Which pkm do you think will disappear in Ep.12?

[Felicity]

People, STOP YER WHINING YA GREAT BIG PANSIES!

(just read that with a scottish accent in mind)

Reborn is great because of the difficulty and the fact that it forces people to use pokemon they never would have before. For example i never even glanced at Pachirisu or Kricketune prior to playing reborn, but it turns outthat they were the rocks that got me through the first parts of the game. Even now i chose Igglybuff in my party rather than use Gardevoir for the 4th playthrough in a row to make it more challenging for me.Oh, and if you are prepped Megas arent that big a deal. Just learn to use a strat like always.

[GottaLoveShuckle]

Gyarados is OP for sure... there is a reason everyone suggests it whenever someone asks for help with a battle.

As others have said there is another really strong water type accessible early game. I am using a Azumarill in my current play though and it is my favourite non Bug type pokemon but I do think it needs moving to later game as it destroys everything when you first get it thanks to it evolving very early and learning a strong STAB Aqua tail very early (only level 21).

Others might not agree with this but I am using Ambipom on my current play through and like Azumarill you also get access to it too early... Because of the easy access to Purlions with Fake Out and Pursuit you can easily breed those moves onto a Aipom straight away you can catch Aipoms then train it to lvl 33 (which isnt over the level cap at that time) to teach it Double Hit and evolve it. Ambipom Technican/STAB boosted Fake Out then Double Hit pretty much destroys anything at that point of the game and is still very strong near the end.

i don't know about you guys but my azumaril doesn't play well. its power is no doubt, but even i invest max EV speed and it has 29 speed IV ( i don't like jolly than adamant, the power lose is 38 atk is too much) but it still TOO SLOW. and of course it can't take even two hit by someone equal or higher level, even neutral attack. and i'm breeding a new one to play in trick room team, start with Reuniclus, Amoongus, Magnezone, Malamar and Golem for suicide lead. it sounds good right? :v :v

so i don't think azumarill can play well without team support. tail wind or trick room or baton pass speed boost. so well, i'll vote not ban this little fairy @@

p/s: to Ame, whatever u want to update, and whenever u will end this game, just don't make us replay this from start, i'm begging you . spend more than 150 hours to create a competitive team for battle tower and elite four, i don't think i can handle from start all over again

I just think Azumarll needs to be replaced to a bit later game because its Huge Power/STAB Aqua Tail is way too strong at the part of the game you get Azumarll... Azumarill deffinately isnt overpowered later game and I would say is on the level of most other choices but its definitely too good early game.

[Rosesong]

I'm glad I have my Gardevoir already then... Suppose I can see why the removal would make the game harder, but it would be difficult.

[Deleted User]

Here's a thought Ame, how about you get a Ralts after something to do with G Gardevoir around the time, maybe before, maybe after the Battle with Radomus.

[Saber12]

@Dobby I don't know I think Jigglypuff is at the bottom of the list to even consider using as a fairy type or normal type. I feel that its stats are really weird and its move pool is in my opinion just plain boring. Worst part about it is you start with Igglypuff so you have to increase its happiness first to get a Jigglypuff which is very time consuming now unless you take all the hidden proteins and calciums you can find and feed the puff ball. Then do everything that involves increasing its happiness before it reaches level 17 in order for it to learn round so it has a fighting chances against some of its foes.

I personally don't like the idea of Gardevoir getting moved since Ralts and Kirlia are really frail early on almost as frail as Noibat. However, if I find myself catching Swirlix and Spritzee just for the heck of it then maybe it's best if Ralts were obtainable at least sometime after getting those two. I mean they are options but I see more teams using gardevoir with moonblast so these two may never be used or at least considered. In that case, I'm all for moving Gardevoir until later. As for Azumarill, Granbull is somewhat similar offensively but I wouldn't worry too much about Azumarill's huge power behind aqua tail. It's slow so it'll wear out eventually like most tanks.

We've got a few fair psychic options early on like Mime jr., Spoink, Woobat, Smoochum(not very good) and Chingling(again with the annoying happiness mechanics) a little later.

As for Gyarados users well looks like there's no need for Goldeen, Finneon or Surskit from the beginning. Honestly though, these options are hard for me to want to invest my grinding time on. Yeah maybe Trubbish, or Kriketot but a Goldeen without lightning rod for the first gym and then having to fight the grass gym leader next can get really annoying if it gets ko'd on the first turn against every pokemon. No one wants to invest time into training a pokemon that won't get used at all. I think Surskit is a bit more reliable but I haven't tried it yet.

Now I'm wondering if Mawile should've be moved. It was helpful for me early on but definitely not over powered when I used it in version 8. I think it wears itself out easily even up against Florina's grass types. Of course now its steel and fairy but it's stats never changed well that's a story for another time.

