Tier Discussion (OU/Ubers)

[Mashew]

This has been run through the staff and ace member forums.

So, we figured it'd be time to ask the public. We're already pretty much set on what comes down to OU, but want to get a read on how people feel about potential bans. It can also be easily changed if it becomes problematic.

With nothing else to say, here's the list.

Ubers -> OU

Manaphy

Zygarde

Kyurem-B

OU -> Ubers

Mega Kangaskhan

Mega Gengar

Mega Blaziken

Mega Lucario

Genesect

Discuss your thoughts here and such.

[The Radiant Aeon]

I couldn't careless about any of them except Mega Blaziken. Care to explain why he is banned and not his Normal counter part?

[Rooreeloo]

I approve of this, send the cheap megas (+Genesect) upstairs and bring on the Zygardes Kyurems and Manaphys.

EDIT: And I agree with Aeon, ban standard Blaziken as well.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Rooreeloo

[The Radiant Aeon]

No I'm not saying "Ban Blaziken," I'm saying, "Why Mega Blaziken?

[Noivy]

I am ok with all of these changes

[Chevaleresse]

Mega KFC is arguably worse than regular KFC since it can't hold an item, so i say it stays OU if regular KFC remains there. I think Kyurem-B deserves to stay in Ubers due to its sheer power. I also think Aegislash is OP enough to warrant a ban, but that's just me. Others likely do not think so.

[Jory]

I like the list and I would suggest adding Blaziken to it. With the addition of Baton Pass to its movepool, it's a huge threat in any sense of the word. Its coverage is undeniably superb and it has the potential to sweep entire teams unless they pack specific counters.

[Neo]

GENESECT FOR OU. FUCK CONFORMITY FUCK MAKING THE COMMUNITY OPEN TO NEW PEOPLE. REBORN 2011 OR GO HOME.

[Gaunt]

Well if Mega Blaziken is Ubers i think Blaziken should also be there, i personally swept entire teams with it (in Ubers too) so yea.

P.S.

Post N^100 finally

[Lord Emvee]

I agree with everything except Genesect being moved into Ubers. Genesect has way too many checks in the XY metagame to be moved from OU. I'll list full details about this if needed.

Edited March 4, 2014 by So Heroic

[Godot]

its a matter of the fact that Genesect is so good that everyone uses him at the higher ranks. Throwing Genesect into ubers not only balances the meta better, but promotes originality.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I kinda want Hero to post about Genesect as why not to ban him. My thought is that he over-centralizes the Meta-Game forcing players to bring something to deal with him, the same with the Kicking Chicken. (I also believe this about Rotom-W, as his mere existence forces you to bring a grass move or you won't be having fun.)

Other notes, I believe the ones moved down are fine, none of them are extremely crazy powerful, like Manaphy and Zygarde require set-up to be the most effective, and both can be outplayed. Kyurem-B to be fair I don't know a lot about. I try not use Legends as much as possible because it feels a little cheap to me, however I do get some that are a bit "weaker" don't really break the meta. But I really have no Frame on which I can Judge him, so I am going to leave him out of my discussion for now.

I may not be the best player myself, but I can understand the meta, and whythings are really good and why are others are sorta meh. I am just a bit green, when it comes to playing myself.

(( Also that emote is so bloody annoying lol. Makes me look like I am joking around when I am not. I can't really word that sentence any other way as well))

Edited March 4, 2014 by Hukuna

[Lord Emvee]

Throwing Genesect into ubers not only balances the meta better, but promotes originality.

This statement is entirely false. It is in fact the Genesect users that promote originality, since there are so many different types of move-sets you can possibly use (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Life Orb, Expert Belt, Rock Polish, Focus Sash, Shift Gear, Techno Blast, and the list goes on), and with creativity, newer sets can be made (I myself have even used a Magic Coat Genesect set on the Reborn Ladder once for fun/trolling). And the meta will be entirely balanced with all the changes implemented from this thread (bar Genesect moving from OU).

