Two sweepers for one spot! [X/Y in-game competitive team]

[Tomas Elliot]

So, I have a problem here. The two guys you see in the picture are to of my favorite Pokemon overall. And they both appeal a lot to me as physical sweepers this generation, for a number of reasons.

Bisharp is a Pokemon that takes a lot of prediction, and that alone makes it stand up in what is most likely going to be a format of either mindless attacking or full stalling. Its standard set of Substitute/Swords Dance/Sucker Punch/Iron Head has great coverage this generation given that Steel doesn't resist Dark anymore, and this, if you don't misplay, allows you to keep at bay common threats like Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Magnezone (particularly the choiced variants) and many others. All it takes to work is the right prediction, to set up a substitute at the right time and then bring the pain with the deadly Sucker Punch, supported by a very reliable secondary STAB like Iron Head. Its Defiant ability is going to be fantastic this generation, given that Intimidate is seeing a lot more use (Gyarados now prefers it in order to mega evolve, Mega Manectric has it, and Mawile carries it when it switches in before mega evolving...), and above all given that there is this new entry hazard named Sticky Web, which people use to reduce the Speed stat of opposing Pokemon on the switch: since Bisharp doesn't need speed to be effective, if my foes use Sticky Web on me it will basically turn in a free Swords Dance on the switch.

On the other hand, Scolipede is more of a pure sweeper: its base Attack was increased to 100, and thanks to its great base Speed and its brand new Speed Boost ability it can afford being Adamant. If you can switch into something that cannot touch you (Florges comes to mind) and you manage to use Swords Dance on the opponent's switch, then your opponent will have hug troubles dealing with the big insect because, between the mighty STAB moves it gets (Poison Jab that threatens them Fairies and above all the mighty Megahorn) and the fantastic coverage it has access to (Earthquake on top of many other options), a very few Pokemon can take on Scolipede one on one after Speed Boost has started to kick in, specially if its main threats have been previously worn down by the rest of the team. I've seen people around trying to use Scolipede as a baton passer, and I sincerely find that to be a huge waste: with the right support Scolipede can sweep on its own!

Please note that this is planned to be an in-game team, and that I alreade have in my possession the perfect "ingredients" to breed myself both a Sucker Punch Defiant Bisharp and a Speed Boost Scolipede, so yeah, it is not a matter of availability, it is a mere matter of picking one.

Here is a quick RMT of the team in which the physical sweeper of choice is supposed to fit in: I have tested both in this team and, while going with either means of course that I need to adjust my playstyle accordingly, I have noticed that no change in the line-up of the team is required. The following Pokemon can easily build up a strategy that will eventually allow a final sweep by Bisharp and Scolipede alike. Please notice that the malfunctioning sprites are Greninja and Goodra, in this order.

@ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Spikes

@ Tyrannitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch

@ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt

@ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Protect
- Wish

@ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Disable
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute

I am not including an in-depth description of the reasons that brought me to go with these sets because this post is already getting insanely long, however I will provide further explaination if required. However, just to be respectful of the rules of this sub-forum, I will include an importable, even if, since this is supposed to be an in-game team, it wouldn't be that necessary either.

And this being said, enough of me talking: let's hear the opinions of our community!

Greninja (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Spikes

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Protect
- Wish

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Disable
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute

[Sapphire]

On account of not having seen a Bisharp...ever...in 6th Gen yet, and having seen lots of centipedes, I say go with the wurm. Also, Mega Mawile is simply so much better than Bisharp. She can do everything he does but...Better. And has better typing.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Secundum

[Tomas Elliot]

Except that +1 Iron Head (and Bisharp will ALWAYS be at +1 if Mawile switches into it, because Defiant reverses Intimidate) will do around 70% to Mawile, which therefore will have to be war of Sucker Punch, specially if hazards are up, and thus, given that a Mega has no recovery, with the right prediction it will be easy for Bisharp to keep Mawile at bay!

I never said that Bisharp does Mawile's job (it doesn't, btw) nor that it does it better than Mawile (which would be even more stupid to say)... I simply said that Bisharp can keep Mawile at bay!

EDIT: two more people have voted, one for Bisharp and one for Scolipede... And neither posted here to justify their opinion! Seriously people, I am more interested in reading your opinion, rather than merely counting your votes... Do post to explain your choice like Secundum did!

Edited November 17, 2013 by Tomas Elliot

[T-Raz]

I actually used Bisharp in Gen.5 in one of my teams. Lets see, I had:

Bisharp (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Defiant

EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Swords Dance

- Sucker Punch

- Stone Edge

- Brick Break

That was back in Gen.5. I actually really like Bisharp & even though he's overshadowed by other Pokemon I just couldn't help but use him. I've actually never used Scolipede before, either in story or competitive play so I don't have an opinion on him sadly.@_@ I'm kinda sad that he doesn't have a Mega.....I'm currently trying to get a great Bisharp with Sucker Punch as well in Gen.6.