Maybe ame could put in manholes for us to use as shortcuts to get near the pokemon center or the grand hall. Or those alleys could have openings that lead to certain landmarks in the city so they're not just dead ends. Either way it would cut back tracking in Peridot ward notably and it would let the pros be pros. Those who know the streets know the shortcuts I guess. Might not be teleport but it could be fast and interesting. The game already had some great graphical improvements after the 10.5 release so maybe its a possibility.

[Omega_Ra1der]

damnit my gardevoir.....

[DJ Mewdeon ft Dan Punk]

these pkm are too OP

even close to being OP is Gyarados

Gyarados is OP for sure...

..sigh..

Personally, I feel that the term "op" has started to lose meaning as it gets tossed around more and more in threads like this. Gyarados is a fantastic Pokemon no doubt - it's been in smogon's Overused tier for 6 full generations now and for good reasons.. but many of those reasons never seem to be mentioned? All I see is "It gets Dragon Rage and then Dragon Dance and just enough physical moves to use Dragon Dance OP Ame pls ban." Gyarados has quite a few other characteristics worth mentioning - Water/Flying typing gains it a good amount of reliable resistances, such as key resists to Grass and Bug moves that are rather common early on, the various powerful Fighting moves from 5th generation, and a Ground immunity never hurts; 95/79/100 defenses give it solid special bulk and average/passable physical bulk (improves if you chose to use Intimidate); 125 attack is quality for a main attacking stat and 81 base speed is good enough that it outspeeds many threats at +1; Moxie allows it to keep growing power with successful KOs, further supplementing its sweeping and it -just barely- gets enough usable physical moves in its natural learnset to make use of its good attacking stats and great boosting move in Dragon Dance.

Problems with Gyarados: First thing that comes to mind is with the lack of TMs in the game, especially on the physical side, Gyarados is really hurting for versatility. Granted, Aqua Tail is your best option for an attacking move in the majority of situations, but unless you plan on using Thrash, neither of your two coverage moves make it above 70 BP. In using Gyarados early on, you're stuck with Splash/Tackle/Bite/Dragon Rage, and later this moveset becomes Bite/Ice Fang/Aqua Tail/Dragon Dance meaning that early on you'll have lots of problems with Pokemon like Florinia's Cradily (if you don't have Intimidate, this thing's Smack Down is punishing and will 2hko or easier with boosts) or the PULSE Tangrowth's surprisingly amplified movepool and later on there'll be trouble in battles with Dr. Connal and Aster/Eclipse along with a few other Pokemon with electric type coverage. This is due to flaws in Gyarados's otherwise great typing: a 4x electric weakness in situations where an electric coverage move appears and the rock weakness leaves the Leviathan weak to Stealth Rocks, a problem you'll encounter in Shelly's gym and any later battle in which Ame decides to put something with the move in (as the AI really, really likes to use this move). Additionally, unlike many Pokemon that are available to you, you cannot improve on Gyarados' moveset via breeding as it learns no moves whatsoever due to Magikarp. Speaking of Magikarp, dealing with this hindrance for 20 levels is a huge nuisance as until it reaches its Gyarados stage as until then its not even usable other than for death fodder.

In my opinion, having a useless Pokemon for 20 levels that you need to sink 5500$ into early on to even acquire that is almost isn't worth doing early (raising water types against electric and grass as the first two gyms? I guess at least in the grass gym you can Dragon Rage your way to victory.. but then the problem is Dragon Rage as you could do the same thing even easier just by choosing to start with Charmander) and then you still need a few more levels until it becomes a real powerhouse on your team (power spikes at levels 23-Dragon Rage, 35-Aqua Tail, 43-Dragon Dance). For me, if he was really OP/brokenly powerful it would mean that you cannot win without using him, and while that might have even been the case in earlier versions of the game where Florinia was a menace and there was a far more limited distribution of 'mon, times are different now and there's tons of Pokemon available throughout the game. I think it's time some .. Rebornians? stepped up and we had some threads about innovation in our ingame teams to better represent the competitive community that Reborn is... which leads me to...

I can tell you right now, though you guys are basically on the money already, the only ones I'm considering are Gyarados and Gardevoir. There's basically no reason for anyone to get any other water, psychic or fairy types with those two being as strong and as early as they are.

... this part.

Now while I'm fond of Ame and will usually stand by things that she says without questioning them, I think this point is significantly debatable. I think it's more likely borne from many of the "looking for tips on my team threads" being filled with "just use Gyarados" responses instead of lots of real discussion happening. Whether that's due to laziness or lack of creative input or something else entirely I can't say, but there's definitely plenty of other viable (or at the very least usable) Pokemon available in Reborn that fall under the water, psychic or fairy types.