Anyways, before I begin, I'd like to point out some of the key changes between Gen 5 and Gen 6. I can admit, that during Gen 5, Genesect might have stood a chance as being a worthy suspect. I'm not quite sure I can say the same about Gen 6.

- The Steel type loses it's Dark and Ghost type resistance making stuff like Aegislash and Mega Mawile (Sucker Punch) for example, a worthy combatant against certain Genesect sets.

- The invention of the Assault Vest, ensuring capability of tanking Special hits and retaliating hard with KO'ing moves (for example, AV Conkeldurr is an all around check to most Genesect sets).

- New widely used priority users such as Talonflame allow for CB Brave Bird to OHKO Genesect right off the bat, and Klefki can cripple it and resist most of its attacks.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Besides the new stuff however, the same old counters and checks remains the same.

The thing with Genesect, is that depending on the set, certain counters/checks don't work, however, it opens up other counters/checks against Genesect. For example, a Choice Banded Genesect may be able to beat Chansey/Blissey which are able to wall its Choice Scarf (and other Special Attacking) sets, however, this now makes Genesect vulnerable to Pokemon that are over base 100 speed (For example, Victini, Infernape, Terrakion, etc). Plus, most offensive teams that generally don't have a wall like stall teams do for Genesect either keep a fast Choice Scarf user which often times outruns Genesect (since many today's revenge killers are over base 100 speed), or a strong priority user with Mach Punch which also can take down Genesect after some residual damage.

We never banned Genesect from 5G OU, so why, with all the newly added ways to beat it should we ban it from 6G OU? I vote no ban.

Edited March 4, 2014 by So Heroic

[diana]

Never voted on this in either place, so.

I agree with all of the Uber --> OU changes (skymin pls i mean it has 75/75 defenses and genesect got to stay in ou;w;)

I'd also kinda like to suggest banning Mega Mawile, because hitting 678 attack without a boost is really strong- not to mention that in a trick room team, it's almost unstoppable outside of a Heatran. Given the right tools and team support, it's kinda like free wins,

[Shanco]

Disagreeing about Genesect not needing to be banned. It's not promoting originality if everyone uses the same Pokemon, regardless of what the set is - it can do too many things better than others, plain and simple, with better defenses in many cases not to mention only one weakness. It's an obvious freelo train; ban it.

As for the others, I agree with their banning/unbanning. I've personally never had any problems with Mega Gengar so whatever, since apparently other people have.

I don't care about Blaziken, never had problems. Won't comment.

I'm on the fence about Mega Mawile since I haven't seen much about him. Huge Power on a poke like that seems to be a little bit much.

[Sapphire]

AGree with everything being banned except Mega Blaziken-because it just has so many counters now. (Talonflame and Azumaril spring to mind)

Murdoc-Aegislash is one of the most easily countered mons in the game...

[Shamitako]

Well, I think that regular Blaziken should be Uber and mega be OU. But I guess that's just me

Mega Mawile takes a bit of setup to really wreck things, it has given me problem every now and then, but not too often, just toss a Hydreigon at it and you're golden (Resists Sucker Punch with enough power to OHKO before Play Rough, unless Trick Room or boosts of course)

There's another mega that I'd like to seebanned, but I can't remember what it was

[Noir]

Personally, both Mega Blaziken and the normal Blaziken should be banned.

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 271-321 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 286-339 (70.7 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sure, Life Orb Blaziken hits harder. However, factor in how normal Blaziken needs Jolly to outrun things, especially Scarfed ones; Choice Scarf Terrakion for instance outspeeds a +2 Adamant Blaziken. Mega Blaziken's increased speed allows it to run Adamant without particular fear of being outsped so they pretty much have the same damage. Just my two cents.

EDIT: Not to mention that Baton Pass is legal with Speed Boost now, so if you try to scare it out it'll just pass it to something else.

Genesect obviously merits a ban, you don't know how frustrating it is to see it always get away with a kill, come back in and do it again, especially considering the Defog buff that settles the hazard issue slightly, and Fairies. Genesect was never meant to take a hit to begin with so the Steel resist nerf isn't a big deal.

