The story's future - just sad ends possible?

[vampirevulpix]

Having just played thru the game on Paragon Route, I gotta say I'm...well, kinda worried?

What I've taken from Erin's files is that basically Karma is an AI that's basically playing in a sandbox and all characters are just toys that can be discarded at will, seeing as Karma can just restart if it does not like things. It cannot control the Interceptor, but it can manipulate them, thus bending them to its will.

Point being, I am super ultra worried right now. Because this spells out two ways things can go (imo):

1) Paragon Route

Karma has controlled MC to do its bidding, creating its perfect world. There is no free will, because Karma has decided it all. Karma refuses to release this world, as to not ruin the perfect blooming world it has created. All characters are alive - but in a fake world without free will.

2) Renegade Route

MC has successfully toppled Karma and fought for Free Will. The perpetual cycle of re-creation of worlds is broken, and for once, a world is allowed to live to its fullest, in all its flaws. Characters died and were used as toys to maintain the old status quo, but those that did surve have free will.

 

And like, maybe I'm just viewing this too damn negative, but either feels like there is no way to win this, as in: having a happy end. Either predetermined yet happy lives - or real yet horrifying lives. Either just feels bad. I'm really kinda worried that things might go this way, because call me childish, but I genuinely do want the Interceptor to have a happy end and to cause a happy end for everyone (...or at least most of them??). I do trust the dev team to continue the story as well-written as it has been so far, don't get me wrong. I just worry that it will be a tragedy (read: sad ends no matter how things go or what we do).

 

Maybe I'm just viewing this too negative or something. But with the stakes being as high as they'd been already (Xen Raid on Terajuma, the Puppet Master, battling Spacea and Tiempa, the looming Xen Raid/Xenpurgis), I'm kinda tense...some optimistic input would be appreciated.

[SoulN7]

Not correctly. The Blooming World means Karma lets The Core dissolve if that World becomes dependant enough and gives humanity free will again. The Interceptor was made to deny Karma's fate and can access to perks to be immune to its control and interventions. Spoilers for Renegade:

 

Spoiler

With a good chance, Renegade MC has started to access these, since Karma had to use Talon and probably Aelita to stop MC.

 

Both MCs have already enough power and knowledge to at least fight the bare minimum against Karma, so I think your "Paragon ending" could not be true at all.

[vampirevulpix]

2 minutes ago, SoulN7 said:

Not correctly. The Blooming World means Karma lets The Core dissolve if that World becomes dependant enough and gives humanity free will again. The Interceptor was made to deny Karma's fate and can access to perks to be immune to its control and interventions. Spoilers for Renegade:

 

  Hide contents

With a good chance, Renegade MC has started to access these, since Karma had to use Talon and probably Aelita to stop MC.

 

Both MCs have already enough power and knowledge to at least fight the bare minimum against Karma, so I think your "Paragon ending" could not be true at all.

I worringly question the whole "Karma lets the Core dissolve" - because what if it doesn't? The AI has been playing (re-)creation of worlds for who-knows-how-long. Variya has programmed certain rules, powers, limitations for Karma to work by - but iirc in Erin's files it does not outright say that one of these rules is "Karma must give humanity free will". Just that it ought to.

What if Karma has developed a will of its own and aims to keep its power, basically turning selfish? Can it even turn againt Variya?

And, if it comes down to it: MC and Melia have basically kicked the epitome of Space and Time in the butt, but really, will they also need to kick the artificial God of the universe (= Karma) in the butt, too? What if they do that, successfully, and afterwards Arceus is like "'sup, so you've passed my trials, thanks for reviving me, now that All Is Well Again(tm) I'll just pop in and create the free will world you've created, don't mind me :D"

...man, I have SO many questions, for real. I just worry that this won't have a happy end - idk, watched/played too much stuff where the creators basically went "your battles were huge but ultimately absolutely useless and everything is miserable and sad!". Like, I care about the characters in Rejuv, and even though I know they're just a bunch of pixels, I want them to have a happy end.

[SoulN7]

There are plenty of questions, it's true, but even Spacea and Tiempa, as many others, possess "imitation powers". And not only that, but Tiempa seems like she respect the Interceptor's will more than she should, so it's oblivious there is something wrong, but I think it's not Karma the problem, but this World Shatterer the game talks about in some occasions and to me, it's Variya, probably she putted certain orders to this duo because she doesn't want to give back humanity free will due to what she experienced in Old Earth and basically ruins Karma's job, but these are just theories.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Spoiler

I don't believe there is a 'false'/Willess world in either outcome nor do I believe Karma is malevolent--thus far. 

