and pulse tangrowth all making its grass weakness extremely relevant, and while it's very good in the late game you're not missing much if you just wait until you can do its event post-Agate Circus.

While it has some rough matchups early game, it also does very well against all of the Victoria and Fern battles (besides Magical Leaf Kirlia, but Kirlia sucks ass so whatever), it solo's Julia, it does well against Corey, Cal, Aya, PULSE Muk etc. All and all, it doesn't have a phenomenal early game due to the few tough matchups, but still above average. I decided not to include the other starter-events since it makes the late game and sometimes midgame completely redundant for a lot of the list, which made the topic a lot less interesting. That would mean that I would have to completely ignore the fact that Emboar is good against Serra and Noel because you can get it normally at that point anyways, which is a much more boring way to evaluate.

15 hours ago, R.B said:

Snivy has a similar problem - until it gets leaf storm, it's possibly the worst starter outright, and while contrary+leaf storm is powerful it's not so much better than a normal setup sweeper that it makes up for the awful early game.

Snivy is really not that bad early game. It is slightly below average, but simply being fast with access to good support moves makes it usable and gives it a niche over the other supportive Grass types. While Leaf Storm relatively late, Reborn's high level curve means you still get it around the time you reach 7th Street. As for not being so much better than a normal sweeper, that is just incorrect. A normal sweeper actually needs to set up. For this, it actually needs to survive, and take the cost of not doing anything else at the same time. Since Serperior can do this while revenge killing or breaking Focus Sashes, etc., it is way more versatile in it's setup opportunities. Any fast Pokémon with natural access to Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Bulk Up etc. is immediately good, and Serperior is not only faster than most of these Pokémon, but also better at setting up. 

14 hours ago, R.B said:

While water/steel is a good type, there are plenty of other reasonable steel types in the early game (wormadam-trash and bronzong being probably the most notable), and given Piplup's otherwise low powerlevel I don't think the typing does enough to rescue it from D.

Steel is one of the least abundant early types in Reborn. Wormadam is decent, but falls off late game and leaves you at the mercy of a good Hidden Power typing, and is complete deadweight for the first split of the game. Bronzor isn't reliably available, the same applies to Drilbur and Pawniard. Klinklang is decent, Togedemaru is mediocre, Alolaslash is bad and that's about it for early Steel types. And even while keeping this in mind, these Pokémon don't fill nearly the same role as Empoleon. Empoleon is a bulky Water type with decent offense, but it has a niche over other bulky Water types because of it's phenomenal secondary type, similarly to Swampert and Primarina. I condsidered putting it at the top of C tier, but it is definetely better than the other starters in that tier, which is why I decided to leave it at the bottom of B. 

15 hours ago, R.B said:

Decidueye I think has a case for B - the combination of feather dance and u-turn makes it a pretty effective slow pivot, and while it's not as generically powerful as some of the other B tier pokemon, there's not much else that can replace it within its particular niche.

Decidueye definetely has a niche, but that niche just isn't strong enough. It could be placed above Venusaur and Sceptile, but it just isn't good enough at any specific thing to get it into a higher tier. Moves like Feather Dance are also a lot better in games where the AI doesn't just switch if you lower their stats too much, and when they are used by Pokémon with better speed or bulk.

[TheRK9]

13 hours ago, Dreamy said:

I'd put totodile much higher - It does take a while to come online with d.dance, but with its solid coverage from some tutors and sheer force (especially with Life Orb later) it's incredibly destructive lategame after even a single dance, and monowater is good defensively too for helping it set that up. I'd put it high B to A from personal experience and comparing to what else is in those tiers

Dragon Dance is an egg move, and

16 hours ago, TheRK9 said:

there will be no access to egg moves, optimal IV's etc.

 

[TheRK9]

13 hours ago, Alisae said:

I think as of the current version, we can already get every single mon, we don't really care what content/battles is after we have access to all starters in game. No reason to take into consideration Saphira because by the time E19 comes out we will have access to all of the starters.

I decided to not account for this because it makes a lot of the analysis really boring since it completely invalidates large sections of the game for most of the Pokémon, which isn't a very interesting way to analyse. Consider it more of a ranking of how good each starter is throughout the game rather than how much you are missing out on by not picking it (besides the afformentioned opportunity cost of simply being easily replaced by other Pokémon).