[Tomas Elliot]

The set I have tested for Bisharp is 252 HP 252 Atk 4 Def Adamant, Leftovers, Substitute, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch and Iron Head!

It is very unique in playstyle, this is why I like it... As I said in the OP, Bisharp is a Sucker Punch abuser and a prediction-heavy attacker, while Scolipede is more of a straightforward physical sweeper!

The set for the latter would be 252 Atk 252 Spd 4 HP Adamant, Life Orb, Swords Dance, Megahorn, Poison Jab (or Rock Slide) and Earthquake!

[Sapphire]

Bisharp could beat Mawile yes, but that doesn't mean he's better. Lapras could beat Garchomp. Doesn't mean Lapras is better.

[Tomas Elliot]

Bisharp could beat Mawile yes, but that doesn't mean he's better. Lapras could beat Garchomp. Doesn't mean Lapras is better.

I never said that Bisharp does Mawile's job (it doesn't, btw) nor that it does it better than Mawile (which would be even more stupid to say)... I simply said that Bisharp can keep Mawile at bay!

...

[Joker]

I say go with Scolipede. I'm not too sure about having both of your sweepers be Poison types(assuming Gengar is your special sweeper, which seems most likely)... but Bisharp would just add another Fighting weakness, and you never want to be overly weak to a certain type. If you're dead set on only those two options, Scolipede seems like the best bet imo.

[Summer]

Go with Bisharp!

Frankly, Scolipede may look very promising due to it's easy set-up and all, but it also dies really, really fast. SRocks + Priority kills it, especially when you see Gale Wings Talonflame and Sucker Punch Mega Mawile dancing about. The only reason why you'll use Scolipede is as lead, and even so you'll be more likely to see Talonflame taking the front too.

Bisharp, on the other hand, it's just <333333333. It does the physical job of Togekiss -tanking physical hits. Stupid Iron Head Mawiles can't do a thing to sub. Although, bringing it in the field DOES take some thinking, but if you're confident, it shouldn't be a problem.

On a side note, why would you have Crunch and Pursuit together on one Tyranitar? Why not just throw Crunch for something harder?

[Fezzdog]

Bisharp was one of my favourite sweepers in BW UU, but over time I came to realise his sweeps were way too unreliable for me. I used your build except I replaced Iron Head with Brick Break. Sucker Punch shenigans never really worked for me and it was my stall cores which did most of the work in the end. I doubt anyone would switch in a Mawile onto a Bisharp anyways when there's so many other options.

[Tomas Elliot]

Go with Bisharp!

Frankly, Scolipede may look very promising due to it's easy set-up and all, but it also dies really, really fast. SRocks + Priority kills it, especially when you see Gale Wings Talonflame and Sucker Punch Mega Mawile dancing about. The only reason why you'll use Scolipede is as lead, and even so you'll be more likely to see Talonflame taking the front too.

Bisharp, on the other hand, it's just <333333333. It does the physical job of Togekiss -tanking physical hits. Stupid Iron Head Mawiles can't do a thing to sub. Although, bringing it in the field DOES take some thinking, but if you're confident, it shouldn't be a problem.

On a side note, why would you have Crunch and Pursuit together on one Tyranitar? why not just throw Crunch for something harder?

Because Crunch+Stone Edge are to hit hard with STABs, while Pursuit is there specifically to make sure that Talonflame is not a threat to Scolipede like you said! You see, Talonflame loses 50% health to Stealth Rock and has no way, absolutely no way, of hurting Ttar. This means that switching Ttar into Talonflame will force switches, and Pursuit will finish the job. I actually end up using Pursuit more than any other move once Rocks are up: basically, this is the good old CB Set that has traded EQ for SR, and extra power for eaxtra bulk and the ability to change moves...

Bisharp was one of my favourite sweepers in BW UU, but over time I came to realise his sweeps were way too unreliable for me. I used your build except I replaced Iron Head with Brick Break. Sucker Punch shenigans never really worked for me and it was my stall cores which did most of the work in the end. I doubt anyone would switch in a Mawile onto a Bisharp anyways when there's so many other options.

Bisharp actually brought me to position #7 on PO beta server's UU ladder, back in the days... But nostalgia aside, I would like to point out one thing: this team includes a lot of bulky and/or purely defensive Pokemon, with Wish support, entry hazards and phazing capabilities. So yeah, talking about counters that can stop a sweep from either Bisharp or Scolipede is not an argument, in these days of team preview: once I see the opponents have, in their team, a Pokemon capable of stopping my sweeper in its tracks, all I'll need to do will be to wear it down with the rest of the team, before the sweeper can come out to pick the bones... These are actually the basics of setting up a sweep!

