discussion Melia concerns me at times

[KT541aru]

Playing the paragon route of Karma files and I'm concerned about Melia.  She's always struck me as this ticking time bomb and doesn't seem to learn. Not really. If I were to name, her fundamental flaw is she has control issues. Not in the sense she thinks she's better than everyone but she doesn't trust the people around her to make the decisions they feel are best for them and accept the risks. Where I'm at, she's asked for access to the Zeight and is using it in the on the surface most effective way. She asks us to keep things secret and quietly evades how she was just told by everyone to trust her friends and to be more open about her struggles. It more feels like she saw an opportunity to try and do both. She's working on a secret plan with just the MC but is also there for her family. She's manipulating events, like with the legendary beasts situation without letting you know, and she's slowly becoming dependent on the power the Zeight gives her.

Because we are paragons, we trust her and her decision-making and allow her full access to our power. We share the burden of that responsibility it brings. Yet in doing so we must keep her plan a secret from her friends. At times I wonder if she internalized, that unless she has all the power/control, she will lose. She's lost her father, she's seen a world where the heroes lose without Vivian's sacrifices, and she has been manipulated by forces beyond her understanding since day one. Although she says she'll do better I think her actions on occasions reveal someone who has been deeply hurt by the events that have passed.

It's why I'm concerned. If another tragedy hits her, (which is likely there's no such thing as a perfect plan) what will she do?

[Dawn Oceana]

To be hoenst, I don't think predicting what will happen with Rejuvenation characters is possible like at all.

 

What I mean is that Rejuvenation has a genuinely completely unpredictable story. You can't predict the concept of the Interceptor, Variya, The Core, Nymeria and Indriad's origins, Alice and Allen being related to Melia and Erin, Ren just hanging out with us all even though he's Team Xen now (I'm still kind of ??? about that honestly), Aelita being literally Taelia, etc, at any point in the story. It's not really possible to guess what the future events of the story are going to be because they could be just about anything. It'll hopefully all make sense in hindsight, but that doesn't mean you can predict it in advance.

 

It could turn out that even mainline Melia just goes full M2 and M2's all over the place, or it could turn out that Karma just disables her bad memories and experiences of tragedy and so she's just fine now, It could be that she experiences a tragedy and then is instantly warped to The Nice Universe Where Everything Is Good Forever for like 20 years and when we meet her again she's 40, and this was all part of a scheme to trick Indriad, it could be that Melia's already been swapped with a non-M2 alternate Melia, like say, Paradox Melia, it could be Melia is being secretly influenced by the Zygarde Entity, and I think none of these outcomes would shock me. I can probably come up with like 400 more. The type of tragedy that hits her should matter I'd think. I'd like the story more if your fears about her came to pass and went basically as you wrote, but I have no idea what to even think of expecting (Beyond a couple of theories I'm fairly sure of.)

 

Right now, the fact that things are so unpredictable is a good thing because the surprise concepts are all either kind of cool or really cool (but they weren't always and I really really really really hate the Aelita/Taelia thing). But it also means that questions like this about supernaturally bound characters like Melia are kind of impossible, and if my theories about how the game will ultimately go are correct, it's kind of impossible for any character.

[Syn Moon]

6 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said:

I really really really really hate the Aelita/Taelia thing

I'm curious why do you not like this twist?

[Dawn Oceana]

1 hour ago, Syn Moon said:

I'm curious why do you not like this twist?

 

There are incredibly uncomfortable implications that were spelt out even more directly in past versions where Eldest used to say "Keta is not your father, he is, in fact, your husband." However, Aelita still does and always will regard Keta as her father. But, Aelita goes on a quest to regain all of Taelia's memories without exception... and that's going to include, like, actually conceiving a baby with her dad.

 

Aelita being a reincarnation in some fashion of Vivian is not a bad idea, especially since we now know Vivian had Lore Important powers. The fact that along the path of reincarnation she met Keta and then warped back into a child and Keta was like "I guess I'll adopt my wife now" feels incredibly off in a way the story feels kind of afraid to confront the way it needs to be. Aelita reacts badly, and calls herself a freak, and tries to cope with the whole thing, but I feel like the actual trauma of the reveal would go way deeper than even what we see in the rift scene, and she gets over it too quickly, she forgives Keta too quickly for it to feel real, her feelings about Keta seem to return to uncomplicated positivity, nobody really acknowledges exactly why her situation is so fucked up. It feels like given how bad her reaction was, that this realization was buried in the game's story somewhere, and then just doesn't get dealt with because it's too weird, but then later events of getting Taelia's memories back make it weirder. I would say it's my least favourite reveal in Rejuvenation.

