Dawn Oceana Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 (edited) Humour me. "Madame X" is obviously the big ticket Da Mystery of the game, because her face is hidden from us and she's called Madame X, which is as "My name is a secret it's hidden woooooooooo" spooky name as it gets. This is despite the fact that actually, very rarely do any of the characters even care about who Madame X is under the mask, and there's even more pressing concerns like "What is Team Xen even trying to DO". Frankly, Madame X isn't even the most interesting character (I actually really dislike her first appearance lol), but even despite this she's STILL the big ticket mystery of the game. Despite this, there's a few things that we do know for sure about her. And I'm going to lead with something that some people try to find ways around, but I think there's just absolutely no way around it. Madame X is a Theolia sibling. Period. I do think we know this for sure. Madame X owns Blacksteeple Castle and an Yveltal. She addresses a mysterious "father" in Blacksteeple castle if her Yveltal loses. Melanie is basically Melia. She calls the same Yveltal, in Blacksteeple castle, "father". It's possible to say "Madame X was just referring to a completely different father", but like, no she wasn't. Let's be real. Can we be real here? I invoke the sacred right of a theorizer to say "Come on, man". Come on, man. This isn't the only evidence towards Madame X being a Theolia. She hates Indriad, as we see in literally the first 10 minutes of the game. She likes Maria and wants her to be safe - but can't save her... yet. So she tells her to be safe and wait. Where does her personal investment in those two come from if she's not one of the Theolia siblings? Madame X feels a mysterious "bond" with Melia, that allowed her to know deep down Melia wasn't really dead. Madame X mysteriously quoted Erin, exactly, to Maria. Erin said the "Don't you dare lose hope" lines to Maria, and the only people around to hear it were the Theolia siblings, Indriad, Anathea, annnnd... the Gardevoir I think. Except Alice and Allen and Maria were unconscious at the time, and also I think Alice and Allen had already been tossed into gen 2. So in reality, only FIVE people in ALL of Rejuvenation could've been reasonably said to have heard it. Madame X has a hatred of imprisonment, like on a visceral level. Madame X has an Yveltal in the first place. But Yveltal is Indriad, or at least Indriad is made up of an Yveltal and a Karma program stuffed together. Madame X must wear her armour. She told us this on the Pyramid. She was trying to trick us and pretend to be weak, but the part about wearing her armour was in the Important Yellow Text For When Things Are Really Really Important. We can assume it's true. Nastasia joined Team Xen because she was looking for her friend, which we know is Maria, and there's some implication I think of having even found her? Madame X basically believes existence is a cycle of suffering, which proves that Team Xen is actually a Buddhist Terrorist Cult who's simply following the Four Noble Truths but they replaced the Fourth one about "following the noble eightfold path" with "Just kill everyone until existence gets it right and stops being suffering". Madame X has a real investment in making history follow a certain path, and the power to do that because she has a Mysterious Artifact That Does it... that Melanie also has by the btw. Back in the Kugearen era, she saves Kanon from death, and forces the Interceptor to rewind their death to get it right. Here's something interesting. Madame X, in Chapter 12, is aware the Interceptor is the Interceptor. But she is not aware in Kugearen. Her speech is all about "What the fuck is so special about you?", and she implies strongly that this is something she's done over and over again. I have a suspicion she's basically savescumming until Team Xen wins using Time Travel, and that's necessary because she has to compete against Spacea and Tiempa trying to do the same thing to force the Interceptor onto a certain path Are we familiar with all of that? Good. Because here's something I've brought up before but I don't think people have really properly thought about, and I think it's the biggest clue to getting it right. Madame X made Clear, Kieran, and the Interceptor check up on Talon and make sure he's okay. Nobody ever really talks about this or thinks about it! And yet, isn't this the most out of character shit we've seen from Madame X ever? We know, because we can see in the future segments, that Madame X's plan is to kill everyone everywhere. Ren admits to M2 in his timeline that "Yeah maybe we'll all die but then we'll be reborn". The only people she's ever shown even an ounce of compassion for are Maria, and Pirate Valarie, and that was apparently just a visceral response to seeing people tied up. Everyone else she believes in Murder Forever. She was even disgusted by Melia reversing Melanie's corruption. So why does she have a soft spot for Talon? You know what else? Talon doesn't exist in previous versions of the game except as a totally offscreen character. That's actually an in universe fact. Talon becomes aware of it after Karma gets to him. So there can't even be an actual connection between Madame X and Talon that we could've seen in any of the actual timelines we've actually seen. And Clear actually gets pissed off about this. She basically says she can't understand why "The Master" - who I think by context with Clear, is clearly Madame X - is so invested in Talon. Madame X is well aware that Karma has infected Talon, so it's not about trying to find out about that. Clear becomes aware of it immediately. Clear suggests it's basically out of pure concern for Talon's welfare. Why? The fact is: Madame X, in this timeline, has never ever ever had the opportunity to know Talon ever, and it is in fact impossible since Talon confirms he didn't exist in previous iterations of Aevium. Despite this, Madame X not only knows about Talon, but cares about him? Well, you can only conclude one thing. Madame X isn't from this universe/timeline. I'm actually going to say she's from a fully parallel universe. Huh. Now wouldn't that be random? No, it wouldn't. I've said this before, but think about how Kieran