Tempest Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Alright. I will not be able to do anything with the tiers tonight. I can't get my server started from where I am and I wouldn't be able to get the file to Swims or Nyu anyways. So can someone make sure Swims knows about these changes, in case I don't get on tonight? Added Chatter to the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Just as a flavour move why not "beat up"? all serious though where is payback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Hey... Beat Up is there... I didn't thought about payback tho... Hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Payback doesn;t really fit thematically-it's animation doesn't really fit, and it's description doesn't help either. Currently, all it has going for it is that it's Physical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 But Bide is in, so....? Although you're right... Payback description doesn't help that much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Revenge is in, so why not Payback? They're the same move, just different types I never quite got what the animation was supposed to be. To me it looks like a punch of spikes shooting out of my Tyranitar's face. Which is literally the only thing Revenge has over it (I guess Revenge's animation kinda looks like an uppercut?) Payback: Type= DarkPower = 50Accuracy = 100If the user moves after the target, this attack's power will be doubled. Revenge: Type = FightingPower = 60Accuracy = 100An attack move that inflicts double the damage if the user has been hurt by the opponent in the same turn.Oh, wait, Revenge is more powerful. huh, thought they were the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Payback also has -4 Priority. And yes, while Payback looks like some sort of energy blast, Revenge looks like punch to the face. Edited March 28, 2014 by Secundum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Does Revenge not have -4 priority? And I guess it kinda looks like energy? It's a physical move though Then again, Grass Knot is special Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Grass Knot is also contact...Because wynaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I guess Pokemon physical vs Special logic is a bit iffy. Still think Payback is perfectly fine tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Despite it not fitting at all with the theme? That's like saying Shadow Sneak does the same thing as Quick attack so lets allow that (despite the move description and animation showing the mon sending a shadow to attack from behind.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Well, what's different about Payback's description from Revenge's? It's clearly not a blast of energy, as it's a physical attack. Until Gen VI I would have assumed that the Pokemon was tackling the foe with power stored from earlier in the turn. And even then, it's just sort of hard to determine And I meant the same based upon their names and descriptions. Aside from Revenge's animation being clearly a punch, as opposed to Payback's somewhat unclear nature, they match up (Or that was my original argument, as it turns out, there are several mechanic based arguments for their difference. I was simply only worried about the theme at the time) Shadow Sneak does not have nearly the same description as Quick Attack, does it? Or a name that's nearly synonymous with it? Also, the BW animation for Payback shows the user gathering energy (like Strength or Bide) before proceeding to beat up the foe violently (I think it's the same in Gen 4 too?) And as much as I hate referring outside the games: In Pokemon Adventures the Pokemon clearly makes physical contact with the foe in an apparent tackle (Though again, outside the games, so not worth much outside a mention imo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 really didn't expect a debate over my suggestion but there is a way to settle this. A little research on bulbapedia shows though payback has never been shown in the anime the mange provides two different descriptions of it. a bronzong uses a blast of energy is the first and definitely not fitting the description of fight club. the second is drifloon smacking the shit of a misdreavus that just hit it, that kind of fits fight club. I feel the bronzong incident is more conclusive to the true nature of payback and here by withdraw my nomination of the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Explosion is also a physical attack, and that's a blast of energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 (edited) Troll freak decides wether something is physical or not just because they can Edited March 29, 2014 by Bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 It's not helped by special contact moves either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckles Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 i fail to understand why Detect is in there. Also, shouldn't trick (and perhaps even trick room) be in there? Think about it. The other thing is, I don't fully understand why claw and slash moves are not included...they are basically physical contact attacks with limbs. I mean sure it's not directly a punch or kick but neither is sucker punch (literally translates to Surprise Attack and is not boosted by iron fist, also can be used by many pokemon without the ability to punch) or any fang move. Howl and Harden seem strange too, and Sand Attack is just ridiculous. Anyway, i won't ask for Iron Tail or the like, but can we get maybe a Night Slash and Shadow Claw and maybe a Leaf Blade in here? Also, i noticed we don't get either Echoed Voice, Belch, Hyper Voice, Wring Out or Frost Breath, all of which seem to fit with everything else just fine(you have several moves in the list that involve making noise, wring out is literally wringing the opponent, and frost breath is literally breathing on your opponent, which, albeit creepy as fuck, is completely realistic anyway). Somebody please explain Megahorn because it does not fit with anything else at all. Also explain why Acrobatics is not there, it fits with everything. Retaliate