 

In contrast, some of the best reveals and twists have just been really simple. Rhodea was Sandra in Hiyoshi - duh of course, they basically told us that when we first met her, how did I not see it coming? Then again the best one actually was really complicated, the one where Arceus has been dead for centuries and the entire world is a hacked together attempt to restore some kind of life - but okay, that's sick and way better than I was expecting, it makes every single part of the story better, it's a huge W. Aelita was both her dad's daughter and wife... not uhhhh what I was looking for.

[comcart]

I have to say, the implications of Aelita discovering she's Taelia are VAST, and I can completely understand if Aelita was traumatized or affected by it, but I do think there are SOME other factors in Aelita's situation that need to be considered to make sense of why everyone acts the way they do. Starting off with Keta, the reason why he adopts Aelita was very likely out of grief, since he was there when Taelia died, and reincarnated into Aelita. I honestly believe -- take this with a grain of salt, since I haven't played WLL -- it had to be part of why he was willing to give up his emotions, and became so cold to Aelita eventually. He lost his actual daughter, and then he lost his wife, and the universe in some cruel twist of fate, gave him his wife as a child -- which granted, is sort of strange, but we can see, as players, that Keta very clearly did NOT have any of those feelings for Aelita that he had for Taelia. Did he maybe have lingering feelings when Aelita was growing up? Probably, as a remnant of his grief. There's no way he COULDN'T see his wife in her, but even when Keta HAD his emotions back, we can see that he considered Aelita his child at most, or simply someone he was responsible for at the very least.

Another thing, is that Aelita was very, VERY likely not telling us the full extent of her feelings about discovering she was a reincarnation of her "mom" and Vivian. The MC can even point it out after Aelita wakes up from the Rift Battle, and Cella notes that Aelita made a "speedy recovery", you can take a chance to say "too speedy..." and point out that Aelita is weirdly chipper. I wholeheartedly believe that Aelita's feelings had to be a lot more complicated than she let us know, especially after we just had to fight to break her free -- plus, the curse affected her mood drastically, and after having been tortured at Blacksteeple, plus her "failure" (as she saw it) while getting the Earth Heart from Groudon, her personality had changed SO much, that having a bigger more traumatic fit WOULD make sense, but Aelita WAS usually a really positive person. She's a layered character, who wants to be positive and strong and fight for people, but who can manifest those feelings in a way - especially after the curse business - where she doesn't want people to worry about her, and she can't allow herself to fall and need people to pick up where she failed. Working together as a team is something she loves, but if she's the weak link that shatters, that's an unbearable feeling for her. Anyways -- That's all to say, she more than likely TRULY worked through her feelings about it all while she was on her journey to find the power Vivian left for her. (As an aside, during the Rift battle, Taelia tells Aelita that they share blood and soul, but afterwards, Vivian had apparently confirmed that with the curse broken, they are now no longer the same person? Aelita herself even says she's a new person, so, it's a little confusing all around, but... I bring this up for an important reason.)

We are never explicitly shown what Aelita finds at those springs, and the memories she DOES unlock -- which is honestly why I'd petition for another side chapter like WLL where we DO get to see what she does there, so that things are confirmed, and we can SEE Aelita coping and getting through the whole idea that Keta isn't her father, but technically her past life's husband, and she's a reincarnation with no parents -- but... Considering her whole journey is meant to be retrieving the power that Vivian was handing down to her, I... Sort of doubt that Aelita would have been shown a vision of Taelia and Keta conceiving Nora... I don't doubt there were maybe memories where Taelia was pregnant, or Keta was affectionate, but not only does the game address that Aelita is now a separate person from Vivian and Taelia by the end of the rift scene, I doubt the game, or the world of Rejuvenation, would show her a scene like that, even if she WAS going through to retrieve their memories. I assumed it was only the i m p o r t a n t memories, like that weird lady attached to the tree that Aelita knew during a flashback fight with Texen. If she was getting ALL of Taelia and Vivian's memories, there would be a lot of boring days where they just did routine stuff, but the springs were meant to awaken POWER inside of Aelita, not... Show her Taelia meditating 50 different times. Plus, it would just be messed up, in such a way that I don't think the game would do that to her XD.