and Clear are Xara and Jean, but from a parallel universe and as robots. Isn't that random? The answer is: No, it's actually vital and probably solves everything. Let's call this other universe the KCEverse, because Kieran, Clear, and Eden are from that universe... but they're not. In fact, neither Kieran, Clear, or Eden ever set foot in the KCEverse. Ever. They were built by somebody FROM the KCEverse. And they're quite clear that they're meant to be versions of the KCEverse's Xara and Jean. Let's call the person who escaped from the destroyed KCEverse The Escapee. Why? What's the point of that? I'm gonna answer that question with a question. What's the point of Madame X caring so much about Talon? Is there any connection between Talon, Xara, and Jean? We're told that the KCEverse was different, but the people were identical. That means that The Escapee (and Eden, for that matter) have versions of themselves in the universe we play. I've posted before about there probably being a big moonbase connection between Kieran and Clear and Variya and etc, but I kind of ended up dodging the ultimate question of who Madame X was, so I think now I can just come to a safe and definite conclusion - Madame X is the Escapee, who is the KCEverse's Erin. Madame X has to be a Theolia sibling. Madame X has to have a connection to the thing Erin explicitly said to Maria. Madame X hates Indriad. Madame X hates imprisonment - and you can infer from that she probably was imprisoned at some point, like, oh, I dunno, Erin? Erin hates Indriad to the point of calling herself The Devil. Got that? No? Let's get into it more deeply. Which of the Theolia siblings lived in Grand Dream City? Erin. Which of the Theolias could've had a chance to know and get attached to Xara, Jean, and Talon enough to care about them that much? Erin. Which of the Theolias could be smart enough to even conceive of getting Kieran, Clear and Eden built? Erin. And before anyone says "Saki could build them", not only is that subject to "Come on, man", it's been debunked by Zumi. Why would Madame X say exactly the same thing to Maria twice? Because they were two different versions of Erin saying it, one not being aware the other said it. Need more proof? When did Erin even debut in the games? 2017 was the release of V9, The City of Mystery. When has Madame X's identity been locked in from? Huh. What an odd coincidence! It's also 2017! Let's quote Zumi. Quote Her identity is something that's been planned for years. And I really mean YEARS; the earliest logs of my conversation about her identity that I can find are from 2017! That's all I really can say on the matter tho Huh! Why only 2017? Now of course, it could be "Because everywhere else we spoke about it was on a completely different platform that doesn't have logs available"... but this sounds like Zumi went to some effort to confirm the date, and came up with 2017 in the end. See, 2017 is three years after Rejuvenation V1 first came out. It does imply that Madame X didn't have a real identity in those past versions (I believe it honestly). So, think about it - if she didn't, and you know you need a Big Reveal, what kind of Big Reveal for her identity might you come up with? How about "Melia's sister"? Oh, but you can't do that until you introduce a sister for Melia... and so you introduce Erin. Need more proof? Madame X must be a Theolia sibling, and yet people use the part where she said "My mother died trying to protect me" to prove that she wasn't - because Anathea definitely didn't die that way. But that was just the Anathea of the main universe. If Madame X is the escapee, then the fact that the main universe's Anathea died a different way wouldn't matter. There's another big objection. There's nobody that Erin hates more than Indriad, and yet when she loses, she says "Father, I have lost..." which seems to prove she still respects and answers to Indriad, right? No. Madame X still hates Indriad. She makes it clear in the literal first 10 minutes of the game. In fact, she makes it clear she's seen the same events with Maria happen over and over and over. In fact, is there anyone we're aware of that Madame X hates more than Indriad? Madame X has to be a Theolia sibling, but her memory of her mother's death doesn't match up with what we saw of Anathea's death at all. The conclusion is that she witnessed a totally different death than we did (or became aware of a different one), so she must be from another universe. I feel like that's just an unavoidable conclusion. I mean, the very first Maria and Indriad we meet are from a totally different world, because it's post Storm-9 but the Chrysalis manor is still there and hasn't been turned into the Chrisola Hotel yet (Notice how those two places have such similar names and tilesets and locations.) But then again, it may also be a weird pocket dimension, so, not necessarily conclusive. Need more proof? Let's talk about The Escapee. Is there anything else we can know about them? Yes. We found their house. Remember the Kugearen shack? The one with the Rift Matter journal? Let's take a look at it again. One of the things that stands out the most here are the weird, defaced effigies of Anju and Nymiera, but not Vivian. I've seen it suggested that Nymiera was the owner of this house, which honestly can make sense, because otherwise who made those effigies of the Aevium Fighters? Check that out on the blackboards on the house - we have the Garufa logo, and we have the Archetype drawn up. We also have a map of future Aevium, meaning that without a doubt, this house belongs to a Time Traveller. Then there's a journal, left deliberately for someone to find, to give them important information - which is really just a way to get them to do what the journal owner wants. Now, who, exactly, do we know of that constantly monitors this time period to try to get The Interceptor and their allies to do things they want? Spacea, Tiempa, and... umm... I'm forgetting someone... oh yeah, Madame X. By the way, interesting note: The journal owner speculates about whether it's even worth un-rifting Pokemon. I wonder who'd think of something like that? The presence of the angrily stabbed up Aevium Fighter effigies is interesting, but there's something in this house that's much, much, much