Remember the Karma files describe a 'Blooming World' which is when the world learns to self-sustain enough for the core to dissolve and leave the balance to free will. 

 

As I understand it, the ruined world we get a glimpse of in Paragon is the Renegade outcome in which the MC succeeded in their endeavor of destruction. Hence Melia being unable to stand looking at the MC's face despite it no longer being the Player but the original MC because it's the same face of the person who damned her and her friends.

While the ruined world glimpsed in Renegade is the Paragon outcome in which the protagonists lose due to an unidentified 'She' referred to as 'the World Shatterer'. My guess is that this 'world shatterer' is either Madame X or Variya. 

 

Both MCs seem to be connected and to have made an exchange of the red chain (renegade) for the obliteration spell (paragon). 

The renegade MC tells M2: "I gain nothing, they gain everything." The aforementioned supports that the 'they' is their Paragon counterpart. 

 

This is what I got from a particular Youtuber I watch, both his own comments and his commenters (and he did Karma. on both routes). 

To be honest I am struggling to see how this all fits together but at this point perhaps it's not all supposed to fit together since there are a lot of questions that need answering including the renegade MC's motive.

 

I am beginning to wonder if renegade is somehow a necessary evil because it's a means to paragon's success. 

 

[SoulN7]

On 11/29/2023 at 6:54 AM, Lucifer Morningstar said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't believe there is a 'false'/Willess world in either outcome nor do I believe Karma is malevolent--thus far. 

Remember the Karma files describe a 'Blooming World' which is when the world learns to self-sustain enough for the core to dissolve and leave the balance to free will. 

 

As I understand it, the ruined world we get a glimpse of in Paragon is the Renegade outcome in which the MC succeeded in their endeavor of destruction. Hence Melia being unable to stand looking at the MC's face despite it no longer being the Player but the original MC because it's the same face of the person who damned her and her friends.

While the ruined world glimpsed in Renegade is the Paragon outcome in which the protagonists lose due to an unidentified 'She' referred to as 'the World Shatterer'. My guess is that this 'world shatterer' is either Madame X or Variya. 

 

Both MCs seem to be connected and to have made an exchange of the red chain (renegade) for the obliteration spell (paragon). 

The renegade MC tells M2: "I gain nothing, they gain everything." The aforementioned supports that the 'they' is their Paragon counterpart. 

 

This is what I got from a particular Youtuber I watch, both his own comments and his commenters (and he did Karma. on both routes). 

To be honest I am struggling to see how this all fits together but at this point perhaps it's not all supposed to fit together since there are a lot of questions that need answering including the renegade MC's motive.

 

I am beginning to wonder if renegade is somehow a necessary evil because it's a means to paragon's success. 

 

Spoiler

Well...I think it's not anymore two possible outcomes, but it's the same outcome and the player experienced it depending on which route they are: if you are on Renegade, you see how this "Hooded Girl" becomes crazy and tries to kill the MC, while on Paragon Route, you see the exact moments after that Melia failed and Paragon Melia got her body instead. Stll, I think both Paragon Melia, who returned back, and the Renegade MC are the most aware of both routes interacting with each other and both of them traded their things, in order to succede in their paths. Basically, Rejuv is taking a dark path and Paragon Route need Renegade Route to happen in order to succede and having chances against this...World Shatterer, who to me it's the biggest threat and not Karma. If it's true that Variya ruins Karma's job in finding and setting a best ending for certain world, a question surges: why Variya want to ruin a perfect world? If, like I said, she doesn't want to give humanity free will back because the sins of Old Earth, why developing an Interceptor? Why creating her own demise?

 

[Lucifer Morningstar]

7 hours ago, SoulN7 said:

Well...I think it's not anymore two possible outcomes, but it's the same outcome and the player experienced it depending on which route they are: if you are on Renegade, you see how this "Hooded Girl" becomes crazy and tries to kill the MC, while on Paragon Route, you see the exact moments after that Melia failed and Paragon Melia got her body instead.

 

I much prefer this perspective; it fits together more cohesively than what the Youtubers were discussing, but with M2 being unaware of the connection, why would she go back to the beginning of renegade just to be instrumental in its success?  