I'm still writing up more comprehensive analyses for these as I was planning on making a sort of Reborn guide, but after Dashie posted his Reborn guide it seemed redundant to post my own analyses. For the sake of discussion, here are a few starting points as I finish longer writeups so I can get this post posted:

Azumarill (Water/Fairy)

> Obtained: Evolve Marill

> Marill is obtained by evolving Azurill, which can be found in a Jasper Ward event

> Initial Assessment: 4/5, a viable physical powerhouse

> Brief Analysis: Like other comments in this thread, I definitely agree that Huge Power Azumarill is a force to be reckoned with. Solid 100/80/80 defenses, priority in Aqua Jet to get past its otherwise poor speed stat, a fantastic new typing and move in the Fairy-type and Play Rough, great physical moves available to it including Defense Curl/Rollout combo and Superpower -- this Pokemon is definitely worth seeking out as it has great potential to serve you well. It also has access to Belly Drum and a few other neat moves, so check it out.

Slurpuff (Fairy)

> Obtained: Evolve Swirlix via a Linkstone

> Swirlix obtained as a gift via the Obsidian Ward Candy Shop tile puzzle

> Initial Assessment: Untested

> Brief Analysis: I'm not really sure about most Fairy-types to be honest as I'm still getting used to them, but I've seen a potential Slurpuff set floating around on competitive forums that could be worth looking into. The concept of the set is an Unburden Belly Drum Slurpuff set -- you have a Sitrus Berry holding Slurpuff use Belly Drum then eat the Sitrus Berry to both return to 75% HP AND activate Unburden. It's the only Pokemon with this move-ability combination, and it seems like it could be interesting to try out, but the drawbacks are that Slurpuff has average stats overall and its only viable non Play Rough physical moves are Return and Thief... which aren't exactly great moves. Its a plausibly decent set though, so maybe one of you can try it out?

Simipour (Water)

> Obtained: Evolve Panpour with a Water Stone

> Panpour obtained in Opal Bridge or West Peridot events, Adventurine Forest

> Initial Assessment: 2.5/5, potentially usable

> Brief Analysis: I'm not sure if you can breed Nasty Plot onto this Pokemon still, but if you can then this Pokemon may be worth more than it seems at first glance. It actually has reasonably decent attacking stats with 98/98 and a 101 base speed stat. The biggest downside to using it lies in a somewhat lackluster learnset for a mixed attacker, with Crunch being the best physical move available to it and Scald and Grass Knot for special attacks currently available. It's ability Gluttony doesn't help out very much as it affects a limited array of berries, most of which we don't have access to yet. It could be a usable Pokemon with some minimal investment, but without Nasty Plot I'm not sure it'd be worth your while..

Honorable mentions as I continue to write more of these: Swampert, Empoleon, Quagsire, Clefable, Swanna, Mr. Mime.. and the list goes on. I'm almost completely certain that if he were around to see me post something like this and not mention Eevee and his 3 respective evolutions of those types, Khayoz would get all mad at me. (Props to him, the true pioneer of the Pickup Army strategy) Thus, rated in respect to other eeveelutions:

Vaporeon (Water)

> Obtained: Use a Water Stone to evolve Eevee

> Initial Assessment: 4/5, excellent addition to your roster

> Brief Analysis: With the fattest hp stat of all the eeveelutions, Vaporeon (alongside Espeon and Jolteon) is one of the premier evolutions for your Eevee. It has fantastic special bulk, a strong Special Attack stat and a deep movepool to make good use of these two. Vaporeon is the best user of Wish among the eeveelutions due to stellar hp, and can be played in a support role via excellent support movepool, a bulky attacker role through maxing its huge hp and great special attack, or try for a mixed wall set with acid armor boosts and healing through leftovers and aqua ring. Water Absorb gives it opportunities to switch in on any water move, and Hydration can keep it clear of status in the rain. Vaporeon is the only eeveelution able to Baton Pass Aqua Ring and it can also carry Haze to clear enemy boosts. Vaporeon can be a solid asset to your team with great base stats through use of the many support moves it has access to.

Espeon (Psychic)

> Obtained: Evolve Eevee by friendship during the day

> Initial Assessment: 4/5, excellent addition to your roster

> Brief Analysis: With the highest 3 base stats in Special Attack, Speed and Special Defense in respective order of magnitude, Espeon is an eeveelution with real potential to play the special sweeper role. Access to Magic Bounce allows Espeon and her team relative safety from many various status reducing and entry hazard sort of moves, and Synchronize can allow for you to more easily acquire similarly natured Pokemon outside of battle, making it good when adding more members to your roster, and 'shares' statuses while in battle, allowing you to punish your opponents for using status moves. Psychic and Shadow Ball make good use of her attacking stats and like all eeveelutions, Espeon has a access to a solid pool of support moves. Be mindful of her less-than stellar base hp and poor physical bulk and you should be able to make excellent use of this Psychic eeveelution.

