Madame X identity speculations, "Here we go again" edition (13.5)

[Cyphre]

So i've already made a topic about it couple years ago, but in the light of some rewrites, additional information and all that, let's try to figure it out again. Also with this topic people won't need to reread previous one in it's entirety. With new information from 13.5 the rabbit hole goes deeper than ever. Overall the topic is intended as more of a collection of information and place of discussion rather than a definitive answer, so i welcome any corrections, extra points and theories. Now that we know for a fact that it's not only about time travel, but parallel worlds even moreso the actual game versions are canon this becomes a hole deeper than ever before. 

 

 

 

Candidate #1: Maria/Marianette/whatever version of her

 

This is the basic boring theory that went around for as long as Madame X existed, but it got some merits for sure. There are a lot of things that work for it, but some critical things also work against it. 

 

Why it can be her:

1) Her appearance. In the Ecclysia Pyramid we broke her mask and saw that she had black hair. It is the Archetype that gives all siblings golden hair colour, but natural hair colour of her mother, Anathea, is black as well, which lines up.

2) Strongest point for this theory comes In 13.5 where we learned that Nastasia entered Team Xen to "find her friend". and Ren was able to speak to said friend although this friend denied everything. This piece of new information heavily implies that Madame X is Maria and Nastasia knows it very well, as we know they were best friends. And implied "finding her friend" is something more akin to bringing old Maria back. 

3) Melanie (a version of Melia) also called some "Father" for help and received a proper Yveltal nuke, similar to how Madame X uses Yveltal which implies connection between the two. 

4) Madame X calls her "mother" in quotation marks, implying either that she wasnt biological or extreme disdain for her. Considering how Archetype children come to be it's fair to say she could consider Anathea not her real mother. And her mother dying to protect her would line up with Anathea dying in the mansion. 

5) Madame X hates people being confined, which could be tied to Marianette and her living in mansion-prison. 

Why it's unlikely to be her:

1) The whole bit about "Father, i have lost..." makes no sense in the context (it's sitll in 13.5, yes). If you assume mentioned father is Vitus, she has no reason to say that considering the relashionship of any Maria/Marianette version with Vitus was... pretty shit, and there are no other candidates really. 

2) However if you think about Anathea as Maria/Marianette's mother, Madame X's extreme animocity towards her mother make no sense whatsoever. In all versions Anathea was shown to be nothing but loving and caring towards Maria/Marianette and was always on her side, and Maria/Marianette answered with love as well. 

 

 

 

Candidate #2: Erinea

 

Erin as a theory only came to existense in v13, but had some strong arguments going for it. That said, like with #1, there are some extremely critical things that make no sense if Erin would actually be Madame X. 

 

Why it can be her:

1) Once again appearance AND the point about mother. See #1. 

2) In new 13.5 Darchlight sequence we have seen that Erin shows extreme physical prowess, well outside of what others are capable of. Is this limited to Darchlight cave or not is unknown, but Madame X is similarly extremely strong. 

3) Strongest point for Erin being Madame X is, of course, infamousely repeated words of Erin in the flashback and Madame X in the prologue word for word. Which more or less created this theory to begin with.

4) It's more of a general observation but Madame X and Erin has the most similar way of interacting with other people, in mostly cold and smartass manner. 

 

Why it's unlikely to be her:

 

1) Erin hates and despise Vitus, anything "Father" related makes no sense assuming she talks about him. No other candidates so far.

2) I'm fairly sure Erin isn't even aware how Anathea died since by this time she was in her prison with Allen and Alice, so her saying her "mother" died to protect her makes no sense. 

3) Madame X spoke about Erin in third person. While it could be a calculated effort to conceal her identity, i don't think she would even bother.

 

 

Candidate #3: Nora Royer

 

This is the most interesting theory, but it also heavily relies on certain assumptions that were not really mentioned in game or explained yet. 

 

Why it can be her:

 

1) This is the most direct case of Taelia dying to protect her in Where love lies, and "mother" being in quotation marks can be explained by her knowledge about Maiden of Reincarnation. This is also the only theory where "Father, i have lost..." make sense, considering she loved and respected Kenneth. 

2) We never directly saw Nora die, only her getting encased in stone. Combined this with 2 times (it's not much, but weird that it happened twice) game mentioned her in important colour can only mean she holds some significance still. 

3) This is a very "meta" argument but now that we know that every version is a new attempt to bring the entire thing closer to a "perfect ending" by either Karma or god knows what else, i want to point out that initially "Where love lies" was called "Version -1", in theory predating even beginning of Rejuvenation cycles on a meta timeline. 