[SoulN7]

Spoiler

Because she's not experienced like the V13.5's incarnations of Melia and has not the same tactician skills that she learned the way, especially with Damien's training. It's confirmed M2 comes from an older version of Rejuvenation and she has the bare knowledge of her powers, since she didn't know the name and she had Genesis Syndrome, leading her to abuse her powers and weaking in shorter time her body. Plus, she's literally crazy and thought she was better than MC and tasked them to help her, but it's the other way around, with M2 helping MC who, at this point is stronger than her, while doing it out of fear. M2 is just crazy, it's true that she's bit intelligent, but I think she's not aware of any connection and just wanted to torture people who hurt her and ruining her relationships.  

 

[BlackPrismHunte]

I think it's the opposite. We can only get good endings. And the reason why is that the Interceptor has been doing this for much longer than we can imagine. We know for a fact the Interceptor hit the reset button on the universe once already. Alexandra outright tells us this in those exact words. However Melia's backward dialogue in Angie's church flat out tells us that this number is very likely so.much.higher. Infinite monkey theorem tells us that eventually the Interceptor will find the perfect scenario and this is what we are gonna play. The one in a hundred million winning universe. Doing Karma's job but right. Unless the reset button stops functionning we litteraly cannot lose. We litteraly cannot get anything aside from what we want.

 

The World Shatterer? Karma? They can't win. Flat out, in any shape, way or form. All we need is one win. And we've got an infinite amount of try outs.

Edited December 1, 2023 by BlackPrismHunte

[SoulN7]

Still, I wonder how Adrest's soul was infused with MC if their soul inhabited choosen MC's body only in this timeline. 

 

Other than that, Karma could reach its objective with the best ending by following the Interceptor's will and actions, as this Interceptor, the MC, is the "true Interceptor" who could become the strongest mortal entity and guide the world to its bloom because its powers and abilites "grows": if I remember correctly, Clear and Kieran together had extremely low chances to beat Puppet Master and both were supposed to be Interceptor, while MC instead had chances near to 100% to beat him. I'd like to think the "power of changing fate" is much stronger in MC and makes them growing in "abilities" unlike the others, so making Clear and Kieran's limited powers conflicting in ours and ultimately probably loosing to us , since these powers have already beaten stronger entities. In short, like Tiempa is already doing, Karma, at some point, will have to follow our actions because those are the best one to bring the perfect ending to the world and it must "submit" to us at some point. 

The World Shatterer is still a mystery to me and it's still unknown what she can do against the Interceptor...

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I am re-watching an old V12 playthrough on Youtube (for fun) and there is a line that resonated with a reveal in 13.5. 

Spoiler

In the HoH whilst Damien is revealing his failed plot to lure Alexandra to him (using a sculpture of himself to falsify that he was turned to stone), he states and in gold text: "She will bring about the end of the world if I don't find her". 

Is Alexandra the World Shatterer perhaps?

 

[Magus543]

22 hours ago, Lucifer Morningstar said:

I am re-watching an old V12 playthrough on Youtube (for fun) and there is a line that resonated with a reveal in 13.5. 

  Hide contents

In the HoH whilst Damien is revealing his failed plot to lure Alexandra to him (using a sculpture of himself to falsify that he was turned to stone), he states and in gold text: "She will bring about the end of the world if I don't find her". 

Is Alexandra the World Shatterer perhaps?

 

He's actually talking about Nim. 

[dudeguyman]

On 11/29/2023 at 12:05 PM, SoulN7 said:

  Hide contents

Well...I think it's not anymore two possible outcomes, but it's the same outcome and the player experienced it depending on which route they are: if you are on Renegade, you see how this "Hooded Girl" becomes crazy and tries to kill the MC, while on Paragon Route, you see the exact moments after that Melia failed and Paragon Melia got her body instead. Stll, I think both Paragon Melia, who returned back, and the Renegade MC are the most aware of both routes interacting with each other and both of them traded their things, in order to succede in their paths. Basically, Rejuv is taking a dark path and Paragon Route need Renegade Route to happen in order to succede and having chances against this...World Shatterer, who to me it's the biggest threat and not Karma. If it's true that Variya ruins Karma's job in finding and setting a best ending for certain world, a question surges: why Variya want to ruin a perfect world? If, like I said, she doesn't want to give humanity free will back because the sins of Old Earth, why developing an Interceptor? Why creating her own demise?

 

 We know from V that a contract with Variya isn't the only way of becoming an interceptor, so, we can assume that Variya simply needs interceptors on her side of the board, that's why she gave Crescent free will just to punish her for not using it the way she wanted, And notice that MC's soul got shoved in its new body before the soul conglomerate became an interceptor, it agreed before getting free will, then MC's memory of what happened got cleared, making an interceptor that can't tell left from right and will do Variya's game without knowing it, which is the Paragon run until you awaken that dude, and you are in the Paragon run by default: you have to actively oppose your gamer's instinct AND be a psychopath by not doing side quests, not saving Amber, not get Espurr and Growlithe, not replaying the Vivian didn't sacrifice timeline to save that world, etc. to even have the option of doing a Renegade run. Nobody would do that before playing Paragon first.