more mysterious and important. There's a clue in here that's so big that you can't even press A on it, because if it had to offer any kind of description, it would give too much away. Look in the bottom left. Oh, that's odd. We have three sets of... odd, metallic bodies with empty faces, how interesting. And then spread around near them, on the table and on the table next to it, tools that indicate someone working on or building something. Huh. Where else are there three robots built by a mysterious traveller who seems to know everything important? What you can see on the table there are Kieran, Clear, and Eden. This house belonged to The Escapee. There's no doubt about it to me. It was in this house that Kieran, Clear and Eden were built. They were built by someone who understands the Archetype, knows about Garufa Inc, knows about the future, and was subtly manipulating the person they clearly wanted to come into the house to do things in exactly the way they wanted. There's another argument you could make though. Even if this is The Escapee's house, how do we know that The Escapee is Madame X? Kieran and Clear have always been cagey about whether they're part of Team Xen, but they haven't been cagey about answering to Madame X. They're clear on that. Clear calls her "The Master". Is there some second person out there who built Kieran, Clear and Eden but is not their master, and basically bequeathed them to Madame X instead? I'm gonna invoke my right to say "Come on, man." Need more proof? Well you should, because I actually haven't ruled something out - Madame X being either Maria or Melia. So let me address the Maria part - Nastasia joined Team Xen to find Maria. It sounds like recently she may have gotten closer than ever to finding Maria. Why would she need to find Maria if Maria is Madame X? On the one hand, it would be a really easy way to explain why Nastasia has so much trust in Madame X specifically, and it's always been a popular theory with good reason. It's very hard to discount. But does Maria fit the role of The Escapee? Would Maria have a weird, irrational attachment to Talon, Xara, and Jean, and whoever Eden was? Is Maria known for being Smart As Fuck? For hating Indriad more than anyone else? Let's not forget that in the beginning, Madame X says "How long are you going to torment this girl?" or something like that - she definitely refers to Maria as "this girl", as someone separate from herself. But the Maria theory is strong, and I can't really pretend it's not - but I also can't pretend it's nearly as strong as the Erin theory. But Melia's a different story. Melia was meant to go to Grand Dream City - a parallel Melia could've known Xara, Jean, and Talon. Except... we know what an evil Melia looks like, and it doesn't look like Madame X. Madame X is more like an E2 instead of an M2. And Melia isn't stupid, but I think we can confidently rule out her becoming an engineering genius because she told us outright how bad she is at math. Besides, there's a much more important question: Did Melia even exist in the KCEverse? The Melia part of the post Melia's identity isn't hard to solve. Actually, we know that she has to be the previous host of the Zygarde Entity who had the Zygarde part ripped out to be used as a capture device for Maria's soul after Maria died so that the Archetype and the Archetype user wouldn't be completely lost. Simple really! Let's go over the facts. Melia is Maria. Melia is NOT Maria. Melia asserts BOTH of these facts. At the end of Chapter 15, Melia was saying "Somehow I think I've always known I was Maria", and then that something inside of her was telling her "I am not Maria", like, literally in the same cutscene, right next to each other, she says both of these things. Is she stupid? The answer instead has to be "Both of these things have to be true". So how can you be Maria without being Maria? I'll get to that. Melia is 75 years old. Unlike the other Theolias, Melia's body can't handle the Archetype. She's the only one who can't. In fact, Maria can handle it, and doesn't get Genesis Syndrome. Melia can't handle it, and does get Genesis Syndrome. What age would Erin, Alice and Allen show if you threw them in the Garufa machine? Well, the Calamity happened when Maria was like, what, 5? 8? Relative to the present day in Aevium, it was about... 43-ish years ago or something? No matter what math you do, Melia's actual age makes her much older than any of the Theolia siblings. Even if every single year that Erin, Alice and Allen were in the Gen 2 world counted on the Garufa machine, they'd only get to maybe 59 at best. Hold up a sec though! I've been talking like there's four Theolia siblings, but there's actually a fifth - Zetta. Loosely, anyway. He presents himself like he's Melia's Secret Big Brother, but the most interesting thing about him is - like I've pointed out elsewhere - the New Game+ chessboard calls him The Descendant of Zed. Now, that Solosis's ass isn't descended from anyone called Zed, he's descended from Dittos and other Reuniclus-line Pokemon. So the way in which he's the descendant of Zed musn't come from him, but Melia. It's Melia who's the descendant of Zed. Great. Now who's Zed? There are absolutely no clues, whatsoever, outside of the name. But "Zed" is just how British English pronounces the letter "Z". And "Zetta" is just another variation on the letter "Z", but for people who've played TWEWY, which by the way, Zumi has confirmed Jan has played that if the trainer quotes in GDC didn't tip you off. You know what else is associated with the letter Z? Zygarde. Since Zetta is just a fucked up Solosis, that Solosis cannot be descended from Zed. The one descended from Zed is Melia. That means Melia is descended from the original Zygarde host. In fact, I think Melia was in some way an entity that was meant to be the Zygarde host, and had the Zygarde pulled out, so they could be a Maria host. I can't actually go into all of my reasoning here. But let me ask you this: Is Indriad Yveltal? Here are the two answers. Yes. He's the Yveltal. He had an Yveltal shoved into him. He was made to host the Yveltal. Melanie even calls the Yveltal father. No. He's not the Yveltal. He's just the thing that hosts the Yveltal. The Yveltal was the thing that was shoved