The fact that the game doesn't show us her coping with it does kind of suck, and I can say really does lessen the impact in a sense, but... Speaking back on grief and who Aelita is as a person... I feel like out of any reason she would have had to forgive Keta so quickly, would have to be that he was dead. Some people are very quick to forgive the dead for mistakes they made while alive, and despite the fact that Keta kept the truth from her, he didn't do it out of malice, and for much of her life, he must have been a caring enough father, who had to work through the grief of her dead "mother" while taking care of his new daughter all alone -- except for Cella/The Eldest's help of course. He likely kept it from her because he knew something like the curse might trigger, or that it was just better that Aelita not know while she was so young, and by the time she might've been old enough ((because I think she's around 16-18 in the game...?)) he had thrown away his emotions to keep everyone safe from Team Xen in Sheridan, and he wouldn't let Aelita near him. He was a troubled, complicated man, who made bad decisions trying to do the right thing for the people he loved, and going through Taelia's memories, where Aelita got to see the kind, good part of him -- probably even the part of him that loved Nora -- I can see her slowly finding it in her heart to forgive him, and come back to the MC and the rest of the group feeling okay and still loving Keta as a "father" figure of sorts, because that's what he was to her.

PLUS... Even though we go through game dialogue super fast, I don't doubt that in-game Aelita was on that journey for a lot longer than we as players perceived. I have to say, Aelita's twist, while not being one of my personal top favorites ((I loved EVERYTHING in .KF about the world and how machine it is, Melia having Genesis Syndrome, and the whole story of the A-Gang/Interceptor with Crescent)), it was still a REALLY good twist! It expanded upon her character, and left us room to hypothesize and headcanon more about Aelita -- such as the personality analysis I did! The vague implications of "oh my god, Aelita was Taelia, and her and Keta had a KID, but then Keta raised his own wife??" is weird if you look at it like that, but there's a LOT more going on with Aelita's character that I think makes her twist one of the best in the game.

[Dawn Oceana]

48 minutes ago, comcart said:

I assumed it was only the i m p o r t a n t memories,

 

I can only go by the actual text in the game. While it would be better if this was the case, the game just said Aelita got one half of Taelia's memories, then the other half. When she got just half, I took that to mean "Ah, okay, well obviously this is so I can just naturally avoid the memories she'd have with Keta a-" and then she said "And then I got the other half also" and I was like. Oh. Okay. Likewise, I didn't read too much into the "too speedy" option because all it does is cause friendship loss with Aelita. While it would make sense and be good writing for Aelita to not actually be fully all resolved with this stuff, when the game doesn't actually express it in writing, I can't pretend it exists. Likewise, your reasons for why Aelita would forgive Keta so easily, or what would make sense with the memories she got back, and so on, would all make sense and be good writing... and they're not in the game. Aelita never even seems to have a hint of lingering resentment towards Keta, that she had to overcome, even in the Rift world the concept doesn't even come up. And this is after she's told us in the past her dad's an asshole (v13 Terajuma conversation). Likewise, while it would make sense if Aelita was just suppressing things, it's sure never expressed in the game.

 

In contrast, Melia's Genesis Syndrome gets dealt with properly. The Blakeory family scandal and it's effect on Saki gets dealt with properly (better than most things in the game in fact). Erin's backstory gets dealt with properly whenever it comes up. But with Aelita, it's like the game isn't even aware of some of the implications of the story.

 

On the one hand, Keta saw a lonely child who was the only living connection to his wife that remained and took her in. On the other hand, when I imagine the concept of "adopting your wife" and attempting to "raise your wife", I get a very bad feeling about it. I've often thought about "What would you even do in a situation like that, if it was you?", but I think even if I took in my wife-child out of grief and not thinking straight, eventually, the weirdness would make me ask Eldest to do it. Not that it wouldn't be weird for her, but there's never been any romantic implications for her.

[comcart]

In a game like pokemon, especially a pokemon fangame with limited model expressions, and already so much packed into it with all the characters, story twists, and lore to explore, I have to say, the devs are very encouraging to a healthy amount of assumption, especially in situations like this where sticking in a million flashbacks of Aelita's whole journey out of nowhere right now would be bulky and uncomfortable, which is likely why they only stuck to one flashback to Sheridan. I, personally, will choose to believe what I've specified has to be at least partially what the devs had in mind - especially since the dialogue option "Too speedy" loses you friendship points, and would make sense if Aelita is t r y i n g to avoid addressing things. Just because you chose not to read into it, doesn't mean the implication the statement brings up isn't there. Of course, you could read it as the MC being snarky and implying they wish Aelita had stayed down longer, and if I could go back and read Aelita's follow-up dialogue in response to the MC, perhaps I would know more, but knowing the way our Devs write, I'd say it's like... a good 75% chance that it's the MC being concerned, and Aelita dodging the implied tone.