Sylveon (Fairy)

> Obtained: Evolve Eevee by friendship while knowing a Fairy-type move

> Initial Assessment: 3.5/5, solid support-role Pokemon

> Brief Analysis: Sylveon's highest base stat is in her Special Defense, and with her next two highest stats in Special Attack and HP, she can be used as a special attacking Fairy-type, but usually is best suited to a more supportive role. The Cute Charm ability allows her to infatuate Pokemon that cause contact, which can be used if one is mindful of Sylveon's middling physical bulk. On the other hand, the hidden ability, Pixilate, allows for use of Normal-type special moves with a boost in power and turning them to stab moves, which helps in leveling by powering up moves like Swift. Sylveon can't make as much use of this ability as Mega Gardevoir does, but it does help nonetheless. Through available moves like Light Screen, Misty Terrain, and a decent sized Wish, Sylveon can effectively play the support role and defend herself with powerful Moonblasts or Shadow Balls. Here's one neat move combination: boosting sweeper giving your team trouble? You could try using Psych Up into Baton Pass and see if you can get away with it!

I'm going to keep developing analyses for the other available Pokemon, to try to expand on what I have here and generally improve my assessments. For now though, here's a few brief assessments to get some discussion going. I don't think I'm ready to say Gardevoir/Gyarados are OP as I haven't used Gardevoir since my first run (training Ralts/Kirlia is a pain imo) and I have had successful playthroughs without any use of Gyarados.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Blind Guardian

[rhenry]

Yay underused Pokemon analysis!

Octillery (Water)
> Obtained: Evolve Remoraid
> Remoraid can be caught once in the fountain in the Chrysolia Forest

> Initial Assessment: 3.5/5, an offensive Poke with an expansive movepool

> Brief Analysis: With 105 in both attacking stats, Octillery has the potential to deal lots of damage. While slow (45 base speed), and average defensively (75/75/75), Octillery can fill a role similar to it's namesake, punching holes in tanks. Octillery's other big selling point is its ridiculous movepool. Using Heart Scales, here are some moves Octillery can have access to when it evolves: Psybeam, Bubblebeam, Rock Blast, Gunk Shot, Octazooka and Focus Energy (I'll get back to this move later). Post evolution, it learns Signal Beam, Ice Beam, Bullet Seed and Hydro Pump. It can also learn Charge Beam and Sludge Wave, 2 TMs you can acquire through the main story. The reason I mention Focus Energy is that Octillery has the ability Sniper. Along with the easily attainable Zoom Lens (Floor 3 of Dept Store), A Focus Energy Boost will give it 100% critical chance, doing 2.25x damage instead of the normal 1.5x damage. While its slow speed does hold it back, Octillery is one of the best Wall Breakers available in Reborn.

Jynx (Ice/Psychic)
> Obtained: Evolve Smoochum
> Smoochum is obtained after freeing a woman's friend from a Jasper Ward building upper floor

> Initial Assessment: 3.5/5, a fast, powerful special attacker

> Brief Analysis: Jynx is a strong offensive Pokemon, especially considering it has STAB ice moves, one of the strongest offensive types in the game. Its 95 Base Speed is relatively fast compared to most Pokemon you will encounter in Reborn. It also has a strong 115 Special Attack stat, and a solid 95 Special Defense. Jynx, however is not without faults. It has a pitiful 35 Defense and a weak 50 Attack stat. The low attack stat becomes relevant considering the bulk of the moves it learns between levels 15 to 38 are all physical. If you can make do with the 40 power Powder Snow, use Heart Scale to acquire Draining Kiss, and wait till Smoochum learns Psychic at level 38 to evolve, you will have an extremely potent Special Attacker on your hands. Pair that with the fact that you receive Frost Breath (A TM Jynx can learn) a little after level 38 through most playthroughs, you will have ~90 power Dual Stabs with very strong offensive typings and an attacking move which can heal Jynx. If you can take the time to properly train Jynx, it can become a force to be reckoned with.

[gutten_tag]

well, i think why don't you start a topic to analyse pokemon, i think it'll be suitable than posting in here @@.

p/s: btw, i mean analysing pkm WHY WE SHOULD USE IN REBORN, example when facing a gym leader, what pkm we should use and not use..... and NOT for competitive analysing. we got enough web page discuss about this, and i think most of us had some experience competitive too, so don't post something like that in here. it's boring.

Edited April 15, 2014 by gutten_tag

[Saber12]

@Blinding Guardian This is the kind of stuff that I'm looking for. I remember reading a few posts about a couple of monotype teams that made it through the first few gyms easily and neither of them had a Gyarados or Gardevoir. I think the monotype runs I saw were normal, bug, and dark but I know they got through the first two gym leaders to start. Its really hard for me to say whether any pokemon given early on is op because of there are so many factors to consider besides the competitive aspect. Like how you brought up how tedious the level grinding for Magikarp can be early on and the fact that you're blowing pretty much all the money you earned. Just look at how much you have to sacrifice for it now. And even though Ralts can do more fighting than a Magikarp, its defenses are very low even when it evolves into a Kirlia. There's also the fact that you won't have a level 30 Gardevoir unless you give most of the experience you're earning to Kirlia or you just plain grind it. Then there's Trapinch which you basically have to gamble or play a game repeatedly to get it. My point is that pokemon like Gyarados, Trapinch, and even Swirlix require you to give a lot in order to gain. That includes the event that you are going through as well as the grinding you'll have to put in after receiving the pokemon. I totally agree with the fact that we have more options other than Gardevoir and Gyarados for getting through the game though.