into him. Even though he's still connected to the Yveltal and it's how he spies, and the Yveltal can be addressed as father. Indriad is actually the thing that's inside Angie that made her a "Theolia" in the first place, the thing that starts going "Essence", and he was somehow ripped out of the Yveltal. Both of these things are true. In fact, it's the only mechanism in the game by which both of these things can be true. Is Melia Maria? Yes. She has Maria's memories. She remembers Anathea talking to them. She says "Somehow I've always known I was Maria". She is absolutely Maria. No. She says "I am not Maria". She's just 'hosting' a captive Maria spirit, whereas previously she'd have hosted a Zygarde instead, and "been" the Zygarde, now she's 'hosting' Maria, which is why she can't handle the Archetype. Both of these things are true. Outside of being a host, what other way is there in the game for both of these things to be true? Oh, and by the way. Yveltal being liberated from Indriad is how Madame X can call it "Father" without a sense of complete shame. I just figured that out then. As a result - it's not clear that Melia would even be Melia in the KCEverse at all! Think about this. Why is it that Madame X apparently has a soft spot for people from Grand Dream City... but none at all for Melia? The moment she sees Melia in Blacksteeple, she tries to kill her. I mean, I kind of think that moment is just stupid, but when you all try to escape, she sends you all flying, and you're all going to literally die if Nim doesn't save the day. And yet Madame X of all people has sentimental feelings about Talon? How does that make sense? It's easy. KCEverse doesn't have a Melia. KCEverse Erin, The Escapee, did not grow up with a Melia. How on earth she got to Grand Dream from 43 years in the past is another question (one with many answers by the way, you think she couldn't become a teacher at Axis High if necessary?), but there's no doubt that she has no real sentimental attachments to Melia. But she does to Maria, and we know that for a fact. It's because Melia is just a vehicle to get to Maria. She doesn't see Melia as her sister at all because she knows what Melia actually is in the first place! And then let me ask you another question - why does Madame X's armour make her weaker? It's kind of interesting how obviously it's themed after that Gardevoir Erin grew up with, but what kind of power could a human have without the armour? Well, given that she's a Theolia sibling, it obviously has to have something to do with The Archetype. I basically buy the theory that it prevents Madame X from overlapping. And if she can be overlapped, it's because she's from outside of this timeline/universe, and so her duplicate must still be out there. And as far as I'm concerned, that rules out Maria, leaving in only Melia and Erin. And like it just is Erin. Come on. TL;DR Madame X is Erin, Melia is a weird Zygarde host that got made to host Maria instead. Edited December 1 by Dawn Oceana 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply-Ladon Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 I'm still in chapter 6 and I didn't know the story was so deep someone can spend this much time trying to explain the origin of one character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeguyman Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 But did she actually try to kill Melia at Blacksteeple? She knows Melia has the archetype, and that the archetype activates when the host dies, and if she really really wanted Melia dead, she should have just used the time crystal to kill her, like she did with Nancy. If anything, Melia is more worthy of spending the time crystal on than Nancy. If anything, that Madam X went that far just to kill Nancy, it means that she wants to be resented by the Interceptor, and she allowed Aelita to be born for the Interceptor to have a powerful ally (Clear said that "she hit the wrong target with Yveltal", but who's buying it? Especially from a compulsive liar like Clear). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyphre Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 I believe there is quite a lot of wishful thinking and confirmation bias in here and some things that simply were not the case, i might do a more detailed answer when i will be less sleepy and remember more. Just gonna put two points out for now. 6 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: When did Erin even debut in the games? 2017 was the release of V9, The City of Mystery. When has Madame X's identity been locked in from? Huh. What an odd coincidence! It's also 2017! Let's quote Zumi. I might remember the date wrong, but wasnt 2017 also development of Where Love Lies? I don't remember exact year so correct me if i'm wrong. And if i remember it right could easily point at my favorite guess at Madame X identity. 6 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: Great. Now who's Zed? There are absolutely no clues, whatsoever, outside of the name. But "Zed" is just how British English pronounces the letter "Z". And "Zetta" is just another variation on the letter "Z", but for people who've played TWEWY, which by the way, Zumi has confirmed Jan has played that if the trainer quotes in GDC didn't tip you off. You know what else is associated with the letter Z? Zygarde. I just don't even i don't i cannot... Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeguyman Posted December 1 Share Posted December 1 By the way, saying that Melia can't possibly have built Clear and Kieran because she can't possibly become a good engineer is weak: Paragon Melia went from n00b to 1337 h4x0r in a few months inside the Zeight. But there is a much more solid evidence for Melia not being Madam X: Madam X, at first, didn't recognize the MC. While that might be attributed to the MC appearing in different ways to different people, there's no way Malia wouldn't instantly figure out who that eerily quiet person glued to Melia's back is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Oceana Posted December 1 Author Share Posted December 1 (edited) 5 hours ago, Cyphre said: I might remember the date wrong, but wasnt 2017 also development of Where Love Lies? I don't remember exact year so correct me if i'm wrong. And if i remember it right could easily point at my favorite guess at Madame X identity. The problem is I don't think there's any option other than Madame X being a Theolia of some kind. If she's Nora, then Nora had to get Angiefied somehow. It's possible to poke holes in the "She must be a Theolia" thing by going: "Just because Melanie called on a 'Father' that appeared to be an Yveltal, which is confirmed to be Indriad in some way, doesn't mean that Madame X is referring to the same 'Father' when she gives her quote." "Madame X having an interest in Maria and being able to quote the exact line that Erin said to Maria has actually nothing to do with any personal connection to the two of them at the time that the line was first said." "Madame X's bond with Melia is something as yet completely unknown and nothing to do with any personal relationsihp to any part of Melia." These are all logically valid and can't actually be refuted decisively. I just don't think they pass the sniff test. From a writing perspective, Melanie's appearance seems like it has to be telling us something about Madame X and Melia for that matter. The clear callbacks to Madame X's fight are just too much to ignore. Likewise, 2 and 3 are possible, but like... the same thing applies. I invoke "Come on, man". I wouldn't if it wasn't for Chapter 12 and the Melanie thing, but I think that makes it unavoidable. As for the Zed thing, if the piece is actually Zetta, then Zed must be plot important enough to warrant mentioning and come down to Zetta through Melia. If it's actually possible to know anything about Zed, we can only know it through the name and vague plot relevance. Zygarde is the only thing I can come up with. Someone else has pointed out though that the description of the Zed piece much better describes Eizen - except for my part, it would mean 1) Zetta is weirdly missing despite Eden and Sharon being present on the Black/World Shatterer side of the board, and 2) What makes Eizen "defiled" the way Eden is - or the way Zetta could be? It's hard to even visually make out what the piece is, but it looks like it's broken off to me. Naturally, if it's Eizen, the logic of Melia being at all related to potential Zygarde hosts, is a complete waste of time. 3 hours ago, dudeguyman said: By the way, saying that Melia can't possibly have built Clear and Kieran because she can't possibly become a good engineer is weak: Paragon Melia went from n00b to 1337 h4x0r in a few months inside the Zeight. But there is a much more solid evidence for Melia not being Madam X: Madam X, at first, didn't recognize the MC. While that might be attributed to the MC appearing in different ways to different people, there's no way Malia wouldn't instantly figure out who that eerily quiet person glued to Melia's back is. If Madame X is The Escapee, then she couldn't recognize The Interceptor no matter what, because she's from a different universe. Did this universe even have a Calamity? Would the A-gang have made it like 40 years into the future as like 18 year olds for Madame X to meet them all? Something else that was pointed out to me is that Maria actually does have genius feats, because she was doing Advanced Calculus at whatever age she was in Kugearen. But all the same, being a Leet Haxor is probably not enough to build KCE. 6 hours ago, dudeguyman said: But did she actually try to kill Melia at Blacksteeple? She knows Melia has the archetype, and that the archetype activates when the host dies, and if she really really wanted Melia dead, she should have just used the time crystal to kill her, like she did with Nancy. If anything, Melia is more worthy of spending the time crystal on than Nancy. I mean. Yeah, she did try. It doesn't make sense as far as we can tell, but it happened. Most things about Blacksteeple don't make any sense. That whole sequence after Madame X arrives is responsible for like half of them. Madame X could've easily been the one to save Melia instead of Nim, and then she didn't. They were actually going to die until Nim saved them. Either Madame X just needs Melia's body (plausible!), or it was just stupid. I don't think the Archetype was going to activate there... and I vaguely recall some suggestions that some preconditions had to be met before the Archetype could activate to save Melia at all, and I forget what they were or where this was even suggested, but why would Madame X want to fight against a freshly Arceused-Up Melia when that would make it possible for her to lose at all? The main thing that sequence says to me, that you can actually take away from it, is "Madame X doesn't care about Melia on a personal level", because overall it just doesn't make sense, but I think you can at least get that from it. Edited December 1 by Dawn Oceana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyphre Posted December 2 Share Posted December 2 19 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: Madame X is a Theolia sibling. Period. I do think we know this for sure. Madame X owns Blacksteeple Castle and an Yveltal. She addresses a mysterious "father" in Blacksteeple castle if her Yveltal loses. Melanie is basically Melia. She calls the same Yveltal, in Blacksteeple castle, "father". It's possible to say "Madame X was just referring to a completely different father", but like, no she wasn't. Let's be real. Can we be real here? I invoke the sacred right of a theorizer to say "Come on, man". Come on, man. I don't remember exactly but saying she owns Blacksteeple is a bit much, didn't Xen just squat there? Also again, she says "Father, i have lost...". If i remember right Geara (i assume it was him too) and Angie weren't aware of the Indriadification of themselves, it just negatively affected them. Assuming for a second Erin or Melia was Madame X, i cannot imagine any world where they would say "Fater, i have lost..." like they failed Indriad and they are ashamed and regret it, with possession or without. So no, i don't think there is any degree of real in that. 19 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: This isn't the only evidence towards Madame X being a Theolia. She hates Indriad, as we see in literally the first 10 minutes of the game. She likes Maria and wants her to be safe - but can't save her... yet. So she tells her to be safe and wait. Where does her personal investment in those two come from if she's not one of the Theolia siblings? I believe "hates Theolia" based on a single "How many times are you willing to put her through this!?" is a bit of a wishful thinking, but i would also like to present an option where she refers to Karma or even simply the player. 