In regards to Taelias Memories, I will admit, I did not remember the FULL extent of what Aelita said in that scenario, but I have to say... We are both making blind assumptions here based on whether or not the Devs would actually choose to give Aelita the memories of the people she considers her "parents" boning. ((Also yadda yadda her and Taelia technically aren't connected anymore, it's like viewing your friends or parents memories, not your own, she would feel no connection to BEING Taelia etc etc)) It's why I, once again, think to fill this gap in writing, they should someday make another side-game like WLL to explore Aelita's journey, the memories she actually receives, and how she processes her emotions. In the current state, we're making positive and negative assumptions based on her vague statement and what the Devs might've done in a part of a game we can't explore. I don't deny, not getting to fully explore the potential emotional arc Aelita got to go on without us DOES suck from a writing standpoint! However, with all the lore exploring, world saving, and friend bonding we had to do at the time Aelita returned, I'm not surprised we haven't gotten more of an exploration of her journey IN Rejuvenation -- and of course that could change! There's so much to write and explore, and even though .KF could have been a good place to explore Aelita's memories, since we were essentially killing time, we were doing a LOT of plot important stuff with Melia instead. ((That being said, if anything of Aelita's journey gets explored at all, it's probably never gonna be explored in a renegade route XDD)) They have packed SO much into this game, there are certain things that they h a v e to leave to assumption -- if only for now, to explore l a t e r.

For example, we only have a few diary entries from when Melia was in the storm chasers, before it skips to like... Years later, and we never get to see those memories of her time there! That is never explored, and we're returned with a new Melia, who, while yes, does TELL us vaguely about the time and how she changed from her journey, we never get to see it first hand, and the exact things that caused her to change. We are left to only assume, and Melia now has a somewhat different personality and priorities. Plus, she's come to terms with certain things that she hadn't before, and developed new thought patterns. She was gone for LITERALLY 2-3 years I think?? We can make a billion assumptions about her time there, and the things she went through to become the person she became, just as we can assume Aelita probably had a healing journey regaining the memory of her "past lives," and came to terms with so much about herself. She was either strong enough to move past her feelings with Keta, or is still putting up a front that just hasn't broken down yet -- especially since in the nightmare realms, Aelita brings up how she still has identity issues, so she could still not be letting on as much as she actually feels! But again! Assumptions! A positive one, and not a negative one.

Melia's Genesis Syndrome gets addressed so closely because she's basically a deuteragonist to the story, Saki is addressed because the thing with the Blakeorys was SO huge, what was revealed about the Nightmare Realm and Axis High was SO important, she couldn't be ignored - AND she was the next gym leader we had to fight. For Erin, it was simply her time to shine in the moment, just as Aelita shared with us a memory of her trip in the transport to Eclysia, because that was her small moment to share a memory with us! Each character gets their time, and sometimes, when they're SO important, they have to be dealt with immediately, even when someone like Aelita is there with a whole story she's dying to share more than likely -- or maybe she doesn't want to share it, who knows, again, assuming things here xD. The game hasn't had the time to address Aelita yet, but I don't doubt that she'll have her moment in the sun to share more of what she learned and knows with us, especially with that thing that happened with the Admin in a sidequest from .KF. Aelita is an important character, she's just not... And I'm sorry to say this... So important as to stop the big story with Melia, or Crescent, to share with us what she's learned quite yet. She told us the dramatic information at the League Administration, but I'm sure when there's another quiet, friendly moment between the MC and her, things such as those memories, or her feelings about them, may or may not be discussed.

About Keta, this is purely a matter of differing opinions and assumptions again -- I'm starting to think we're just very different when it comes to this game and Keta + Aelita's whole thing XDD. To be fair though, Aelita did mention in a past version, as you said, that her dad was an asshole, and it seems like the Eldest HAD stepped up to raise Aelita QUITE a bit, especially while Keta was in his emotionless era. So, Aelita definitely wasn't too happy with her "father," because he didn't seem to b e very close with her, while on the other hand, the Eldest was -- for more than a few reasons xD. Keta, however, died. And not only did he DIE, he DIED sacrificing himself for Aelita and the MC, fighting a battle against a Mewtwo he DEFINITELY wasn't going to kill. Aelita seems like the character who, for the most part, chooses introspection and quiet self-healing, over sharing that journey with her friends. So, yeah, she was definitely ((I'm assuming)) conflicted on how to feel about Keta for a while, especially since she got tortured for being his "daughter", but after a long road of healing, curse-breaking, memory exploring, and self-exploration, she likely, found it in her heart to forgive him in some way ((assisted by the grief of his sacrifice for her)), and moved on without talking it out with us. OR, she chose to ignore it and muffle it down, and maybe it'll all come back. ORRR.... Literally nothing at all, and Aelita is just a flat character, and the devs flopped while writing her. Which I, personally, don't assume is the case, not with how much love the Devs put into everything.