13 hours ago, Alisae said:

I think Incineroar is more than just a bulky support doubles mon. It takes hits and hits hards. I imagine not having Fake Out is rough, I imagine its still going to be hitting hard with flare blitz and also it has decent dark STAB. I think Intimidate along with just how bulky is its and how hard it can hit makes it A for me. Nothing is as unique as Incineroar but I never played with it in Reborn so /shrug

Incineroar is good, and B tier is a good rank. It has a decent, albeit fairly volatile typing, well-rounded bulk, decent Attack and a solid early game. It is still slightly worse than Swampert based on typing alone, and all of the Pokémon in A and S tier just have some redeeming factor that bridges the gap from good to great. 

13 hours ago, Alisae said:

Charizard being slower than Typhlosion is factually wrong. I believe they both have the same base speeds. I think you are undervaluing solar power here. Solar Power + Sun + Heat Wave I think hits harder than 1 Typhlosion Eruption w/o Solar Power and Sun. While you get Sunny Day before the point of no return and a Vulpix in Agate Circus, it would need to be considered how good it is during the period in which you get the items needed to enable Charizard up to Adrienn since at that point in the game can you obtain Torkoal, Charmander, and Bulbasaur.

I was referring to Talonflame when I said it was outclassed in speed. They have the exact same base stats. So do their preevos. Because Jotho is a boring, unoriginal, trashy cash-grab from 1999 that isn't hated because of nostalgia. When it comes to underrating Solar Power, I honestly believe most people overrate it. First off, Typhlosion's Eruption is 10% stronger than Charizard's Heat Wave/Flamethrower if they are both in Sun. But Typhlosion is 167% as strong as Charizard without Sun, gets access to Eruption before Serra, whereas Drought is first available in the Circus, and requires you to specifically strategise and build your team around it. It's not bad, but a lot of Charizard being good is just sun being good, with both Typhlosion and later on Mega Houndoom doing it's job better. Adrienn's Pokémon are also immune to Fire once the mist gets removed.

Quote

I think you are undervaluing solar power Intimidate here. Qwilfish is bulkier than Toxapex if you set up screens first.

This logic doesn't really hold up.

13 hours ago, Alisae said:

I think Unburden + Seeds is good enough for me along with Nature Power access to make Treecko a B but I've been meaning to play with it and haven't gotten around to doing so yet.

I thought this initially, but when I actually used it it fell short on it's poor offenses. Leaf Blade comes off of a base 85 Attack, and Sceptile is really crippled by not being able to use its full movepool. Coverage moves like Energy Ball, Acrobatics, Rock Slide, Thunder Punch and X-Scissor are available late into the game, and Swords Dance and Earthquake aren't available. Sceptile is naturally fast enough to outspeed 90% of it's opponents anyways, so the Unburden boost doesn't help it as much as it could if it actually had the tools to be a sweeper. 

13 hours ago, Alisae said:

S - Torchic

A - Chimchar, Froakie, Litten, Cyndaquil, Snivy, Popplio

B - Charizard, Bulbasaur, Treecko, Totodile (needs ddance)

everything else seems not worth mentioning.

This is pretty much my list but you combined most of S A and B into a single tier and moved up the B tiers. It might be more accurate in general considering the starters are better than average Pokémon, but putting everything this high means C, D and F tiers will be spread thin. I ranked Totodile low under the assumption that it doesn't get ddance, since it is an egg move which starter picks don't get.

[TheRK9]

11 hours ago, LeoYT said:

I'm actually making a video on this, but the script is only half done.

Wdum half done, you just read it :p

[TheRK9]

9 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

lots of weaknesses doesn't necessarily mean a typing is bad defensively. Chesnaught carries resists to Water, Electric, Grass, Dark, and both Rock and Ground

This would hold more weight in an easier game, but in reborn, there is more coverage. Many weaknesses and many resistances isn't terrible in the sense that you can bring a Parasect against the Water gym, but if you try to bring Chesnaught against Hardy you get Aerial Aced to the moon. Fern's Rhyhorn line carries Fire Fang/Fire Punch in every battle, Amaria's entire team has Ice type coverage etc. Calling the typing terrible is perhaps an overstatement, but on a defensive Pokémon in a game like Reborn, having 6 weaknesses is just 6 gyms where you are mostly deadweight, and it means a lot of Pokémon will have coverage against you. It can still beat things that have coverage, can still beat half of Luna and Terra's teams, for instance, but so can most Fighting and Grass types respectively anyways. You also get absolutely stonewalled by 3 types, which is worse than the vast majority of type combinations. All and all, Chesnaught isn't bad, it's just not as good as most of the other starters.