I think we'll need an analysis thread for obtainable pokemon in reborn pretty soon.(although I think we already have one around here somewhere though)

Oh and to stay on topic with the thread. Rattata's getting banned. :ph34r:That's right the one you'd least expect. Can't have endeaver Rattata users now can we? OP I tell ya!

[Gaunt]

Oook i'm a little late to this but...ahem...NOOOOOOOO!!!!! Not my Gyarados! I can't live without him ...was i dramatic enough ? Now let's be (a little) serious, i used him in every playthrough of Reborn (5 in total) and i have to say that before (ep 8-9) when the Gym Leaders were stronger (and Moxie was broken) he was good (very good) but not OP, now ( as of ep 10-11) the Gym Leaders are much more easier to beat, he became a real monster (almost unstoppable if he gets some boosts from Moxie and i don't even have Dragon Dance yet ) so maybe he is a little "out of place" early in the game (i wrecked the first 4 Gym Leaders using only him and no i'm not joking). I hope he will not be removed from the game (he's one of my favorite Pokemon) maybe it's better to make him too difficult to get early like with vulpix (that i got using a lv 15 Electrike but shh don't tell Ame ). Now for Gardevoir, i used her in 4 of my playthrough and although it's good Pokemon (that Moonblast), she isn't OP at all because of her mediocre speed (i always used her against Aya but now she's a Fairy so nope) in conclusion i don't think Ralts must be moved at all.

[Vinny]

..sigh..

Personally, I feel that the term "op" has started to lose meaning as it gets tossed around more and more in threads like this. Gyarados is a fantastic Pokemon no doubt - it's been in smogon's Overused tier for 6 full generations now and for good reasons.. but many of those reasons never seem to be mentioned? All I see is "It gets Dragon Rage and then Dragon Dance and just enough physical moves to use Dragon Dance OP Ame pls ban." Gyarados has quite a few other characteristics worth mentioning - Water/Flying typing gains it a good amount of reliable resistances, such as key resists to Grass and Bug moves that are rather common early on, the various powerful Fighting moves from 5th generation, and a Ground immunity never hurts; 95/79/100 defenses give it solid special bulk and average/passable physical bulk (improves if you chose to use Intimidate); 125 attack is quality for a main attacking stat and 81 base speed is good enough that it outspeeds many threats at +1; Moxie allows it to keep growing power with successful KOs, further supplementing its sweeping and it -just barely- gets enough usable physical moves in its natural learnset to make use of its good attacking stats and great boosting move in Dragon Dance.

Problems with Gyarados: First thing that comes to mind is with the lack of TMs in the game, especially on the physical side, Gyarados is really hurting for versatility. Granted, Aqua Tail is your best option for an attacking move in the majority of situations, but unless you plan on using Thrash, neither of your two coverage moves make it above 70 BP. In using Gyarados early on, you're stuck with Splash/Tackle/Bite/Dragon Rage, and later this moveset becomes Bite/Ice Fang/Aqua Tail/Dragon Dance meaning that early on you'll have lots of problems with Pokemon like Florinia's Cradily (if you don't have Intimidate, this thing's Smack Down is punishing and will 2hko or easier with boosts) or the PULSE Tangrowth's surprisingly amplified movepool and later on there'll be trouble in battles with Dr. Connal and Aster/Eclipse along with a few other Pokemon with electric type coverage. This is due to flaws in Gyarados's otherwise great typing: a 4x electric weakness in situations where an electric coverage move appears and the rock weakness leaves the Leviathan weak to Stealth Rocks, a problem you'll encounter in Shelly's gym and any later battle in which Ame decides to put something with the move in (as the AI really, really likes to use this move). Additionally, unlike many Pokemon that are available to you, you cannot improve on Gyarados' moveset via breeding as it learns no moves whatsoever due to Magikarp. Speaking of Magikarp, dealing with this hindrance for 20 levels is a huge nuisance as until it reaches its Gyarados stage as until then its not even usable other than for death fodder.

In my opinion, having a useless Pokemon for 20 levels that you need to sink 5500$ into early on to even acquire that is almost isn't worth doing early (raising water types against electric and grass as the first two gyms? I guess at least in the grass gym you can Dragon Rage your way to victory.. but then the problem is Dragon Rage as you could do the same thing even easier just by choosing to start with Charmander) and then you still need a few more levels until it becomes a real powerhouse on your team (power spikes at levels 23-Dragon Rage, 35-Aqua Tail, 43-Dragon Dance). For me, if he was really OP/brokenly powerful it would mean that you cannot win without using him, and while that might have even been the case in earlier versions of the game where Florinia was a menace and there was a far more limited distribution of 'mon, times are different now and there's tons of Pokemon available throughout the game. I think it's time some .. Rebornians? stepped up and we had some threads about innovation in our ingame teams to better represent the competitive community that Reborn is... which leads me to...