Edited March 4, 2014 by YagamiNoir4896

[Wendel]

Mega Blaze and normal Blaze are both easily killed by Eq or a strong Flying attack and cause there are a lot of those they aren't really a big threat maybe a little threat but if you still have a poke that packs a punch you can still get through their pretty bad defenses

[Shamitako]

Pfft. You're kidding, right? Blaziken is not easy to beat at all. There's a reason it's capable of sweeping entire teams of Ubers

[Kamina]

yea i kinda agree about both the blazakins being banned and the reason for this is that the only REAL hard counters are talonflame and maybe mega pinsir( nvm only a check). This is because if there is a threat, chances are blazakin can usually outspeed and than baton pass out of there to another pokemon who can probably tank moves like eq or counter blazkin's counter such as jellicant and get a huge speed boost (and maybe attack boost).

Difference between blazakin and scolipede is that blazakin can actually sweep pretty easily and can also be both a phisical attacker or a special attacker while scelepede can only be phisical and can be walled by many common pokemon (especially if it decided to run baton pass) such as landorus-t and skarmory and does not have the awesome coverage that blazakin has in general.

mawile is fine imo i mean maybe in trick room it's good but trick room already has it's own flaws (having a pokemon [or multiple pokemon] to set it up while not being taunted and than losing a turn because you have to switch to mawile) and outside of trick room the only move it can use to hit faster pokemon which are bulky is a non stab sucker punch. With common pokes such as lando-t roaming around i don't think it should be much of a problem to deal with.

[Lord Emvee]

Disagreeing about Genesect not needing to be banned. It's not promoting originality if everyone uses the same Pokemon, regardless of what the set is - it can do too many things better than others, plain and simple, with better defenses in many cases not to mention only one weakness. It's an obvious freelo train; ban it.

I've given really good reasons as to why Genesect shouldn't be banned. I haven't seen you give one other than "it's an obvious freelo train" which in my opinion is a bogus claim if you can't back it up. Plus what are you even talking about? Genesect has always had one weakness and we never banned it in Gen 5. And in Gen 6, when it loses 2 resistances you want to ban it hello? Logic101. And I have no idea what you mean by "too many things better than others" and "better defenses" that just made absolutely no sense.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Cowtao

[Ikaru]

Mega KFC is arguably worse than regular KFC since it can't hold an item, so i say it stays OU if regular KFC remains there. I think Kyurem-B deserves to stay in Ubers due to its sheer power. I also think Aegislash is OP enough to warrant a ban, but that's just me. Others likely do not think so.

The thing about Kyurem-B is its lack of STAB on the Ice side and with the advent of fairies its Dragon STAB means less now. It lost more than it gained and it was OU last gen. Still just as weak to all the same priority (and stealth rocks for that matter) it was before and it lacks many coverage moves unless you run it mixed. It does have that sheer power you mentioned, but that's about it.

I like the list and I would suggest adding Blaziken to it. With the addition of Baton Pass to its movepool, it's a huge threat in any sense of the word. Its coverage is undeniably superb and it has the potential to sweep entire teams unless they pack specific counters.

I'm not sure "coverage" is the word you're looking for here since its only real non-STAB options are like 70 base power, and if you're using Baton Pass you probably have no more than two attacks anyway.

GENESECT FOR OU. FUCK CONFORMITY FUCK MAKING THE COMMUNITY OPEN TO NEW PEOPLE. REBORN 2011 OR GO HOME.

pls take seriously

I kinda want Hero to post about Genesect as why not to ban him. My thought is that he over-centralizes the Meta-Game forcing players to bring something to deal with him, the same with the Kicking Chicken. (I also believe this about Rotom-W, as his mere existence forces you to bring a grass move or you won't be having fun.)

Other notes, I believe the ones moved down are fine, none of them are extremely crazy powerful, like Manaphy and Zygarde require set-up to be the most effective, and both can be outplayed. Kyurem-B to be fair I don't know a lot about. I try not use Legends as much as possible because it feels a little cheap to me, however I do get some that are a bit "weaker" don't really break the meta. But I really have no Frame on which I can Judge him, so I am going to leave him out of my discussion for now.