4) I will quote here a thing about Vitus, "Yveltal is how he spies, how he knows". Yveltal was present there when Taelia and Nora died, what significance did they hold for him at the time? Yveltal carried Soul stone on it in our Blacksteeple encounter, it is possible he took Nora's soul inside of it in WLL. 

 

Why it's unlikely to be her:

 

1) Appearance doesn't really match with what we saw in Ecclysia Pyramid. In WLL little Nora had purple hair like her mother. 

2) Nastasia and Nora lived in different times and while its certain Nastasia engaged in some time travel and Sheridan was close, it is unlikely they would become friends. Again this is only assuming "friend" she is talking about is Madame X. 

 

 

Candidate #4: Garufan Inc. member 

 

Okay this will be a more disjointed thing since this can only be told as a full story, but this is another can of worms 13.5 opens. In 13.5 Maman was HEAVILY rewritten and she told us about 2 stupidly importan pieces of lore which change a lot of things. From karma files we know that Garufans fought Arceus, 7 billion died and in the aftermath of Arceus destruction they started pretty much dissapearing and deteriorating, and that led to Variya making her project and Garufan civilization dropping below ground. 

 

Maman told us that very slightly important thing that there is fully functioning Garufan tribe just chilling somewhere underground and this is where she came from. It's been no more than 10 years since she came above ground based on circumstantial things, so in that short timespan this Garufan tribe couldn't die out, they are just chilling somewhere underground. Second extremely important thing is the "Light plague", an illness that killed Maman and killing Franchesca. Any garufan that is subjected to above ground will immediately develop "Light plague" which inevitably will start killing the host, and i think it's fairly obvious that this is what started killing Garufans after the whole Arceus shebang. 

 

Now i'm willing to remind you that a bit under Sheridan we can find a machine that makes a copy of Madame X armor, so with this new piece of knowledge it's a plausible theory that Madame X was a garufan woman, and this armor was constructed to counteract the "Light plague". It's highly unlikely she is Variya, so it doesn't help us much, but this connects some dots for sure. 

 

 

Candidate #5: First Human/Queen of Aevium

 

While before there were heavy implications that Vitus and Nymiera were first humans from legend about Arceus, we also learned that Nymiera and Vitus are pretty much constructs. Correct me if i'm wrong but i also remember hearing in Zeight that a lot of stuff predated Nymiera, which also throws her age off. In the legend pokemon became weaker, and humans received supernatural strenght and agility. As a sign of humiliation first male also gifted first woman his sword, and Madame X seems to favor the sword quite a lot. However in this case any "mother" and "father" mentions are kinda moot, even if you consider Arceus a mother or a father. 

 

Another thing that was slightly retconned is that now there was a Queen that ruled all 7 kingdoms of Aevium at some point. Which i'm gonna throw out as a possibility here.

 

Some interesting points i'm not sure where to leave:

 

Madame X warned Kanon about Theolia monthes before the thing happened. This still confuses me. 

Madame X hates to see people confined. 

Madame X said to Melanie "no more hiding behind that beast" about Yveltal which can be just a random remark but seemed quite... rude i suppose to kind of eyes of Vitus. 

 

 

 

This is not a definitive statement, it's an opener, so feel free to add, discuss and present other theories. Most incredibly flaky ones like Madame X being Nastasia, Amber, or Anathea are extremely unlikely so i didn't even bother. I will also try to add important points if they arise. 

[SoulN7]

To be honest, I think 1# and 2# are the best ones, especially 1# because, at some point, I thought Madame X could be a "part" of Maria/Melia who pretty much "splitted" from her original self and for this, Melia's Archetype is incomplete and she suffers Genesis Syndrome. I found very unlikely her not getting control about the Archetype because "she doesn't want to be Maria". After all, we literally have new versions of Melia now. Plus, I'm not sure how do we have to consider the whole prologue, since it's like completely another thing from the Pocket-Dimension in Chapter 3 and past's situation in Chapter 8 and it still is a mystery, today. Now that I think about it, Madame X saved us in the past and she was in a familiar place...a sort of...Zeight.

Spoiler

In Paragon Route, only Melia could access Zeight thanks to Nancy's authorization and since this influenced Renegade Route too, giving access to Zeigh to M2---dunno, it was just a detail I noted.

 

We don't know Madame X's age, but I found to be very impossible for her to be young, so I'm not feeling she could be the famous "Missing.exe".