... this part.

Now while I'm fond of Ame and will usually stand by things that she says without questioning them, I think this point is significantly debatable. I think it's more likely borne from many of the "looking for tips on my team threads" being filled with "just use Gyarados" responses instead of lots of real discussion happening. Whether that's due to laziness or lack of creative input or something else entirely I can't say, but there's definitely plenty of other viable (or at the very least usable) Pokemon available in Reborn that fall under the water, psychic or fairy types.

I'm still writing up more comprehensive analyses for these as I was planning on making a sort of Reborn guide, but after Dashie posted his Reborn guide it seemed redundant to post my own analyses. For the sake of discussion, here are a few starting points as I finish longer writeups so I can get this post posted:

Azumarill (Water/Fairy)

> Obtained: Evolve Marill

> Marill is obtained by evolving Azurill, which can be found in a Jasper Ward event

> Initial Assessment: 4/5, a viable physical powerhouse

> Brief Analysis: Like other comments in this thread, I definitely agree that Huge Power Azumarill is a force to be reckoned with. Solid 100/80/80 defenses, priority in Aqua Jet to get past its otherwise poor speed stat, a fantastic new typing and move in the Fairy-type and Play Rough, great physical moves available to it including Defense Curl/Rollout combo and Superpower -- this Pokemon is definitely worth seeking out as it has great potential to serve you well. It also has access to Belly Drum and a few other neat moves, so check it out.

Slurpuff (Fairy)

> Obtained: Evolve Swirlix via a Linkstone

> Swirlix obtained as a gift via the Obsidian Ward Candy Shop tile puzzle

> Initial Assessment: Untested

> Brief Analysis: I'm not really sure about most Fairy-types to be honest as I'm still getting used to them, but I've seen a potential Slurpuff set floating around on competitive forums that could be worth looking into. The concept of the set is an Unburden Belly Drum Slurpuff set -- you have a Sitrus Berry holding Slurpuff use Belly Drum then eat the Sitrus Berry to both return to 75% HP AND activate Unburden. It's the only Pokemon with this move-ability combination, and it seems like it could be interesting to try out, but the drawbacks are that Slurpuff has average stats overall and its only viable non Play Rough physical moves are Return and Thief... which aren't exactly great moves. Its a plausibly decent set though, so maybe one of you can try it out?

Simipour (Water)

> Obtained: Evolve Panpour with a Water Stone

> Panpour obtained in Opal Bridge or West Peridot events, Adventurine Forest

> Initial Assessment: 2.5/5, potentially usable

> Brief Analysis: I'm not sure if you can breed Nasty Plot onto this Pokemon still, but if you can then this Pokemon may be worth more than it seems at first glance. It actually has reasonably decent attacking stats with 98/98 and a 101 base speed stat. The biggest downside to using it lies in a somewhat lackluster learnset for a mixed attacker, with Crunch being the best physical move available to it and Scald and Grass Knot for special attacks currently available. It's ability Gluttony doesn't help out very much as it affects a limited array of berries, most of which we don't have access to yet. It could be a usable Pokemon with some minimal investment, but without Nasty Plot I'm not sure it'd be worth your while..

Honorable mentions as I continue to write more of these: Swampert, Empoleon, Quagsire, Clefable, Swanna, Mr. Mime.. and the list goes on. I'm almost completely certain that if he were around to see me post something like this and not mention Eevee and his 3 respective evolutions of those types, Khayoz would get all mad at me. (Props to him, the true pioneer of the Pickup Army strategy) Thus, rated in respect to other eeveelutions:

Vaporeon (Water)

> Obtained: Use a Water Stone to evolve Eevee

> Initial Assessment: 4/5, excellent addition to your roster

> Brief Analysis: With the fattest hp stat of all the eeveelutions, Vaporeon (alongside Espeon and Jolteon) is one of the premier evolutions for your Eevee. It has fantastic special bulk, a strong Special Attack stat and a deep movepool to make good use of these two. Vaporeon is the best user of Wish among the eeveelutions due to stellar hp, and can be played in a support role via excellent support movepool, a bulky attacker role through maxing its huge hp and great special attack, or try for a mixed wall set with acid armor boosts and healing through leftovers and aqua ring. Water Absorb gives it opportunities to switch in on any water move, and Hydration can keep it clear of status in the rain. Vaporeon is the only eeveelution able to Baton Pass Aqua Ring and it can also carry Haze to clear enemy boosts. Vaporeon can be a solid asset to your team with great base stats through use of the many support moves it has access to.