19 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: Madame X has a real investment in making history follow a certain path, and the power to do that because she has a Mysterious Artifact That Does it... that Melanie also has by the btw. Back in the Kugearen era, she saves Kanon from death, and forces the Interceptor to rewind their death to get it right. Except she doesn't give a single shit about Kanon (which would be weird for Erin or Melia) and is doing it only so the history path would stay a certain way and the whole nuking Kugearen isn't in the cards. 19 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: And Clear actually gets pissed off about this. She basically says she can't understand why "The Master" - who I think by context with Clear, is clearly Madame X First of all it was made EXTREMELY contextually clear that Madame X is not their Master in any capacity and they are just working together temporarily. So any further speculations on Clear and Kieran being built by theolia siblings are built on false foundation. Yes, there is a different person than Madame X that built them. It's pretty much a fact. Second, as was established, Madame X is very interested in keeping history a certain way. So to me it seems like she is confused by his appearace and is watching him to make sure he doesn't screw up anything, sort of like with MC. 19 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: Madame X must be a Theolia sibling, and yet people use the part where she said "My mother died trying to protect me" to prove that she wasn't - because Anathea definitely didn't die that way. But that was just the Anathea of the main universe. If Madame X is the escapee, then the fact that the main universe's Anathea died a different way wouldn't matter. This is all pure speculation, i believe it's more reasonable from writing perspective that it's foreshadowing and a clue to her identity rather than some extremely poor and misleading wording. Those words have been there for a LONG time and never were fixed or removed, it is much more likely that they have actual meaning in this version of the world and don't refer for random parallel world we don't know about. It would be disgustingly horrible writing and false Chekhov's gun and i have slightly more faith in Jan's writing abilities. So this phrase points either at Marianette or Nora, either works. 20 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: One of the things that stands out the most here are the weird, defaced effigies of Anju and Nymiera, but not Vivian. Two options. First, Vivian actually stands at one end of the pokemon arena, implying she was next and owner just didn't get to it yet. Second, it's indeed possible that the owner readily defaced Nymiera and Anju, but couldn't bring him/herself to do it with Vivian. There is one person that comes to mind, but it's a stretch and wishful thinking on my part. 20 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: Melia is 75 years old. No, it specifically said "existential age". Whether it means her soul age meaning Maria/Marianette hopped into her, or she was just being reborn in similar fashion to Aelita, it's very clearly not literal age. Also this is the "Descendant of Zed" one, i specifically went to character files for Zetta and pretty sure he doesn't look like this from any angle. I might be wrong here but i don't see it. Spoiler So overall i personally didn't see a single confirmation to anything that wasn't said before, Erin is still a decently strong option but it got a lot of holes and in no possible way definitive. Just as other candidates. I'm afraid we will just have to wait for the next version, we have long reached the limit of what can be deduced about Madame X without going into wild unsubstantiated conspiracies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Oceana Posted December 2 Author Share Posted December 2 22 minutes ago, Cyphre said: I don't remember exactly but saying she owns Blacksteeple is a bit much, didn't Xen just squat there? Also again, she says "Father, i have lost...". If i remember right Geara (i assume it was him too) and Angie weren't aware of the Indriadification of themselves, it just negatively affected them. Assuming for a second Erin or Melia was Madame X, i cannot imagine any world where they would say "Fater, i have lost..." like they failed Indriad and they are ashamed and regret it, with possession or without. So no, i don't think there is any degree of real in that. I believe "hates Theolia" based on a single "How many times are you willing to put her through this!?" is a bit of a wishful thinking, but i would also like to present an option where she refers to Karma or even simply the player. The mysteriousness of why any of the Theolia siblings would be in such a powerful position but still call out to Indriad like that has been one of the key sticking points for a Theolia theory of Madame X in the first place. While you have an alternative explanation for what Madame X was talking about in the intro, I think from just a writing perspective, we're not meant to ignore the connection between when Erin was furious at Indriad at the Library and when she calls out Indriad in the weird intro world. I think Karma can be ruled out too for meta reasons. The player is actually a good alternative answer - but while The Interceptor isn't phyiscally there. The Player is, but Rejuvenation has so far (wisely) avoided doing the Undertale and Earthbound thing of "You The Player In The Chair are lore important" and has instead created a metaphorical, in-universe player role. We do have an example of a Team Xen member talking to The Interceptor while they're not physically there (well sort of) - Kieran responding to Ren in the Easter Egg. But Kieran doesn't even try until he first sees a sign of some kinda Interceptin' going on. Nobody's actually unprompted started a conversation with the idea that The