I may not be the best player myself, but I can understand the meta, and whythings are really good and why are others are sorta meh. I am just a bit green, when it comes to playing myself.

(( Also that emote is so bloody annoying lol. Makes me look like I am joking around when I am not. I can't really word that sentence any other way as well))

if you go to More Reply Options you can turn off emoticons

This statement is entirely false. It is in fact the Genesect users that promote originality, since there are so many different types of move-sets you can possibly use (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Life Orb, Expert Belt, Rock Polish, Focus Sash, Shift Gear, Techno Blast, and the list goes on), and with creativity, newer sets can be made (I myself have even used a Magic Coat Genesect set on the Reborn Ladder once for fun/trolling). And the meta will be entirely balanced with all the changes implemented from this thread (bar Genesect moving from OU).

Anyways, before I begin, I'd like to point out some of the key changes between Gen 5 and Gen 6. I can admit, that during Gen 5, Genesect might have stood a chance as being a worthy suspect. I'm not quite sure I can say the same about Gen 6.

- The Steel type loses it's Dark and Ghost type resistance making stuff like Aegislash and Mega Mawile (Sucker Punch) for example, a worthy combatant against certain Genesect sets.

- The invention of the Assault Vest, ensuring capability of tanking Special hits and retaliating hard with KO'ing moves (for example, AV Conkeldurr is an all around check to most Genesect sets).

- New widely used priority users such as Talonflame allow for CB Brave Bird to OHKO Genesect right off the bat, and Klefki can cripple it and resist most of its attacks.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Besides the new stuff however, the same old counters and checks remains the same.

The thing with Genesect, is that depending on the set, certain counters/checks don't work, however, it opens up other counters/checks against Genesect. For example, a Choice Banded Genesect may be able to beat Chansey/Blissey which are able to wall its Choice Scarf (and other Special Attacking) sets, however, this now makes Genesect vulnerable to Pokemon that are over base 100 speed (For example, Victini, Infernape, Terrakion, etc). Plus, most offensive teams that generally don't have a wall like stall teams do for Genesect either keep a fast Choice Scarf user which often times outruns Genesect (since many today's revenge killers are over base 100 speed), or a strong priority user with Mach Punch which also can take down Genesect after some residual damage.

We never banned Genesect from 5G OU, so why, with all the newly added ways to beat it should we ban it from 6G OU? I vote no ban.

To be fair I'm not sure anyone uses half those sets, although they are there, so that's acceptable. But at the same time, that's the issue- it has so many things it can run that you're not really sure what counters it until it may or may not be too late. A lot of those listed counters (while I don't outright disagree with them) are weak to moves that it can use. Last I recall, Dragonite was the same in that you don't have any defined counters until you know what set it's running. Obviously Dragonite is less extreme, but how do you account for that?

Disagreeing about Genesect not needing to be banned. It's not promoting originality if everyone uses the same Pokemon, regardless of what the set is - it can do too many things better than others, plain and simple, with better defenses in many cases not to mention only one weakness. It's an obvious freelo train; ban it.

As for the others, I agree with their banning/unbanning. I've personally never had any problems with Mega Gengar so whatever, since apparently other people have.

I don't care about Blaziken, never had problems. Won't comment.

I'm on the fence about Mega Mawile since I haven't seen much about him. Huge Power on a poke like that seems to be a little bit much.

Please be more detailed. This is a discussion, not a "I disagree with you but I'm not going to explain myself" thread

To you (and wolf actually), tiers aren't for promoting originality; the primary effect is preventing overcentralisation. If originality comes with it, great, but that's not what we're looking for.

Mega Blaze and normal Blaze are both easily killed by Eq or a strong Flying attack and cause there are a lot of those they aren't really a big threat maybe a little threat but if you still have a poke that packs a punch you can still get through their pretty bad defenses

"Rayquaza is easily killed by a strong Ice attack and cause there are a lot of those it isn't really a big threat"

Sorry for the attitude and all but I really can't stand the "x beats y, so y is invalid" argument and I've seen it several times in the last 24 hours.