Edited December 3, 2023 by dudeguyman

[Lucifer Morningstar]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:25 PM, Magus543 said:

He's actually talking about Nim. 

 

That has crossed my mind but he uses the name Alexandra in that conversation and in addition the first time Damien approaches the MC to inquire if they've seen her, the description he gives does fit Nim but he tells them he does not know what name she might have used with them because she uses aliases which Alexandra does not Nim. That has been confusing me even while I was playing this section in V12. 

 

18 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

 We know from V that a contract with Variya isn't the only way of becoming an interceptor, so, we can assume that Variya simply needs interceptors on her side of the board, that's why she gave Crescent free will just to punish her for not using it the way she wanted, And notice that MC's soul got shoved in its new body before the soul conglomerate became an interceptor, it agreed before getting free will, then MC's memory of what happened got cleared, making an interceptor that can't tell left from right and will do Variya's game without knowing it, which is the Paragon run until you awaken that dude, and you are in the Paragon run by default: you have to actively oppose your gamer's instinct AND be a psychopath by not doing side quests, not saving Amber, not get Espurr and Growlithe, not replaying the Vivian didn't sacrifice timeline to save that world, etc. to even have the option of doing a Renegade run. Nobody would do that before playing Paragon first.

 

It's now possible to choose not to undo stopping Vivian's sacrafice? Wouldn't that cause it to be impossible to return to the timeline we came from/where we belong? 

Forgive me, knowing me, I might be misunderstanding something. 

 

Nor am I sure I am following this free will concept. You seem to be claiming paragon is not free will but the game is designed so that it's near impossible if not impossible to get the renegade option without wanting to/knowingly making the corresponding choices. That's free will. 

The fact that we even get choices such as saving Amber rather than them being main story requirements is free will. 

[dudeguyman]

On 12/4/2023 at 5:33 AM, Lucifer Morningstar said:

 

That has crossed my mind but he uses the name Alexandra in that conversation and in addition the first time Damien approaches the MC to inquire if they've seen her, the description he gives does fit Nim but he tells them he does not know what name she might have used with them because she uses aliases which Alexandra does not Nim. That has been confusing me even while I was playing this section in V12. 

 

 

It's now possible to choose not to undo stopping Vivian's sacrafice? Wouldn't that cause it to be impossible to return to the timeline we came from/where we belong? 

Forgive me, knowing me, I might be misunderstanding something. 

 

Nor am I sure I am following this free will concept. You seem to be claiming paragon is not free will but the game is designed so that it's near impossible if not impossible to get the renegade option without wanting to/knowingly making the corresponding choices. That's free will. 

The fact that we even get choices such as saving Amber rather than them being main story requirements is free will. 

I'm talking about the Ana quest, where V, the antagonist, turns out to be an interceptor that didn't make a contract with Variya, at least if we have to take V's words at face value. This means there are who knows how many interceptors that aren't connected to Variya, the only two we definitely know are are Crescent and MC, so, we can conclude that one big reason why Variya makes interceptors is to protect herself against other interceptors. And I'm not talking about saving Vivian (her sacrifice is necessary, after all), but saving the world where you did save her.

While you do have free will, you will use it to decide to save Amber, to be nice to people, to do side quests, to be angry at Madam X saying you didn't do your job and eventually discover that you can save that world by doing absolutely nothing, to save the rift pokémon, etc. You might have free will on paper, but it only accounts to something if you have enough knowledge to not be lead like a puppet anyway, and that's what Variya counts on. Then you press the world reset button over and over again until you eventually go Renegade, maybe just to know what would happen at that point, and maybe Renegade won't work either, actually it has no chance of creating a good end by itself because fighting for oblivion is fighting for no future, but at that point you have the knowledge of both routes.

In gaming terms, I think you have to play a route, then new game plus into the other route, and new game plus again to get to the true ending. The thing is, from Melia's backwards dialogue, we know that MC "new game plussed" countless time, plus MC has also the power to exchange information with countless other versions of themselves deep inside the Zeight, so it might already be set up for you without you having to manually go trough two new game plusses, so, the ignorant MC that Variya made into an interceptor wouldn't be Paragon MC, but a past version of it.

Edited December 7, 2023 by dudeguyman