10 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

would put Fennekin a good deal higher

I put it pretty high, 8/21 is definetely good. But all of the S and A tier Pokémon have some redeeming factor that allow them to carry large portions of playthroughs, whether it's because of an insane movepool, ability or typing. Delphox is a fast, strong Fire type, but it doesn't have as good of an offensive typing as Infernape, can't nuke with Eruption like Typhlosion, or sweep like Blaziken. It is a good choice, but it's not quite top tier. Maybe it could fit above Incineroar, but any higher would be a stretch IMO.

10 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

I mentioned Charmander being top-tier for a locke in that other thread but in a casual playthrough its earlygame talents aren't nearly as necessary, and its bad midgame becomes a much bigger issue when you're not optimizing your team for every major battle.

As someone who does a lot of lockes, while I didn't account for it in this ranking, I still disagree. It is better if you play more precise and less casually, but still not top-tier. Providing a good early game is very important for lockes. If you weaken your early game you will lose more mons early on, which will weaken your team overall and is likely to snowball into making your mid-late game run bad as well.

10 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

Chikorita actually learns Reflect and Light Screen naturally, and quite early at that (Reflect pre-Julia, and Light Screen pre-Shelly by holding off on Meganium), giving it that small niche over other grasses

I will not say anything nice about this Pokémon and you can't make me.

10 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

Bulbasaur would be S tier if it got decent Poison STAB change my mind

Sad Gengar noises

[Seel The Deal]

13 minutes ago, TheRK9 said:

It can still beat things that have coverage, can still beat half of Luna and Terra's teams, for instance, but so can most Fighting and Grass types respectively anyways.

not really? most Fighting types have few resists and don't have good defensive moves and most Grass types simply aren't anywhere near as bulky as Chesnaught, but even aside from that the reason you're winning those matchups isn't JUST bulk, it's also the fact that you're dealing nearly 1/3 of the opponent's health passively over 1 vulnerable turn while recovering a similar amount. taking your examples, Fern's Rhydon/Krookodile can do fuck all to beat it, neither of Amaria Singles' physical attackers actually have coverage for it (lol ice shard), and Hardy/Amaria Doubles get utterly invalidated by Spiky Shield + good offensive partners, and that's all without any defensive EV investment and still being healthy enough to take on neutral threats afterwards.

 

I'm also not sure how its resists "hold more weight in an easier game [with less coverage]," isn't any defensive Grass kinda garbage by that logic? and other excellent walls/tanks like Slowbro, Rhyperior and Metagross? defensive mons are rarely crippled by poor weaknesses, it's much more commonly about poor resists, poor stats and/or poor movepools

 

idt Chesnaught's a mon for every team or any kind of god amongst mons, but I'd definitely stand by it being better than anything you've got in C tier.

 

justice for Scolipede

[TheRK9]

31 minutes ago, Seel The Deal said:

the reason you're winning those matchups isn't JUST bulk, it's also the fact that you're dealing nearly 1/3 of the opponent's health passively over 1 vulnerable turn while recovering a similar amount

Residual damage and healing is good, and it allows Chesnaught to reliably beat the things it's supposed to. That's not the issue, the issue is that it isn't supposed to reliably beat very many things. This is because it has too many weaknesses for a defensive Pokémon, and here is why that matters:

If a defensive Pokémon isn't specifically weak to an offensive Pokémon, it will generally beat that Pokémon on even ground, providing it has the defensive tools to do so, and that that Pokémon is specifically designed to wall-break. Defensive Pokémon would generally prefer to be weak to less Pokémon, but don't mind not being strong against that many Pokémon quite as much. Offensive Pokémon, on the other hand, would rather have more favorable matchups at the cost of having more weaknesses. Defensive Pokémon don't need to hit strong attacks to win, they rely on other tools such as status, entry hazards, phasing and weak-but-consistent attacks to beat Pokémon while being more sustainable and shutting down set-up options and/or providing support for their team. An offensive Pokémon (besides wall-breakers) tries to break teams through prior chip-damage, hazards and other team support, along with set-up and good coverage to beat defensive checks. While there are a million exceptions to every rule in Pokémon, this is a dynamic that is seen in regular playthoughs (and is more significant in harder ones) and all levels of competitive play. To provide an example:

Both Hippowdon and Chesnaught can beat a Krookodile. But only Hippowdon can beat a Staraptor. Chesnaught has a good matchup against one of these Pokémon, and a bad matchup against the other. Hippowdon has a neutral matchup against both. But because Hippowdon is bulky enough to stall out neutral threats, it can still beat both. A defensive Chesnaught would beat the Krookodile regardless of whether it resists it's attacks or not by virtue of it's good bulk, the afformentioned Spiky Shield+Leech Seed, and Synthesis combo, and it would also beat Staraptor if it wasn't weak to Flying. This is an example of how it's resistances to Ground and Dark, while helpful, aren't quite necessary, but it's weakness to Flying cripples it. Even if it was a 2x weakness, it wouldn't solve the issue, Chesnaught wouldn't beat a Gallade either, while Hippowdon still would.

If you look at good defensive Pokémon, you will find that there are more of them that have few resistances than ones that have many weaknesses. Neither is good, but one is a lot more restricting than the others. In competitive specifically, there is another factor that plays into making resistances important, and that is Choice Band/Specs breakers, as well as the nature of the game requiring a lot of switching and minimising chip damage. This doesn't really translate to play against an AI though, so it doesn't really matter. 

To provide some examples of Pokémon that are great defensively despite not having very many resistances: Porygon2 (1 weakness, 1 resistance), Blissey (same), the afformentioned Hippowdon (3 weaknesses, 3 resistances), Milotic (4 resistances, 2 weaknesses), Swampert (same). 

A lot of these Pokémon have comparable bulk to Chesnaught, and similar or even worse levels of utility. Yet they are still generally considered to be better, not because of what they matchup well into, but because of what they don't matchup poorly into. Pokémon like Altaria and Cradily are in similar situations of having good resistances, bulk, utility etc., but are bad because of their many weaknesses. This is not the end-all of defensive Pokémon of course, but it is a big factor for what makes a good defensive typing. Things like movepools and stats are more important, but for a Pokémon that outstanding, the typing makes Chesnaught worse than many similar options.

Many weaknesses is also particularly bad in a game where most of your opponents will have all Pokémon mono-type teams. A Pokémon with no weaknesses and no resistances could be alright against the entire game. A pokémon with many weaknesses, in this example Chesnaught, will be complete deadweight against Corey, Aya, Serra, Radomus, Charlotte, Ciel, Adrienn and so on. It is good if you swap out your team for every fight, but for an entire playthrough, fighting entire fights one mon down should be avoided as much as possible, and that can be done by having defensive Pokémon with less weaknesses. 

1 hour ago, Seel The Deal said:

Fighting types have few resists and don't have good defensive moves and most Grass types simply aren't anywhere near as bulky as Chesnaught

This isn't quite as important. You want type coverage to beat specific types, and you want bulk as security against pokémon in general. Sure, Chesnaught can beat Fern's Rhydon and Krookodile, but you will struggle to find many Grass types that can't. Sure, Chesnaught can kill Luna's Bisharp, Tyranitar and Weavile, but so can any other decent Fighting types. A lot of Grass types can perform the role as a Grass type adequatly well regardless, but filling a role as a wall/tank/pivot/sweeper etc. is where most Pokémon fall short. Chesnaught is a good Grass type, but the Grass type comes at the cost of being worse as a wall, meaining it's a lot less versatile. 

1 hour ago, Seel The Deal said:

isn't any defensive Grass kinda garbage by that logic? and other excellent walls/tanks like Slowbro, Rhyperior and Metagross?