This being said, I would like to take a moment to thank all those who shared their opinions: I see the poll is getting decent attention, Scolipede appears to have a small lead, and there have been some valid points made in some of the posts in this topic. So yeah, thank you guys once again, I hope this discussion can proceed further!

[Sapphire]

...

So...You're taking Bisharp over Mawile, even though Mawiles better, simply to defeat Mawiles with Bisharp?

[Tomas Elliot]

So...You're taking Bisharp over Mawile, even though Mawiles better, simply to defeat Mawiles with Bisharp?

So you are picking Cristiano Ronaldo over Victor Valdes, because Ronaldo can score a goal to Valdes? That is exactly the question you are asking: Bisharp and Mawile DO NOT do the same job, and therefore comparing them makes no sense, just like comparing a striker and a goalkeeper just because they are both footballers. Bisharp and Mawile have completely different playstyles (NO, the fact that they both have Sucker Punch DOES NOT mean that they are alike) and they deal with completely different threats; the reason why I am not running Mawile is that I already have other options to deal with the threats it would deal with, and the fact that I stated that, among the threats Bisharp can keep at bay, there is also Mawile itself DOES NOT mean that I consider Bisharp to be "better" than Mawile, simply because, to say that someone or something is better than someone or something else, you need to specify AT WHAT it is better, and in this case there is no "what" to be better at, because Bisharp and Mawile serve different purposes, have different playstyles and deal with different threats. In short, they do different jobs.

I considered Bisharp and not Mawile as an option for this team simply because Bisharp deals with threats the rest of my team cannot deal with (most notably Mawile itself), while Mawile, in order to add something more to the team, would require a kind of support that this team CAN NOT provide. In even easier terms, Bisharp (and Scolipede for that matters) can easily fit in this team, Mawile can't.

The whole comparison thing is something that was started by you, not me, and quite frankly it makes little to no sense because, once again, Bisharp and Mawile do different jobs. It's like arguing over who is more important for the human society between an engineer and a plumber.

Counting this post, this is the third time I repeat this point: have I been clear enough this time?

EDIT: not to mention the fact that Mawile, in order to be effective, needs to Mega Evolve, and I already have a Mega in Tyranitar, so yeah, this whole quarrell makes even less sense...

Edited November 18, 2013 by Tomas Elliot

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I say Bisharp! Long live Dark types! (but mostly because I love me some mindgames, it is more fun then straightforward stuff).

[The Radiant Aeon]

Idk really. I chose Scoliopede though just because of the type synergy. Even with Gengar, one fight immunity doesn't REALLY covers them, where as Scolio also has a free switch in from mach punch, use SD or Protect, then sweep afterwords.

[Khayoz]

Sorry Tomas, I'm going with Scolipede on this one I prefer the easy way out haha

Edited November 18, 2013 by Khayoz

[Tomas Elliot]

Sorry Tomas, I'm going with Scolipede on this one I prefer the easy way out haha

...Ok? Exactly why are you apologizing? That's a respectable opinion O.o

[Requieon]

Scoli. And lol at the tags.

[JayDo]

I voted for scolipede, even though I think it works better as a boton passer than a sweeper. I just don't like Bisharp's 4x fighting weakness when mega Blaziken and power up punch mega kangaskhan are both so popular. Already having a 4x weak mega tyranitar also doesn't help from a defensive stand point when looking at this team.

[Tomas Elliot]

Well, to be honest Blaziken is already uber (even if such tiers do not exist in-game, so I see your point), and Sub-disable Gengar easily dispatches of Mega Kangaskan... Switch into Power-up Punch, Sub on their Sucker Punch attempt, use Disable, laugh...

[SJMistery]

Well, to be honest Blaziken is already uber (even if such tiers do not exist in-game, so I see your point), and Sub-disable Gengar easily dispatches of Mega Kangaskan... Switch into Power-up Punch, Sub on their Sucker Punch attempt, use Disable, laugh...

Protect is more reliable to prevent a Crunch in this situation...

Scolipede can not only sweep, but help the team with Baton Pass, so it's actually better. I'm pretty sure that MegaTyranitar will enjoy having a courple of boosts under his belt.

Additionally, his poison-bug typing provides a nice x4 resistance to fighting moves, and considering fighting pokémon can severely dent your team (everything neutral or weak bar Gengar who is incredibly frail), and that bisharp even INCREASES that fighting weakness, Scolipede wins by a large amount.