I've given really good reasons as to why Genesect shouldn't be banned. I haven't seen you give one other than "it's an obvious freelo train" which in my opinion is a bogus claim if you can't back it up. Plus what are you even talking about? Genesect has always had one weakness and we never banned it in Gen 5. And in Gen 6, when it loses 2 resistances you want to ban it hello? Logic101. And I have no idea what you mean by "too many things better than others" and "better defenses" that just made absolutely no sense.

That tone could be worked on... It IS a discussion after all and although we agree he could be more detailed, I think you could have left it at that. And in his defense there were a lot of things we didn't ban in Gen 5, but you have a point.

Well, I think that regular Blaziken should be Uber and mega be OU. But I guess that's just me

Mega Mawile takes a bit of setup to really wreck things, it has given me problem every now and then, but not too often, just toss a Hydreigon at it and you're golden (Resists Sucker Punch with enough power to OHKO before Play Rough, unless Trick Room or boosts of course)

There's another mega that I'd like to seebanned, but I can't remember what it was

Banning a regular Pokemon and letting the Mega stay OU is impossible. You have to have the normal one to use the Mega form and there's no way to enforce that.

@ original post- I guess we changed our mind about Yveltal? And as a reminder to everyone else-

It can also be easily changed if it becomes problematic.

[Lord Emvee]

To be fair I'm not sure anyone uses half those sets, although they are there, so that's acceptable. But at the same time, that's the issue- it has so many things it can run that you're not really sure what counters it until it may or may not be too late. A lot of those listed counters (while I don't outright disagree with them) are weak to moves that it can use. Last I recall, Dragonite was the same in that you don't have any defined counters until you know what set it's running. Obviously Dragonite is less extreme, but how do you account for that?

If that's the case, then it would narrow down the possible sets of what it could be. That doesn't change what Pokemon will counter/check it. True, the listed counters/checks can be weak to moves that Genesect can use, but that is why it is called a check. A check is a Pokemon that cannot necessarily switch into a certain Pokemon, but can scare it out or revenge kill it. Take Terrakion for example. Not many Pokemon can switch safely into a Choice Banded Close Combat, however, there are a plethora of Pokemon that can safely check it, (like Scizor, or Breloom). You don't really need to know what set Genesect is running beforehand in order to beat it. Good team-building can do that for you, though while you're in battle, generally people don't have more than 1 Choice Scarf user, so if you see any other Scarf-mon then Genesect is most likely not a Choice Scarf user. Similarly, if you see a Choice Banded Pokemon that isn't Genesect, the Genesect that they'll have is probably not a Choice Banded set. It just takes some thinking but ultimately I don't see that as a reason to ban the Pokemon, especially since there are many Pokemon in the 6G Meta to beat it. For the Dragonite example that you gave, even though there are a variety of possible sets you can use, there are in fact defined answers to it, (like Clefable, Mamoswine, etc). Counters/Checks can change with varying sets, meaning that with one moveset, there are a certain set of counters/checks, and with another moveset, there can be another certain set of counters/checks (example: Scarf Genesect: Chansey; Band Genesect: Landorus-T), but there will always be defined answers to all Pokemon in general (example: Genesect: Heatran, Rotom-H, etc). Unpredictability is always a natural factor of competitive battling and one shouldn't be afraid of what they don't fully understand.

Edited March 4, 2014 by So Heroic

[Chevaleresse]

The problem with Genesect is that it has everything. While it isn't particularly tanky, it has a good defensive typing. It has excellent attacking stats across the board, and backs them up with an incredible movepool. It has both unpredictability and power. The combination is broken, not having either. There should be a tradeoff. Talonflame is very good at what it does - and pretty much every talonflame runs the same set as the last 10. Smeargle is the epitome of unpredictable, but it isn't very good at anything, lacking the stats to back up the movepool.