No, because as I said, this isn't the end-all of a Pokémon's viability, and some Pokémon have extremely good moves/abilities/stats that compensate for their drawbacks. All types are also not as strong, so being weak to them matters less.
-4/5 of Slowbro's weaknesses are Electric, Grass, Ghost and Bug, none of which are exactly the most relevant physical types. Slowbro also has access to Regenerator, Teleport, Future Sight, Trick Room etc. 
-Rhyperior has amazing physical Attack and Defense, one of the best offensive type combinations in the game, and Solid Rock. 
-Metagross is a Steel type, is a Pseudo-legendary, has good coverage and a broken Mega Evolution. And it only has 4 weaknesses, which is pretty average.
-Defensive Grass types either have some other redeeming factor, or a good complementary typing, such as Ferrothorn. And even then, many bulky Grass types are held back heavily by their typing, such as Shaymin, Leafeon and Cradily.
- Tangrowth specifically is available very early in Reborn, has a wayyy better ability than Chesnaught, better offensive potential, natural access to Grassy Terrain etc.

Again, Chesnaught isn't bad by any means, but compared to the other starters, having very little offensive potential is highly detrimental in a game like Pokémon Reborn. Especially when everything hits harder than normal, defensive Pokémon have to be extremely good at what they do to not fall off significantly. You could make a case for it being better than some of the Grass types in the tier above, but Sceptile gets Seeds+Unburden and good speed, Decidueye gets recovery, STAB priority, reliable Ghost STAB, and natural U-Turn, Venusaur gets Sleep Powder, a better defensive typing, fits on Sun teams, and gets a good mega, and Torterra gets early Earthquake and Curse.

scolipede is broken as shit anyways who cares lol

[Seel The Deal]

6 hours ago, TheRK9 said:

stuff

hella text wall so I'm not gonna respond to anything specific, but one thing you're sorely missing here is that neutralities are often NOT enough in Reborn. many major battles will have you up against trainers abusing powerful field effects that supercharge STAB moves to levels that most pokemon cannot handle. in the earlygame you can potentially offset this by overleveling/evolving but past Shelly you aren't given much room for that. Arcanine in theory should have an excellent matchup against Shade with its great mixed bulk, Intimidate, recovery and ability to hit back super-effectively with Crunch, but in practice it gets overwhelmed very quickly by field-boosted STAB ghost moves.

 

I'm also not sure why you made so many references to things that are simply not relevant in Reborn here, including but not limited to FSight + Teleport Slowbro, hazards (not entirely irrelevant but not likely to accomplish much against an AI that rarely switches), Mega Metagross etc. they kinda obscure your point more than prove it tbh

 

we clearly have different stances here and I don't frankly want to get into a battle of essays so I'm just gonna leave it there. at the end of the day you're free to build and play how you wish and choosing not to use something like Chesnaught because you don't want to deal with its weaknesses is valid regardless of whether it's good or bad, or what some rando on the internet has to say about it

 

give it gunk shot anyway, who needs game balance when you can have funny big numbers

[TheRK9]

10 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

hella text wall so I'm not gonna respond to anything specific, but one thing you're sorely missing here is that neutralities are often NOT enough in Reborn. many major battles will have you up against trainers abusing powerful field effects that supercharge STAB moves to levels that most pokemon cannot handle. in the earlygame you can potentially offset this by overleveling/evolving but past Shelly you aren't given much room for that. Arcanine in theory should have an excellent matchup against Shade with its great mixed bulk, Intimidate, recovery and ability to hit back super-effectively with Crunch, but in practice it gets overwhelmed very quickly by field-boosted STAB ghost moves.

This is true to an extent, but it doesn't change the fact that Chesnaught is more niche than you would want a physical wall to be. 

10 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

I'm also not sure why you made so many references to things that are simply not relevant in Reborn here, including but not limited to FSight + Teleport Slowbro, hazards (not entirely irrelevant but not likely to accomplish much against an AI that rarely switches), Mega Metagross etc. they kinda obscure your point more than prove it tbh

This was just to explain the concept in general. If we're talking about Reborn specifically, Regenerator is still one of the best abilities in the game, and Metagross is honestly not that good outside of the fact that it happens to matchup well into a few of the fights. Well, not that good compared to the other pseudo's, at least.

10 hours ago, Seel The Deal said:

we clearly have different stances here and I don't frankly want to get into a battle of essays so I'm just gonna leave it there. at the end of the day you're free to build and play how you wish and choosing not to use something like Chesnaught because you don't want to deal with its weaknesses is valid regardless of whether it's good or bad, or what some rando on the internet has to say about it

Good point, I got a bit carried away because pokémon as a whole is complicated and I honestly could've made that six times as long if I wanted to lol. Again, Chesnaught is decent, I just think many weaknesses+bad speed shuts it down for too much of the game. It could be made a case for anywhere in C tier, especially since I've come to realise that Sceptile and Venusaur are a bit worse than I initially considered them to be.