Espeon (Psychic)

> Obtained: Evolve Eevee by friendship during the day

> Initial Assessment: 4/5, excellent addition to your roster

> Brief Analysis: With the highest 3 base stats in Special Attack, Speed and Special Defense in respective order of magnitude, Espeon is an eeveelution with real potential to play the special sweeper role. Access to Magic Bounce allows Espeon and her team relative safety from many various status reducing and entry hazard sort of moves, and Synchronize can allow for you to more easily acquire similarly natured Pokemon outside of battle, making it good when adding more members to your roster, and 'shares' statuses while in battle, allowing you to punish your opponents for using status moves. Psychic and Shadow Ball make good use of her attacking stats and like all eeveelutions, Espeon has a access to a solid pool of support moves. Be mindful of her less-than stellar base hp and poor physical bulk and you should be able to make excellent use of this Psychic eeveelution.

Sylveon (Fairy)

> Obtained: Evolve Eevee by friendship while knowing a Fairy-type move

> Initial Assessment: 3.5/5, solid support-role Pokemon

> Brief Analysis: Sylveon's highest base stat is in her Special Defense, and with her next two highest stats in Special Attack and HP, she can be used as a special attacking Fairy-type, but usually is best suited to a more supportive role. The Cute Charm ability allows her to infatuate Pokemon that cause contact, which can be used if one is mindful of Sylveon's middling physical bulk. On the other hand, the hidden ability, Pixilate, allows for use of Normal-type special moves with a boost in power and turning them to stab moves, which helps in leveling by powering up moves like Swift. Sylveon can't make as much use of this ability as Mega Gardevoir does, but it does help nonetheless. Through available moves like Light Screen, Misty Terrain, and a decent sized Wish, Sylveon can effectively play the support role and defend herself with powerful Moonblasts or Shadow Balls. Here's one neat move combination: boosting sweeper giving your team trouble? You could try using Psych Up into Baton Pass and see if you can get away with it!

I'm going to keep developing analyses for the other available Pokemon, to try to expand on what I have here and generally improve my assessments. For now though, here's a few brief assessments to get some discussion going. I don't think I'm ready to say Gardevoir/Gyarados are OP as I haven't used Gardevoir since my first run (training Ralts/Kirlia is a pain imo) and I have had successful playthroughs without any use of Gyarados.

I agree with everything you said, but there's a reason why Gardevoir/Gyarados are OP in Reborn...

You can get both way too early in the game... Sure, you can get a Vaporeon later, but why get it if you've been using that Gyarados since the 1st gym? Why bother with Sylveon if Gardevoir gets an movepool good enough to deal with 70% of the game?

The two pokes that stands out there it's Azumarill and Slurpuff... But you need a Link Stone for Slurpuff, and Link Stones are limited right now, so you'd have to think twice... And while Azumarill is good, it gets Play Rough at level 50 and SuperPower at level 42, two of it's "core moves" (It does get Aqua Tail and Double Edge fairly soon though...)

The thing is: Gyarados and Gardevoir have almost no drawbacks (It's better to deal with a Magikarp/Ralts and Kirlia for 20/30 levels than wait until Chrysolia to get a lvl 5 Eevee)...

[GottaLoveShuckle]

@Blinding Guardian This is the kind of stuff that I'm looking for. I remember reading a few posts about a couple of monotype teams that made it through the first few gyms easily and neither of them had a Gyarados or Gardevoir. I think the monotype runs I saw were normal, bug, and dark but I know they got through the first two gym leaders to start. Its really hard for me to say whether any pokemon given early on is op because of there are so many factors to consider besides the competitive aspect. Like how you brought up how tedious the level grinding for Magikarp can be early on and the fact that you're blowing pretty much all the money you earned. Just look at how much you have to sacrifice for it now. And even though Ralts can do more fighting than a Magikarp, its defenses are very low even when it evolves into a Kirlia. There's also the fact that you won't have a level 30 Gardevoir unless you give most of the experience you're earning to Kirlia or you just plain grind it. Then there's Trapinch which you basically have to gamble or play a game repeatedly to get it. My point is that pokemon like Gyarados, Trapinch, and even Swirlix require you to give a lot in order to gain. That includes the event that you are going through as well as the grinding you'll have to put in after receiving the pokemon. I totally agree with the fact that we have more options other than Gardevoir and Gyarados for getting through the game though.

I think we'll need an analysis thread for obtainable pokemon in reborn pretty soon.(although I think we already have one around here somewhere though)

Oh and to stay on topic with the thread. Rattata's getting banned. :ph34r:That's right the one you'd least expect. Can't have endeaver Rattata users now can we? OP I tell ya!

Well I have done the whole game with Dark type Mono ( by "the whole game" I mean the episodes released so far). Strangely Noel was still my hardest gym battle in that mono type... even harder than facing Kiki and her fighting types.

[Chase]

Oi!