 

[Nox Omen]

7 hours ago, Cyphre said:

 

Candidate #1: Maria/Marianette/whatever version of her

Why it's unlikely to be her:

1) The whole bit about "Father, i have lost..." makes no sense in the context (it's sitll in 13.5, yes). If you assume mentioned father is Vitus, she has no reason to say that considering the relashionship of any Maria/Marianette version with Vitus was... pretty shit, and there are no other candidates really. 

 

Candidate #2: Erinea

 

Why it's unlikely to be her:

 

1) Erin hates and despise Vitus, anything "Father" related makes no sense assuming she talks about him. No other candidates so far.

 

 

Ok, your other points about why it unlikely is them still stand but I'd like to add something in the case of the first one for Erin and Melia.

 

So, we know that the 4 siblings are a byproduct of Vitus wishing for children with the power of the archetype since he can't produce children himself. That resulted in Anathea giving birth to the 4 siblings but, even tho Vitus was the one who made the wish and they do consider him their father at least before knowing about the archetype pieces in them, Vitus isn't actually related to them in any way by blood. 

That makes the siblings actually the childeren of Anathea and the Archetype... which is what's left of Arceus after creating humans and pokemon. Which makes me think (even tho this is quite the stretch) that if Madame X was either Melia or Erin she would already know this and when she says "Father, I have lost..." she is actually talking to Arceus.

 

But overall great theory! Both your points on why It might or might not be someone make a lot of sense.

[Cyphre]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:20 AM, Nox Omen said:

"Father, I have lost..." she is actually talking to Arceus.

Actually it's unlikely, albeit possible. The known piece of Arceus is Adrest, and golden light is Variya, who is a mother if nothing else and presumably not on the side of Madame X. There is a possibility she is talking about the mecha-arceus Variya made as the core of the system but it's a massive stretch too for now. 

[Nox Omen]

1 minute ago, Cyphre said:

Actually it's unlikely, albeit possible. The known piece of Arceus is Adrest, and golden light is Variya, who is a mother if nothing else and presumably not on the side of Madame X. There is a possibility she is talking about the mecha-arceus Variya made as the core of the system but it's a massive stretch too for now. 

 

Yeah, mb. I didn't know about Adrest being a piece of Arceus and Variya the golden light because I haven't finished the story of V13.5 since I started a new savefile and haven't had the time to finish it yet. I was only talking based on what I already knew from V13

[SoulN7]

2 minutes ago, Nox Omen said:

 

Yeah, mb. I didn't know about Adrest being a piece of Arceus and Variya the golden light because I haven't finished the story of V13.5 since I started a new savefile and haven't had the time to finish it yet. I was only talking based on what I already knew from V13

I think you should start, you'll be missing a lot of context, especially on the whole theories players are doing. Obliviously, take your time. And unlike me, take some notes for important bits of lore (and I was stupid to not do that).

[Nox Omen]

3 minutes ago, SoulN7 said:

I think you should start, you'll be missing a lot of context, especially on the whole theories players are doing. Obliviously, take your time. And unlike me, take some notes for important bits of lore (and I was stupid to not do that).

 

I will still take a some time to get through my new save file since I only arived at the Terrial island now so i might actually go back to one of my old save files. Thanks for the suggestions!

[comcart]

not very related, but I think it's really funny how we basically have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in Arceus, Adrest, and Variya. Would that make the Interceptor Jesus? Or is that Melia? I mean.... She did "die" in Amethyst Cave, and come back from the "dead" three chapters later!! Seriously though, the whole split into three thing screams Jesus myth XDD. On topic though, I genuinely have no idea who Madame X could be. Honestly, after a bit of replaying, if I had to choose a version of Melia to make Madame X, I'd go Marianette. There are definitely a bunch of points that could debunk this, but it's my wild card theory. Not expecting it to be right, just... Takin a swing. I mean... She does DO something to Vitus after she sends our spirit away after all, so maybe that became her Yveltal? IDK, part of me really hopes it's someone else, like Nora, or a secret underground Garufan or whatever ((also, can I just say, I'm really starting to just go "huh? okay ig." to all the "there are ancient garufans, and futuristic garufans who came BEFORE us because the world is recycled!! so they have both their ancient futuristic tech!!" bc,,, at this point,,, I just can't man.)), just because this whole Melia/Maria/Marianette thing seems... Too confusing. Like, the Maria in the prologue apparently having a dream, and waking up as Marianette, and then being sacrificed? But then later we find a Marianette, who seems to have some memory of being Melia/Maria maybe...?? She does give us a gym badge, that turns into a key for something, wish I could remember fr. And THEN, we figure out that Erin, Alice, and Allen all come from Vitus and Anathea, but apparently Melia does NOT... Which, I'm pretty sure that's explained somewhere why she's not, but I also sort of forgot if Maria gets sealed in that Unown Dimension with the rest of her siblings... Because, I mean, if not, that Maria probably becomes Marianette or something. This family tree is stupid honestly... And while I hope, if it's revealed that Madame X IS some variant of those kids, that they EXPLAIN this dimensional nonsense -- which has been made TEN times worse by the fact that timelines are now MERGING and being messed up in the latest update, but also the world has been RECYCLED, so?? -- with all the kids, and explain the Maria thing... MADE EVEN W OOOOORRSEEEE by the fact that the HOUSE Maria in the Prologue LIVES IN is REAL, and THERE in our dimension, and has an EXACT spot for her family painting, but APPARENTLY in the world BEFORE, with Crescent, they would visit a lighthouse there or something...?? I don't know, I love this game, but SO many details get muddled, and at this point, I'm hoping the Dev's just throw up a timeline chart and explain to us what's happened to everyone. Anyways, Madame X's real identity is a Ditto now, since that makes about as much sense honestly.