 

Spoiler

fuck you shelly what is this bullshit  

 

[PoketrainerZane]

On 3/27/2022 at 3:40 PM, TheRK9 said:

On 3/27/2022 at 3:40 PM, TheRK9 said:

A couple of days ago, @TA31 made a post discussing which starter picks are the best in Reborn, and quite a few people chimed in with suggestions as well, and there were many different options for which choices would make the top cut. A lot of good points were brought up, but you can make a case for/against most of the starters, and the nature of forum replies meant that no conclusion was really reached.

So I thought that, instead of just replying to that thread, I would clean things up a bit, and explain myself a little bit more extensively, and rank all of the starters for a playthrough of Pokémon Reborn. I have personally used most of them in a playthrough at one point or another, so I have a bit of experience with how well they all perform. 

Beforehand, I wanted to clarify the criteria of the ranking. Almost all of the starters range between decent and phenomenal, so I will be comparing them to each other, not to other Pokémon. I will also be judging them based on how they would perform in a regular playthrough. So there will be no access to egg moves, optimal IV's etc., and Pokémon will carry a similar moveset and EV spread throughout, rather than the player training an optimized team for every single important fight, like you would in a challenge run with debug. Pokémon Reborn is also balanced in a unique way compared to other Pokémon games. The offensive teams and field effects create a very offensive and volatile environment that benefits some Pokémon more than others. I will only be considering the "important" battles in the game (Gym Leaders, Meteor Admins, PULSE's, Rivals etc.), and only battles that are currently in the game. I will not be considering E19 battles, with the exception of Saphira. While we don't quite know what her team looks like, the nature of Dragon's Den gives us a fairly clear idea of what will be good there and what won't. 
I will also be considering the oppurtunity cost. If there are other Pokémon that can do the same thing as a starter with similar or higher levels of success, that will impact the value you would actually get from using that starter. 

With that said, here is the list of starters. I will be going from highest to lowest, so you will be seeing the best option first. 

S+ Tier
I had to make a separate tier for Blaziken. While the other S tier starters are very good, no other Pokémon has the ability to solo the majority of the game in the same way.

 

Torchic
There is really not a lot to say about Blaziken. Speed Boost is one of the best abilities in the game, especially combined with a Pokémon that gets access to Bulk Up by the time you battle Corey. It gets access to very strong STAB options once you get access to the move relearner, and some solid coverage options through TM's and Move Tutors. Blaziken is capable of sweeping a lot, if not the majority, of important battles in Reborn, and can do some solid damage to the rest.

S Tier
Starters in S tier are incredible throughout the entire game, without taking too long to become useful, or falling off towards the end of the game, and will carry teams throughout entire playthroughs.

Froakie
Greninja's amazing speed comes in very handy against the many offensive threats in Reborn, but the main reason for it's power is obviously Protean. While it can't make great use of it early game, once you reach the mid-late game stages, you unlock more tutors, TM's and level up moves that makes it one of the most versatile Pokémon in the game. Along with its many great support options such as Spikes and Mat Block, Greninja and is able to put in good work in any situation you put it in. 

Chimchar
Similarly to Greninja, the combination of good speed, offense and coverage options is very valuable in a game like Reborn. While it can't quite match Greninja's versatility, or Blaziken's sweeping potential, Infernape has early access to very powerful STAB moves and priority paired with a fantastic offensive typing, making it one of the best revenge killers in the game. 

A Tier
Starters in A tier aren't quite as versatile as those in S tier, but still fill an important role on a team, and generally perform that role better than its competitors, making them invaluable and hard to replace.

Popplio
This might be surprisingly high up on the list for some. However, Primarina has the single highest natural offensive stat out of all the starters, along with adequate bulk and one of the best typings in the game, both defensively and offensively. Water/Fairy allows Primarina to matchup well into the majority of gyms outside of the early game, as well as the many Rock and Ground types in Team Meteor. It gets access to very powerful STAB moves in Moonblast and Sparkling Aria relatively early on, as well as Encore, one of the best support moves in the game. The combination of Liquid Voice and Hyper Voice is also very useful against many of the double battles in the game. It is also noteworthy that Primarina might be one of the best answers to Saphira in E19, as it is not only immune to Dragon, but also deals with Fire and Steel type attacks better than other Fairy types would.