I don't intend to change your mind with this btw, I just... Really don't think the twist is as bad as you think it is, yk...? Especially because you c o u l d assume things that would put Aelita in a better light, before the devs maybe end up exploring it themselves! Especially when they seem to make sense narratively! If you don't want to, that's completely fair!! Fans can have SUPPPPPER differing opinions about stuff like this all the time, I just hoped a different perspective could maybe shine a light on things you didn't realize :)

[Dawn Oceana]

3 hours ago, comcart said:

I don't intend to change your mind with this btw, I just... Really don't think the twist is as bad as you think it is, yk...? Especially because you c o u l d assume things that would put Aelita in a better light, before the devs maybe end up exploring it themselves!

This is exactly the thing I don't intend to do though. If the canonical writing of something isn't good, then I don't want to replace it with stuff that I just made up. While it would make sense to insert certain assumptions, I can't assume that some part of the story actually makes sense, as opposed to having been written badly. This goes especially for other worse plot holes in Rejuvenation (most of which were patched up in 13.5, although to my memory one particularly bad one remains, but almost everything else got swept up in the story improvements and instead of getting a little change, got a dramatic change. E.g. the bridge being out in Grand Dream, it's so so so so so so so so so so so much better.) It's not that I choose not to read into things, it's that I'm taking the game at face value and assuming what's written is the case. Generally you can tell when there's some sort of subtext, but Aelita's dialogue never suggests any subtext of "Um I'm still fucked up by this", especially when she actually interacts with the Royers. I think the "Too Speedy..." option, in other words, is just an option for players to be mean to Aelita to say that they're unhappy to see her back to normal so quickly, just like all the other player options that let you plus or minus your friendship with someone. It would be annoying in fact if an option that was meant to express concern about Aelita cost you friendship points from a gameplay perspective.

 

Likewise, in terms of making assumptions, I wouldn't say I'm making an assumption about Taelia's memories - Aelita says she gets "one half", and then she gets "the other half". The obvious reading is she gets all of Taelia's memories. All would include All. It felt like the issue of what those memories could include was totally ignored, which only further made me dislike the whole "Aelita is Taelia" thing. 

 

It's up to the writers to make the canon material make sense or work a certain way, and if they haven't written it a certain way, then I'm not going to insert my own ideas to make it work how I want it to, or I won't be able to perceive the actual work. 

 

Regarding why it'd be impractical to fill in Aelita's story now - I don't agree. It would be impractical to do it in Chapter 16, maybe, except then again, Renegade is about to get a bunch of Aelita heavy segments and so a bunch of Aelita heavy flashbacks isn't out of the question. But really more importantly, Chapter 11-14's already gotten quite a lot of edits from 13.5, so who's to say more can't come? But I can think of plenty of ways that more Aelita content can be fit into future stuff, but writing wise Chapter 12 and 13 felt like they were communicating "Aelita has put a lid on this stuff and Sorted It Out and her feelings on it aren't that complicated now". I could invent a way that it wouldn't be as bad, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just what it looks like and what the writing tells me it is. And regarding why some characters got their time to shine because it was their moment - Chapter 12 is sold to us in the beginning as the Aelita chapter, and then it's not, and she's a side character in her own chapter. I think that whole chapter warranted as much Aelita focus as the other events warranted focus on those characters. The fallout about the fall of Blakeory Co is obviously important in the story, but the degree of focus and care put into the Saki segments wasn't required to sell the fallout - it was required to develop Saki. 

 

I just think the entire twist was a mistake. In past versions, Eldest even outright says "Keta was not your father, he was in fact, your husband" as a direct quote (which was wisely removed later), because the whole "Aelita is Taelia but also they're not" thing has been inconsistent over the years. It's an intensely uncomfortable concept that no character ever addresses directly, and even when we're directly inside Aelita's mind, her mind never contains even a hint of discomfort about the concept or resentment to Keta or anything like that, because I think everyone involved in the story would've felt that same discomfort Aelita had if they wrote it, and thought "Ooooh, that's too heavy for this game". And it probably is too heavy for this game (it felt wrong as fuck when Reborn started suggesting certain things about Lin). But it's too dissonant to leave that heaviness out, but to leave the actual event in. It's weird to go directly into Aelita's mind and there's no intense discomfort at this specific concept, even in the past when Eldest outright referred to it (unless it's in an even older version), but it would be even weirder to include the intense discomfort. In other words, there is no good solution except to not do the twist itself.

 

Compare this to the Karma Files stuff, which is all good enough that you don't need to invent assumptions that protects the writing quality. You can just read it and go "This is good :)" and then it's good, because it's good. In some cases it's great. There's some confusing bits (Uhhh, shouldn't the Interceptor Effect actually be real? I genuinely can't think of a way for it to be false. Like Crescent says "I made it up", but logically it must be true), but compared to this kind of issue, they're all minor.