Interceptor would be around to hear it. Given Madame X is facing away from the camera at the time, and the context of the scene... I think she's just clearly speaking to Indriad. I don't think it's wishful thinking to suggest that she must really hate Indriad, because when does she ever show this much contempt to anyone else in the game? She's cold and dismissive talking about her mother, not angry. She treates Melanie similarly. Nobody else has gotten her this heated and angry. I think the conclusion that Madame X must be a Theolia is so clearly signalled in the writing, in terms of what the writing seems intended to say to us, that the question of "So why does she hate Indriad but respect her Father when she loses?" isn't a debunk, but rather, something we have to figure out as an additional mystery (if there are enough clues to actually figure it out). And in that sense, I think it must be that both Melanie and Madame X can treat the Yveltal as being different to Indriad. Quote Except she doesn't give a single shit about Kanon (which would be weird for Erin or Melia) and is doing it only so the history path would stay a certain way and the whole nuking Kugearen isn't in the cards. We don't actually disagree with this, I wasn't suggesting she actually cares about Kanon. She just seems to think that Kanon is part of her wincon. Quote First of all it was made EXTREMELY contextually clear that Madame X is not their Master in any capacity and they are just working together temporarily This is the biggest disagreement. Clear refers to "The Madame" and "The Master" interchangeably. I originally thought after Chapter 15 that their master must be someone totally other than Madame X, and then in the Renegade Chapter 0 I went "Oh, never mind". If there's lore that I've missed that explains this, or otherwise is so clear that it doesn't even need to explain this... well then it's something I've missed, and I'd really love to see it because it's probably big. I'll quote Clear directly. Quote "Before I begin, I want to state that this was not our own intention, but a request of our Master." "The fate of this individual has no bearing on me, and frankly is already a lost cause." "A past friend of your seems to be struggling, and will soon lose their life it not handled soon." "That friend being Talon Atriedes." "Will you go speak to him?" "..." "This complicates things for me. That was not the answer I hoped to hear." "Your non-compliance results in my own intervention as ordered by the Madame." "I have no idea why she wants us to waste our time on someone as unimportant as him." "But I shall respect your wishes as well. Teammate." That's one. Then there's the other. Quote "I am going to admit that I am getting... Irritated with the orders from the Madame." "Her focus on this boy from Grand Dream City is asinine." "But it is not my place to question her decisions." Clear received orders to essentially do a welfare check on Talon, from her master. She makes it clear that this is specifically about Talon's welfare, because the only consequence of not talking to Talon is him dying. She makes it clear that even after getting what she admits is useful info from Talon, that she still thinks the focus on Talon is asinine. She makes it clear Madame X is the one focused on him, and the one ordering her to give him helpful pep talks like "Don't worry, everyone will die soon". She also identifies her Master as the one giving the order to check on Talon. The entire time, she thinks checking in on Talon has no practical purpose, so Madame X clearly hasn't had one to give her. From this I'm inferring that Madame X must be the Master because she's the one giving Clear these orders about Talon in the first place. Madame X is the one with the weird focus on Talon's welfare, despite Talon being doomed. And her motive specifically, seemingly has no practical relevance to the mission. Quote This is all pure speculation, i believe it's more reasonable from writing perspective that it's foreshadowing and a clue to her identity rather than some extremely poor and misleading wording. Those words have been there for a LONG time and never were fixed or removed, it is much more likely that they have actual meaning in this version of the world and don't refer for random parallel world we don't know about. It would be disgustingly horrible writing and false Chekhov's gun and i have slightly more faith in Jan's writing abilities. Wouldn't it work just as well as a clue that says "Madame X cannot be from this universe"? It lines up very neatly with her mother being Taelia, and it's definitely clearly deliberate - you can even argue that Madame X's nihilistic attitude is exactly what Keta became after enough suffering, and you can even argue that Keta being given his own game is a sign saying "Pay attention to Keta!!!!". But, just as easily, I can say that Melanie invoking "Father" to mean Yveltal in Blacksteeple Castle is an incredibly obvious sign saying "Look how much like Madame X this is! Look, a Theolia just said 'Father' around an Yveltal, and this Theolia controls an Yveltal! Huh? Huh?" If it's not direct foreshadowing, then it must be a deliberate red herring. I don't think there's any accident here, or in terms of what conclusions players are meant to draw. The fact is, if Madame X is the Escapee, then anything we know about how her mother died from the main universe... doesn't apply. That includes Taelia's death too. Because it was a completely different death. And while the parallel universe would've been truly random if revealed at that point in the game, now that Kieran and Clear have established its existence (in an also kind of random way), I think it satisfies Knox 8, so to speak. Quote Also this is the "Descendant of Zed" one, i specifically went to character files for Zetta and pretty sure he doesn't look like this from any angle. I might be wrong here but i don't see it. Isn't the Zed piece the one to your right? 