Cyndaquil
Typhlosion is known for doing one thing: fast Eruptions. And that is something it does very well. Through the move relearner, Eruption can be learned before the player even battles Aya, which is ridiculously powerful for this point in the game. It also has the ability to set several battle fields on fire, further powering up it's Fire-type attacks by 2.25x, and access to Flash Fire allows you to fight fire with fire against Charlotte. While Typhlosion is still rendered useless in some fights, it's normally sub-par versatility is compensated heavily by it's access to Nature Power.

Snivy
Serperior is another one-trick pony. While it isn't terrible early on, with natural access to Nature Power, Leech Seed, Coil and Giga Drain, what lands Serperior such a high spot on the list is the ability to spam Contrary Leaf Storms. While it becomes available quite late, around the time you fight Luna, once you actually reach that point, Serperior is one of the best Pokémon in the game, being able to sweep or dent several teams in the Reborn mid-late game. It is also one of the fastest starters available, which is always important.

B Tier
Pokémon in B tier are solid Pokémon that fulfill a unique function, but are held back in one way or another that prevents them from carrying teams like the Pokémon above can.

Mudkip
With the highest Base Stat Total out of all the starters, and one of the best defensive typings in the game, Swampert is known to be one of the most well-rounded Pokémon there is. Swampert has natural access to Earthquake, which is more than some Ground types can manage, as well as Water-type STAB, coverage options such as Rock Slide and Sludge Wave, and learning Protect by level-up, which is phenomenal. Although it's Mega Evolution is not available as of now, it will definetely be a strong sweeping option on Rain teams in the late game. While Swampert fills the role of a bulky mixed attacker very well, it is a lot easier to replace than the A tier starters, which is why it lands at the top of B tier instead.
 

DISCLAIMER: If you have played VGC in the past few years, I recommend that you avert your eyes from this section.
Litten
When playing against an AI, Intimidate may very well be the very best Ability in the game, especially in the many Double Battles of Reborn. Incineroar happens to one of the best users of this Ability, with it's good Attack and Defenses, and Fire/Dark granting a very unique set of resistances. While it's potential as a support Pokémon is crippled by moves like Fake Out, Parting Shot and U-Turn being unavailable in one way or another, Incineroar's good natural bulk, attack, early access to Bulk up, and Torracat being surprisingly strong early game still makes Litten one of the better choices in the game.

Fennekin
While Delphox may not seem too special, it is very useful in Reborn. It is faster than Charizard and Typhlosion, and gets access to strong dual STAB by the time you fight Shade. While this doesn't fulfill much of a niche on it's own, Delphox's Psychic typing gives it access to lots of good utility options as well, such as Switcheroo, Reflect, Light Screen, Trick Room, Magic Coat and Snatch. Delphox also benefits from Mystical Fire and Magician being heavily buffed on several fields throughout the game.

Piplup
The Piplup line is very mediocre in almost every way. A generic learnset, mediocre abilities, decent bulk and Special Attack, but nothing too special. However, the Steel type is so incredibly strong that it is enough to boost Empoleon up 2-3 tiers, since it has a whopping 11 resistances and immunities, while only having 3 weaknesses. It is held back by the fact that it can't learn Flash Cannon without a TM, which only becomes available after beating Titania, but simply being the only Water/Steel type in the game is enough to make Piplup an above-average starter.

C Tier
C tier makes a lot of these Pokémon sound a lot worse than they actually are. This tier is the middle of the pack. The Pokémon here are still strong, but can't quite compete in the higher tiers, or simply don't fill enough of a niche to be worth picking. 

Charmander
The Charmander line is identical to the Cyndaquil line in terms of stats. And while Charizard gets access to decently powerful moves early on, missing out on Eruption, Nature Power and Flash Fire cripples Charizard's ability to be a fast nuke like Typhlosion. Charizard still gets access to some very good moves though, and alongside it's decent Special Attack and Speed, still allows it to be a good attacker. However, it is still outclassed at that by Talonflame, which is available before Corey, is faster and gets access to priority Acrobatics and Tailwind. While early Dragon Rage might seem really good, Reborn's high level curve means it will fall off a lot faster than in vanilla games, and isn't really useful after Florinia. Charizard's biggest redeeming factor is it's Mega Evolutions. It's X form is strong, although Dragon Dance is an egg move and the Charizardite X is available very late, and the Charizardite Y is not available at all as of now.