Edited August 23 by Dawn Oceana

[dudeguyman]

As for the Aelita thing, I think the rift is a fine conclusion to the arc: Aelita and Taelia accept each other as mother and daughter, and Aelita never calls herself "a monster that should have never existed" ever again. I don't think that that Keta is actually her husband from her previous life really hit her, at least not emotionally, until later when she started visiting the springs but that's all done off screen. And I don't think there's much of a doubt on her feelings being more complicated than she lets out: according to Venam, everyone in the task force is putting a strong front, and she's the only one without complicated personal matters going on at the moment. This part really does need to be expanded, but there's plenty of time for it. Saki got a lot of exposition because it was a "now or not until way into the postgame" deal.

 

As for Melia, M2 is a key part in understanding her character, imho, especially with Renegade MC insisting there's no fundamental difference between the two ( (Rot13) "Lbh unir n frevbhf vffhr jvgu nppbhagnovyvgl. Lbh arire gnxr erfcbafvovyvgl sbe nalguvat. Rira jvgu gur anzr, "Z2". Lbh pubfr vg gb nyvrangr lbhefrys sebz "Zryvn", orpnhfr lbh qvqa'g jnag gb gneavfu ure anzr, be fbzrguvat. Orpnhfr fjrrg by' Zryvn jbhyqa'g qb fbzrguvat fb ivyr, urvabhf, pehry. Ohg Zryvn jbhyq. Naq Zryvn unf.") With keeping the plan secret, it makes sense, since it does rely on the targets not knowing it: "we have to deepen our friendship or the world will burn or something" doesn't quite have the same vibe as simply saying: "Hey, let's hang out!" As for why she requested access to the Zeight in the first place, it's because events in the ruined timeline taught her just how important MC is, and pushed her to support them the best way that she can.

[comcart]

19 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said:

This is exactly the thing I don't intend to do though. If the canonical writing of something isn't good, then I don't want to replace it with stuff that I just made up.

Sigh, alright then man, think whatever you want. As I said, I was simply trying to share my thoughts, which could maybe expand your mind on the subject, since they are similar thoughts the majority of the player base has about what they think happened during Aelita's journey, and are just as valid as your own opinions on the twist. In regards to the "Too Speedy" dialogue, you saying "It would be annoying in fact if an option that was meant to express concern about Aelita cost you friendship points from a gameplay perspective." Is just... If a person is trying to avoid emotions they feel, sometimes they will be upset or annoyed by someone trying to push them into confronting it, or being worried about the subject in general, which is the point I was trying to make about Aelita's character, through simple analysis of what we know of her. I could be entirely wrong since I don't remember Aelita's follow-up dialogue, but that's the thing, we could BOTH be wrong about the MC or Dev's intentions with the dialogue. Which is what I've been trying to say.

As I've said multiple times, I concede that it sucks that we don't see that journey she has, and we're left to just assume things -- but you seem to particularly hate that fact about the game, which is fine, you can hate it, but most of the people who play the game ENGAGE in HCing and assumptions to fill in spots we haven't seen yet. The Devs even encourage it while exploring other characters and emotions, which is what I've been trying to say, once again. Before they come out with new chapters and Aelita gets the chance to expand on her character, we are left to assume things. That is how MOST fandoms for games work. Heck! Even Homestuck did that. During their large hiatus, hundreds and thousands of fans made headcanons and assumptions about what would happen with the characters, based on the writing of the webcomic. It's a thing! It's encouraged! And accepted by the majority, since most assumptions are based off of logical writing decisions the creators have previously made. You make it hard to talk with you about such things, if you dismiss it to go purely by the writing of the game, and assume that since it's not IN the game (potentially just not yet, that is a possibility), it is purely bad writing since you refuse to engage in the common assumptions the fandom makes while we wait for the Devs to give us more content -- since the game is unfinished. 

 