too, i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Why shouldn't be Detect in there? It watching how your opponant moves and predicting what they'll do-just like in RL martial arts. Trick and Trick Room won't be in there. Ever. They're about as far from the theme as you can get. Sand-attack is in there because of throwing sand on the floor of a gym in their face. As for claw attacks-no. This is NOT just a 'physical' tier. Megahorn fits because it's tossing the opponant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckles Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Why shouldn't be Detect in there? It watching how your opponant moves and predicting what they'll do-just like in RL martial arts. Trick and Trick Room won't be in there. Ever. They're about as far from the theme as you can get. Sand-attack is in there because of throwing sand on the floor of a gym in their face. As for claw attacks-no. This is NOT just a 'physical' tier. Megahorn fits because it's tossing the opponant. Megahorn requires and uses a horn...why would there be sand there, with that logic you can add lots of water and rock moves in case there are puddles and stones and things, i mean that's taking a leap...Trick is literally tricking the opponent, if you can say you can make faces and noises and stuff how can you say you can't trick them in many ways? Trick Room just says creating a bizarre area, which could be interpreted in several ways, which is why i said maybe. Detect doesn't seem to fit because it's all mental and internal, claiming that it lets the user evade all attacks, it has nothing to do with opponents, or watching or predicting anything (that's not even a leap, what you said just made no sense). Detect is something that involves thinking and moving in a certain way for an effect, regardless of the opponent. If you want to put something like that in there, there are a hell of a lot of status moves that would fit as well such as Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, Agility, Stockpile, all the dancing moves, and most self-recovery moves. I'm not sure why you said that thing about physical moves, I actually mentioned several logical special and status moves, but i'm not sure you understand the way this works. Certainly seems like it anyway. Let me explain. The moves are chosen mainly because of their animation and their description, not actually their name or their category. it's very conceptual. Everything I said fits with the concepts based on other moves chosen and only mentioned because I looked at the descriptions and animations, and I also addressed some apparent outliers that probably do not belong. One more thing: why is Baby Doll Eyes not in there? There are already many moves allowed involving the eyes and staring or looking at enemies in a certain way, such as Scary Face and Glare. It seems odd to include moves requiring horns and fangs (which no people have) but not moves with claws. Tails pretty much fit in there too, but of all those, claws and fangs make the most sense because people and bite and claw at other people. Well hopefully you understand now Secundum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Seccy actually didn't want Megahorn and only allowed it because it involved tossing and people were pushing for it. Trick is like a magic Trick, using sleight of hand to swap items with an opponent (As shown by the Gen IV animation with the cups)Detect is about watching your opponents movements and predicting so you can brace yourself properly. Nasty Plot is allowed, however it's supposed to be an all physical tier, Chatter is only allowed because only Chatot (And Smeargle I guess) can learn it, and as such it's a gimmickI agree with you on Acrobatics, because it's about moving quickly and acrobatically around your opponent to strike themBaby-Doll eyes isn't allowed? Huh, I thought it was... But if it's not, Glare is a harsher move, as well as Scary face and Leer. Baby-Doll eyes is about acting cute so your opponent doesn't want to hurt you, like Growl (is Growl included, never even thought about it, if it is then it really shouldn't be)Slash and claw moves are indeed different. They require the Pokemon to have claws in the first place. Whereas fang moves only require teeth (Or just hard gums in Avalugg's case XD) If Megahorn is your argument, then I move for its removal (It's bugged me a bit anywhales) I'm also a bit bugged by Fell stinger... Unless that doesn't require an actual stinger? (Lol, bugged by the Bug attacks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 Fell Stinger is in there because it's the name of an actual real life technique. Baby-Doll eyes should be there. Acrobatics could probably go in now, as the tier has been play-tested enough imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Mkay, that makes sense thenI was pretty shore we had Baby-Doll Eyes, and I'm okay with it in or out. I still do kinda feel Megahorn doesn't quite fit, what's the reasoning for that beyond involving tossing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Let me know if anything becomes official. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 I think tossing was the only reason iirc. But all the playtesters essentially voted on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckles Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) What about wring out though? of all the moves i looked at that happen to be special, it seems to make a lot of sense. The animation is tough to describe though but it's supposed to be wringing, squeezing the opponent, which sounds like something that would happen in fight club. It is special but it certainly seems to me like it should be physical anyway. Also i still don't understand where you get your information about Detect because nothing i could find about it is remotely similar to what you have said. Why is harden in there though is seems very unfitting. If it stays and is allowed then there are many similar moves that should go in too... Edited April 4, 2014 by chuckles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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