Treecko
While being pure Grass does very little for this line, the incredible speed, very early access to Leaf Blade, good coverage and Unburden make Grovyle and Sceptile good sweepers/revenge killers. While they lack the power of other sweeping mons, and are limited by the late access to Swords Dance, the fact that almost all fast Grass types are very defensive gives Sceptile a comfortable niche. Mega Sceptile is also the fastest Dragon type in the game, which will be extremely useful against Saphira.
 

Bulbasaur
The Bulbasaur line has access to a lot of good utility, including Leech Seed, status-inducing moves and recovery. This is always a useful Pokémon to have, but the main thing holding this line back is how many other Pokémon, most notably Budew, can completely replace or even outshine it. The Mega Evolution is nice, even if it is available really late, and is extremely strong against Amaria specifically.
 

Rowlet
While Decidueye is held back by it's poor stat distribution and limited access to Swords Dance, it still fulfills a unique role, since the only other Grass/Ghost type is extremely slow. Spirit Shackle gives Decidueye access to consistent, strong physical Ghost STAB, which puts it above most other physical Ghost types. STAB Priority is also very useful to revenge kill with, and early access to reliable recovery as well as passable bulk allows Decidueye to take out some bulkier opponents. 

Tepig
Emboar hits incredibly hard, with access to strong STAB attacks and coverage moves that are boosted by Reckless. But that is about the extent to which this line is useful. It is too slow and not bulky enough to survive for very long, and is heavily outclassed by the other Fire/Fightings. A straight-forward heavy-hitter is always useful, though.

Turtwig
Similarly to the Bulbasaur line, the Tepig line gets access to a lot of good utility such as Leech Seed and Synthesis. Torterra also has the advantage of a unique typing, as well as learing Earthquake extremely early. However, it doesn't hit quite as hard as it feels like it should, and doesn't offer nearly as useful resistances as other Grass types, and its weaknesses to common types makes its low speed easy to exploit, and prevents it from being a great defensive wall.

D Tier
Pokémon in D tier aren't bad, but don't fulfill much of a niche over other similar Pokémon.

Chespin
Chesnaught has decent defensive stats, and a decent defensive Ability, but is held back heavily by having a terrible defensive typing. While it is too slow to utilise its offensive tools, it has access to some very good support options, most importantly Leech Seed+Spiky Shield. It is still quite vulnerable, but it's movepool is enough to place it at the top of this tier.

Oshawott
Considering it's mediocre stat distribution and abilities, I initially thought Samurott had nothing going for it over the other pure Water types. However, it gets access to Swords Dance by level up, which automatically puts it above everything else in this tier. While it has access to Aqua Jet, it's still slightly too slow and weak to properly sweep, but it still poses a bit of a threat.

Totodile
Sheer Force is a great Ability. However, without easy access to Dragon Dance, Feraligatr doesn't make great use of it. It is an alright, basic Water type that hits pretty hard once it actually gets access to good Water-type attacks, but is very mediocre across the board.

Squirtle
Very similar to Totodile, except it is more defensive and with a worse Ability. Blastoise doesn't do much that most Water types can't, and is unfortunately very redundant because of it. While it's Mega Evolution makes it better, it is still worse than most other Megas, and is also available too late into the game to really help it.

F Tier
Meganium

Chikorita
There really isn't much to say. Pure Grass was already bad on Serperior and Sceptile, but Meganium doesn't have any tools to compensate at all. It gets access to the same support options as most Grass types, but it doesn't really do anything beyond that.


So that is my ranking! If you have any thoughts or critisisms, I would love to hear them!

!well your wrong about totodile with sheer force that can be very useful with a life orb  and a great move list

1 dragon dance / sword stance could work too but not as well 

2 waterfall

3 ice punch

4 superpower/ aqua jet/ crunch 

any of those moves can make a great stratagey  and also it can help out as a sweeper but it can also set up other pokemon on your team