[Mythril]

I am only partway through my new playthrough, so my memory may be foggy on the later revelations, but I think it is possible that Madam X is another incarnation of the INTERCEPTOR. Not only does she show superhuman abilities beyond what Ren is capable of after his makeover, but she breaks the fourth wall in talking directly to the player in the form of the MC, saying how many times she has had to save them and how many times she has had to change her plans because of the MC. Sharon straight up tells us that when you join team Xen, you are branded with an X and carry a green jewel, and when you are "deactivated" you die. And the Xen member in the Sheridan ruins didn't fall over with a heart attack or something, he straight up vanished. That sounds an awfully lot like the effect of a Time-Spinner to me. 

So Team Xen is made up of people who should have died already (Perhaps in a separate timeline), were saved by intervention of Madam X or other Xen members, and are shielded from the consequences of that timeline shift by the effects of the brand and/or jewel. When that jewel is deactivated, they vanish in the current timeline. I can't think of anything other than the INTERCEPTOR that could mess around with the fate of so many people in that way.

[Cyphre]

15 minutes ago, Mythril said:

Madam X is another incarnation of the INTERCEPTOR

She is not. In GDC we have dream sequence with Zetta where he lays out all chess pieces. White got 2 interceptor-type pieces, MC and Crescent, Black got 3 interceptor-type pieces, Clear, Kieran and 1 unknown, but Madame X is a normal chess figure. 

[SoulN7]

I returned here because I just beated Madame X (Wailord + Toxic, poor Yveltal: he likes too much to miss) and after Emma returns to be Melia, Madame X stated that "she deep knew in her bond that Melia couldn't be dead". It seems like Madame X has some sort of connection to Melia, so maybe my theory was not so wrong after all, but I think some of your last candidates could be wrong.

[Cyphre]

I'm fairly certain it's just "i knew she isn't dead" and not "i actually felt it with my mystical powers that actually connect me to her on spiritual level" since she also said "when my admins told me Melia is dead i had no choice but to believe them", which wouldn't be a thing if she had any direct connection to her. So i don't really consider it as an argument for Melia theories. 

[Magus543]

I personally think Madame X is a brainwashed Nymiera just like Angie. 

[SoulN7]

I'm not sure about it...I mean, Nim basically has Nymiera's memories for some reasons...

[Cyphre]

When you talk to Damien in the Route 8 place he also asks if you know who Nim is. If you type in Nymiera he goes all (⚆ᗝ⚆) and you get couple "good" points with him and he asks you where did you heard that name. So i think Nim being Nymiera is beyond reasonable doubt by now. 

[ZenChu]

i have an idea that may strongly support Erinea being Madame X
Since with Maria the whole speech about "father i've lost" is apparently unsensical, what if madame is not referring to her father, but to who she thinks is her father, so the one who actually cared about her and acted as a father. 
What if Erin refers to Souta? She accepted him as a father and in v13.5 we can see that. Maybe Madame X is Erin from another timeline, and she is doing this since she wants to act and overcome the System, i don't remember the actual name of the thing that decides if the world is good or bad and so should prosper or decay.

[Cyphre]

He would very much be grandpa at least, so i don't think this is an argument for Erin. 

[SoulN7]

I remember I had previous thoughts about Madame X being Anathea and the only "reasons" I had to think of it was her never appearing in the present, had black hair and Madame X appearing in the prologue after Anathea was with Vitus, but there are other reasons she could not be her at all, since we know almost nothing. 