The reason I even said it would be too bulky and awkward to include Aelita memory dumping right now, is because most of Taelia and Vivian's memories cannot be all that important to the part of the game we're in currently, neither can the emotions she had during the journey. It's more likely she'd bring it up in a moment of weakness, when or if she ever breaks down that "strong front" all the raiding characters are putting on, and maybe admits she didn't bring up the things that made her uncomfortable to learn, or her conflicting feelings. That is, of course, if you're willing to engage in some reasonable speculation based on the way the devs write. Not to mention "Generally you can tell when there's some sort of subtext, but Aelita's dialogue never suggests any subtext of "Um I'm still fucked up by this", especially when she actually interacts with the Royers." This is at least partially false, because Aelita, in a group dialogue in the Nightmare Realms, right before Huey's Nightmare Realm specifically, pretends to be at a therapist appointment and admits that she still has identity issues to a Therapist, that's represented by HER. The dialogue goes as follows "Yeah, and I was just feeling kinda weird about it, you know, doc? I'm my own person, but sometimes I feel like I'm just... Not?" Therapist Aelita: "Yes, and how does that make you feel, Aelita?" Aelita: "Not too good... I wonder if I love Sheridan because it's my home, or if it's because Taelia loved it. Are my emotions truly mine, or were they built off Taelia's memories? Sometimes I get really mad at Vivian for putting me through all of this. But I have to remember that was not her intention... And as a result, I've met so many cool people in my life. It's all so very confusing... What do you have to say about that doc?" And then the doctor glitches out, and the group investigation ends. ALL of this hints at a LARGER subtext of Aelita most DEFINITELY still being messed up, but dealing with such things INTERNALLY, or putting up a front when around her closest friends -- as sort of... Metaphorically hinted at through the therapist being herself, and nobody else speaking to Aelita, and her not speaking to anyone except herself and the therapist. (Which yeah, could also be for comedic effect, but if we actually engage with this interaction seriously...)

 

The simple character analysis you can make based off of this one bit of dialogue you can miss -- which, btw, doesn't lessen its validity towards Aelita's issues, there's so much optional dialogue in this game that still affects the characters -- alone implies SO much about Aelita's character, and the potential feelings she has buried, but doesn't want to, or hasn't had the CHANCE to talk about yet. Because Aelita came back to us right as we had to rescue our friends from a near-death experience, then the only chance she had to talk about the memories she received was when she was sharing important things about the lore of the world in front of everyone. All of that then spurs us onto a quest to retrieve important items, and we still have no time to talk to her before we get launched into the whole thing with the Puppetmaster and the nightmare realms. I didn't know where to put this in, but Chapter 12 still gets to be Aelita-centric too, and honestly, even though the Doomed Timeline part takes away a big chunk of Aelita-focused time and gives it to Melia + the Interceptor, it shows us why Aelita and her past lives are SO important to the story. Without Vivian's sacrifice, we wouldn't have the future, and we wouldn't have Aelita, and by the end, we get the grand finish to that Arc with Rift-Aelita severing the connection - whether literally or metaphorically - between her, and Vivian/Taelia, before going off on a journey to discover herself. It comes back full circle to be about her once again. The game has to do a big balancing act with letting each of their many characters have development and expansion, and honestly? They've done a pretty damn good part overall, by making even small moments ((Aelita's therapy moment in the Nightmare Realms)) have big meaning for the characters. All the character arcs have to be intertwined somehow, or there'd be stretches of the game solely devoted to nothing but one character, so yes, even though Melia's moment took away time from Aelita, it still came back around to be about her! And this was in a part of the game, where we had like... Almost 10 characters we had to focus on/learn about. And that trend continued through Vague Clarity and .KF.

You can hate twist as much as you want, but the things I've been trying to share with you, through character analysis and logical assumptions, based off what the community agrees on and the devs have encouraged, are also incredibly valid, and are likely the exact reasons why most people LIKE the twist, and Aelita as a character. THAT is what I have been trying to share with you so you could consider there was more to the writing of Aelita than it seemed. Not to mention, what I'm about to say may be an assumption, but based on what you said about the Renegade route, then who's to say the Devs won't give us more Aelita content there? You could, at the very least, give them that benefit of the doubt and engage with the game in a fun, creative manner by putting out the things you think might've happened to Aelita during that journey, instead of simply putting down the game because it's not been explored, yet.

[Dawn Oceana]

Headcanon is headcanon. It can be very good headcanon, it can be well thought out, it can make perfect sense, but it's still headcanon until it's in the game. You have posted a lot of headcanon that makes sense, but it remains headcanon. Future installments could include more Aelita content related to this, but I also said they could as well. I don't want to say "This headcanon would make the game better and make more sense, and it could be valid depending on how you interpret lines in the game", and then act as though the headcanon is canon. I'm only interested in the actual canon. 

 

This is the follow up dialogue, for the record.

 

 

Generally in the game, for just about every friendship interaction, the player's given the choice to be basically "more paragon" or "more renegade", and sometimes there's a third thing, but the bottom line is the choices are written in almost every encounter so that there's at least one for good characters and at least one for evil characters. Given that the one for the good character is obvious in this scene, "too speedy" is kind of left as being the one for the evil character, and Aelita's reaction makes the most sense in light of that. While a good quality headcanon could patch the disconnect here, I don't believe it was the actual intention at the point this was written, which is the thing I care about.