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Cyphre Posted December 2 Share Posted December 2 37 minutes ago, Dawn Oceana said: This is the biggest disagreement. Clear refers to "The Madame" and "The Master" interchangeably. I originally thought after Chapter 15 that their master must be someone totally other than Madame X, and then in the Renegade Chapter 0 I went "Oh, never mind". If there's lore that I've missed that explains this, or otherwise is so clear that it doesn't even need to explain this... well then it's something I've missed, and I'd really love to see it because it's probably big. I'll quote Clear directly. From what i understand that this whole thing is based on one single implication where she uses Master and Madame as if talking about one person. However when you pick renegade path, Kieran says "Clear and I fight for oblivion". Which you can interpret either as just them not bothering mentioning Madame X or their Master, or not including Madame X in this because she has other goals in mind. When we restored bad future she said "this was the outcome i was hoping to never see" (not exact wording), why would she care about it if she went for oblivion anyway. Why would she try and keep history a certain way if in the end she would plunge it all down the toilet and none of it would matter? Why would she "save us countless times because you are just too important for everything" as she said in Kugearen? She has a plan clearly so she doesn't NEED us for oblivion. Why would she gather negative energy or emotions or whatnot in Blacksteeple? Assuming she does gather it, maximum she can likely do with it is to cause Yveltal's extinction event, which is definitely not oblivion and nothing similar to what Kieran and Clear mean. Why would she need Archetype power for oblivion? Kieran and Clear do not, from what we can gather so far. Also there was a certain phrase that always interested me which she said on the boat in the bad future: "I realise and aware of the hardships i brought to you and many people". You could make an argument she was just tying to convince MC and Melia, but she never showed herself to be a liar or a deceiver, and the way she say it at least to me make it impossible to believe she has the same goal as Kieran, Clear and their Master, which is, well, oblivion. There is no reason to care about such things if her goal is just ultimate nothing, and she almost sound regretful that she has to cause harm to everyone. Overall from just a lot of circumstantial things i remember and some i do not currently remember i cannot agree in any way that Madame X and Clear+Kieran share an end goal. It is much more likely that their actual Master simply sent them to cooperate with Madame X and comply with her until they get what they actually want. And Madame X interest in Talon's fate annoys Clear simply because it doesn't align with their Master or their goals. 1 hour ago, Dawn Oceana said: Isn't the Zed piece the one to your right? No, the one to the right is with the hood and doesn't react to talking. I do not have a save file in this place so i just rewatched a video where a guy talk to every chess piece. This one says he is a descendant of Zed. Spoiler I also want to point out their position on the board along all the pawns, i.e. grunts and such. I do not think anything Zed related is particularly relevant due to this. Overall i very strongly disagree that Kieran and Clear creator and Master and Madame X are the the same person. Especially if it's based on one Clear dialogue that indeed implies such, which could be just a writing slip up as well or awkward wording. I still think that every theory have their points toward and against every of the main candidates and we simply cannot prove anything definitively or with a reasonable degree for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeguyman Posted December 2 Share Posted December 2 11 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: If Madame X is The Escapee, then she couldn't recognize The Interceptor no matter what, because she's from a different universe. Did this universe even have a Calamity? Would the A-gang have made it like 40 years into the future as like 18 year olds for Madame X to meet them all? Something else that was pointed out to me is that Maria actually does have genius feats, because she was doing Advanced Calculus at whatever age she was in Kugearen. But all the same, being a Leet Haxor is probably not enough to build KCE. The point isn't that Melia got good with computers, but that she got to that point in a few months starting from nothing. This proves that Melia is capable of intelligence feats if she puts her mind to it. This makes "she's too dumb to have built KCE" a weak argument. Melia's backwards dialog in Anju's tower clearly states: "How many times have we done this, Interceptor?" I think whatever the KCEverse is, it's more likely MC is there than not. 11 hours ago, Dawn Oceana said: I mean. Yeah, she did try. It doesn't make sense as far as we can tell, but it happened. Most things about Blacksteeple don't make any sense. That whole sequence after Madame X arrives is responsible for like half of them. Madame X could've easily been the one to save Melia instead of Nim, and then she didn't. They were actually going to die until Nim saved them. Either Madame X just needs Melia's body (plausible!), or it was just stupid. I don't think the Archetype was going to activate there... and I vaguely recall some suggestions that some preconditions had to be met before the Archetype could activate to save Melia at all, and I forget what they were or where this was even suggested, but why would Madame X want to fight against a freshly Arceused-Up Melia when that would make it possible for her to lose at all? The main thing that sequence says to me, that you can actually take away from it, is "Madame X doesn't care about Melia on a personal level", because overall it just doesn't make sense, but I think you can at least get that from it. What does the Emma disguise look like? There's no way it isn't an hint for anything, and it being an hing to "any preconditions Malia needs to awaken the archetype are met" is a possibility. 13.5 is a revamp of the whole game, if Madam X acts so out of character in such an important story event, it means that the inconsistency is only apparent. The fact still remains that she went as far as going Za Warudo to kill Nancy, of all people, but she didn't do anything close to that for Melia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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