[VMeemes]

One of the biggest holes I've always rammed my finger into whenever someone mentions "alt version of Melia/Erin" is that unless she cheats the rules by being from the bad (Renegade) future (which could vey likely be the case for Paragon Melia since that whole paradox time gate exists, but who knows what'll be happening with that) is that as said in the Bad Future arc even Madame X says that two of the same individuals cannot co-exist at the same time. Eventually the universe will give and delete one of them. Back when she had a time diamond I could somewhat buy a theory that she's just so strong that she's overlapping the alternate hers and buying more time that way.

 

It's one of those holes that makes me focus on that and as a result I can't reasonably buy either Melia or Erin being Madame X.

 

While I haven't done the new Maman stuff yet (need a new save for that) I can at least buy the whole "Light plague" thing. Though it does potentially bring up plot holes of why Karrina isn't effected the same way as she too has Garufan blood in her unless that's been retconned.

[Nishtala]

2 hours ago, VMeemes said:

One of the biggest holes I've always rammed my finger into whenever someone mentions "alt version of Melia/Erin" is that unless she cheats the rules by being from the bad (Renegade) future (which could vey likely be the case for Paragon Melia since that whole paradox time gate exists, but who knows what'll be happening with that) is that as said in the Bad Future arc even Madame X says that two of the same individuals cannot co-exist at the same time. Eventually the universe will give and delete one of them. Back when she had a time diamond I could somewhat buy a theory that she's just so strong that she's overlapping the alternate hers and buying more time that way.

 

It's one of those holes that makes me focus on that and as a result I can't reasonably buy either Melia or Erin being Madame X.

 

While I haven't done the new Maman stuff yet (need a new save for that) I can at least buy the whole "Light plague" thing. Though it does potentially bring up plot holes of why Karrina isn't effected the same way as she too has Garufan blood in her unless that's been retconned.

 

I do think that IF Madame X is a version of Melia/Erin, the coexisting issue is being circumvented by her suit. As seen in the Pyramid if Sakitron breaks her helmet, she implies she has to wear it ("if not for this confounded suit..." then she fixes up her helmet). Not to mention the suit material is dug up from Amethyst caves, and I can see the "missing" ingredient being black shards, which has who knows what other properties at this point.

[Green Bean 501]

 

On 11/13/2023 at 1:07 AM, VMeemes said:

One of the biggest holes I've always rammed my finger into whenever someone mentions "alt version of Melia/Erin" is that unless she cheats the rules by being from the bad (Renegade) future (which could vey likely be the case for Paragon Melia since that whole paradox time gate exists, but who knows what'll be happening with that) is that as said in the Bad Future arc even Madame X says that two of the same individuals cannot co-exist at the same time. Eventually the universe will give and delete one of them. Back when she had a time diamond I could somewhat buy a theory that she's just so strong that she's overlapping the alternate hers and buying more time that way.

 

It's one of those holes that makes me focus on that and as a result I can't reasonably buy either Melia or Erin being Madame X.

 

While I haven't done the new Maman stuff yet (need a new save for that) I can at least buy the whole "Light plague" thing. Though it does potentially bring up plot holes of why Karrina isn't effected the same way as she too has Garufan blood in her unless that's been retconned.

 

I think the light plague thing is a reasonable possibility. Perhaps its a leftover effect of the Garufans being from the old world. I noticed that the fading thing that happened after the Garufans killed Arceus looked suspiciously similar to what happened to that one Xen Deathwing in a Neo Gearen sidequest. One reason Madame X wears her suit is probably to prevent the fading/light plague effects. 

[ClaraTheCriminal]

Is it possible that, instead of Melia or Erin, Madame X could be Alice? Or at least, a version of her. It fits with the "Father, I have failed you" aspect, she's been shown to not be entirely trustworthy (at least she has been in V13, but I doubt what happened at the pyramid will happen again here) and she has an affinity with dark types, of which Yveltal is a part of

[Cyphre]

Technically can be, but nothing really supports this. One other trait is Allen got ridiculous speed and Alice got mastery over illusions (which is, funny enough, coincides very well with Kieran and Clear), but nothing suggests Alice is remotely physically capable of lifting anything bigger than a pokeball, Erin however showed inhuman physical prowess. 

[RedTyranitar]

One thing I do wonder is, if the idenity of Madame X has changed over development. Rejuvination has been in a long development for a long time. It's likely  certain narrative decsions have changed over time.