 

If some writing is not in the game, but was planned to be in the game later, then I'd go "Oh, okay, well then that's valid foreshadowing". But if some writing shows up in the game but was never planned, it's more like a retcon, and it interests me a little bit less. 

 

I never actually saw the therapist portion. It's very good evidence that "the issue is not totally resolved for Aelita", which is good, and it's evidence that Jan is thinking about what things mean for the character, which is good, but what I'm not seeing is anything that even comes close to addressing my central squick on the issue, which is "Keta adopted and raised his wife", or literally any feelings Aelita has about that concept, even the slightest hint of discomfort. All of this stuff can be acknowleged and developed and etc, and that's all good, and I think almost every part of it could be expanded on greatly and weaved into Aelita's character more clearly and in creative ways in future instalments and I'd say "That's good writing", but none of it would address my central issue with it unless it acknowledges the fundamental weirdness of Keta's situation and Aelita's relationship to him, and until that's addressed, then my central issue with it is not. This is the big thing for me. Nothing else comes close..

 

But regarding the Aelita-centricitiy of Chapter 12, in v13 Aelita a) does not drive the action of the chapter based on her own actions. Rather, people react to her and say she needs to do things and she tags along as a participating audience member, b) is pushed to the side emotionally to focus on Melia's emotions, particularly about solving a Trolley Problem, c) given infinitely less screen time, and her emotional arc is clearly treated as the primary focus of the chapter, and the Aelita reveals as secondary. Even Vivian's suicide is about Melia's emotional arc, and then she has a second one about her relationship to the Stormchasers in the first place. I would like Chapter 12 more if it was more Aelita-centric, because I like Aelita a lot more than Melia. Melia drives the story of that arc with her own actions and choices and motives. She chooses to do things related to her problems. Aelita stands there and watches people solve problems about her, comments on Melia's arc which becomes the new focus, and then gets blipped out of reality, and then when she gets back everyone else has solved her problems, except there was something she didn't get told so she Rifts Out once she gets told it so people have to solve her problems again. This chapter is not Aelita-centric. Aelita is a backdrop. (This is one of the reasons Chapter 12 has been my least favourite.)

 

Rejuvenation is a game where the writing used to be much worse, and now it's much (much, much) better. But even in it's much improved state, this lingering issue about Keta and Aelita's feelings towards him being seemingly untouched by this, even in a scene that focuses on her private feelings, is still present, and I wouldn't even have a clue on what should be done with it in the game. In order to acknowledge how much better the game is now, it requires acknowledging that what came before was not so good, and some parts are still not so good.

 

This should probably be my last reply because you seem to be getting a lot more annoyed by this than I am.

[comcart]

1 hour ago, Dawn Oceana said:

This should probably be my last reply because you seem to be getting a lot more annoyed by this than I am.

I'm not going to go on another long, rambling diatribe, despite the points part of me wishes to make, because I feel like firstly, we are just... Very fundamentally different in our viewpoints on this. I've come to understand your position more, and while I disagree with parts, that's more simply just because of how I view the game, the writing, and other such personal things. I will concede and thank you for finally bringing that bit of dialogue I missed from the interaction to my attention, and say while I'm disappointed they didn't take the writing in the direction I had been making a point out of, I agree with you that it does stick to the dialogue gameplay they've set for Renegade and Paragon and make sense in that regard. Secondly, I apologize sincerely if I came off like I was annoyed, or upset. As our responses continued, I read your comments as being more... Rude? Or condescending - which is entirely my fault if that wasn't your intended tone! - and adjusted mine in response. You really chose your profile pic well with Erin, I got mixed vibes from her when she first appeared as well xD. I'm somewhere on the spectrum, and I've definitely been known to have problems with tone, especially when it comes to things I'm so passionate about, so I really do apologize for coming off as annoyed or mean!!! I just... Really like Aelita's character, and this game in general SKGHSDHFSDF--

Thirdly, slightly unrelated, I'm happy I could bring that Aelita therapy portion to your attention as well! It does a lot to help her character in little bursts, before the Devs -- maybe -- explore her more in upcoming chapters. I could comment further, but I'm trying to keep this short, and not incite further miscommunication tone-wise, especially since I have... Already done that. Either way, I think you're probably right that these should be our last responses, and again I'm sorry if I potentially made this character discussion unfun for you -- I also completely sidetracked this post from its original subject of Melia, n considering your thoughts on Chapter 12, I think that's kinda ironic ngl, but yeah, I'm sorry for that too AHDGKJSDFHSD-- Uh... It was still sort of nice talking with someone who cares as much about the writing of the game, the characters, and other stuff as I do, even if we had such different opinions on certain things...!! I hope you have fun talking more with others in the future :) /gen