Instead of removing Gardevior, doctor that Ralts' moveset so that it doesn't get Teleport? You already removed the Abra! (to my understanding anyway)

The thing about Ralts is that - now that it has that Fairy type, the Poison pokes practically tee off on it if they can get past one Confusion. It's like a boxing match every time it out against Cain, Corey, or whatever, and those guys are prominent early game opponents.

Magikarp is one of those oddball pokemon. Totally useless early on, and becomes a huge threat with love. It leads me to believe both of those Pokemon are fine where they are.

[Truly Deceptive]

Ralts and Magikarp are a given. Then, shortly thereafter, they'll be followed by Pansear, Panpour, Snubbull, Pachirisu, Zigzagoon, Lillipup, Azurill, Spritzee, Swirlix, Kricketot, Shuppet, Lotad, and the Starter Pokémon in that order. And you'll be given the choice between a Sunkern and a Slakoth as a Starter. Of course, you won't get any of them back until after you beat the Elite Four, and you'll have to hatch them all from eggs.

[Chase]

Technician Kricketune, is an early game lifesaver.

[Truly Deceptive]

And, like that, it enters Ame's consideration for Pokémon to remove in Episode XIII.

Also, hoping Amethyst reads this:

You could always counter Gyarados by giving Pokémon unexpected Electric-type moves...

I mean, this game should run on the basis that the computer is a cheating bastard.

Oh; also, Budew. People could always use that.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Truly Deceptive

[Chase]

I would rather Ame remove things like Kricketot in favor of Gardevoir or Gyarados because Kricketot distinctively requires much less effort than either of those other 'mons. Bug type. Evolves pretty early, learns Fury Cutter (which, if spammed, can get absolutely ridiculous considering we're talking about...well.....Kricketune.

On the other hand, how many people would consider bringing along Technician Kricketune to go battle Luna? It wouldn't be a -bad- idea.

[Truly Deceptive]

There's a reason why Luna has Prankster Sableye, then...

[Azeria]

i think aron is gonna go cause remember you get it just before the last 4 GYMS first is serra who he has DUal super effective stab on

Then is noel he got a resistance then we have radomus Whom he has resistance against and finnaly luna he isnt resistant to her anymore but can easily knock out 1 or 2 pokemon. Plus he has Rock head stab HEAD SMASH dude over freaking powered

[Chase]

Yep, that was the source of my hesitation.

Sorta-.....kinda on topic, Vulpix is now adequately difficult to obtain. The Mechanightmare Klingklang can be taken down before battling Corey, but it's a real pain if you don't get lucky when succeeding and being rewarded with Flash Fire Vulpix instead of Drought at that point in time. Props.

[Truly Deceptive]

You can get Vulpix?!

Ame (Thinks to Self): Not anymore...

[Chase]

It's a bit of an ordeal depending on how far you are in the game. It actually recently was made more difficult to obtain, and after finally getting a Pokemon to like me enough and somehow taking out that blasted Klingklang with my team of level 20 somethings, I didn't get the ability that makes the 'Pix one of the most desired pokes in this game.

[Truly Deceptive]

Well, I've just made the inference that removing Pokémon resulted in their comparable early-game alternatives becoming virtual necessities for standard teams; Ame's trying to remedy this by removing even more instead of just making them more difficult to train.

[Anthalt]

This may sound a little farfetch'd (see what I did there... pokepuns) but here me out.

Swap bulbasaur with chespin in their respective events. Chesnaught is an a solid physical wall, with a nice range of supporting moves, and a cool ability. Venusaur is an unstoppable god eating monster of doom that you gaze upon in horror as he devours everything in his path (EVERYTHING!).

I initially didn't take venusaur because I wanna catch'em all and he's already in the game as an event (instead I took my favourite starter, sceptile and paid dearly for my choice); as a result the game was hard... really hard. Then I found the little bulbasaur... and with a little creative breeding (which honestly wasn't that necessary I just wanted sludge bomb and giga drain because... well... unstoppable god eating monster of doom...)... the game wasn't hard anymore. From that point on I'd fight battles... things would look bad and my team would be getting swept... down to my last pokemon I would sigh and say "fine... I guess I'll win now..." and out would come venusaur. A sleep powder, a couple growths, and it didn't matter what stood in his way. He swept the ice gym. He swept Fern (who then called me a cheater... and horror of horrors... with venusaur on my team... he was right).

So why swap chespin and bulbasaur's events and not just remove bulbasaur as an event entirely? Because the fact that he is attainable later in the game discourages him as a choice for starter in the early game (I haven't hit episode 11's fight's yet but I can only hope they're ready for venusaur when I get there). Chesnaught on the other hand is nice... but he's not going to single handedly sweep 6 ice types in a 2 on 1 double battle after the rest of your team faints)...

If the point of adding and removing new pokemon is to actually create varied team options throughout the game, then I think the real key isn't to remove them at all but to find the place where that unbelievable power fits. Basically... organizing pokemon's arrivals into the game based on their tier.