Baton pass and Swagger? ~Voting Ends June 25th~

[Kamina]

yea so let just discuss ~

VIABLE <----------------- i cannot emphasize this WORD enough [Haze is rarely ever useful outside of baton pass]

ways to beat it.

Anyways slant had recently made a bp team and made it to top ladder pretty easily and in his rmt he already beautifully describes how it is near impossible to beat bp unless you have a counter team (with haze) or get lucky with multiple crits.

Obviously getting rid of bp all together is not the best solution so if there were ways to at lest nerf chain bp that would be good.

Swagger on the other hand makes the match decided by a coin flip. Unless the opponent runs a magic bouncer or a stall/semistall team than they have to be lucky enough not to hit themselves. Obviously it also has a chance of backfiring but the point is that it no longer becomes a game of skill but how lucky you become. Crits/burns also do the same thing but they are not controlled my either opponents while swagger is. [maybe even confuse ray]

anyways i just want this to be a discussion about other possible viable ways to counter it making them not as OP as they appear to me or other reasons why they should be gone.

please make them respectable or post will be deleted c: thanks~

[Fezzdog]

Before we get things started, I'm just going to say that I think Swagger and BP should get seperate threads for discussion.

[Shamitako]

^^^

But barring that, I like Swagger (obviously) and have absolutely no problem with anything luck based. The only thing that ever really has trouble countering my PranSwag is hyper-offense with no support

I see no problem with BP either, anything with Taunt murders it pretty quickly. And Rocks are a pain. Phazing moves always gave me problems as well. And Infernape leads usually limited how much boosting my first Pokemon could get, which in turn meant I had to rely more on my secondary boosts

[Kamina]

@Fezzdoge

O; hmm yea they should be two different topics since they are both different by nature. But I don’t think it should be too much of a hassle to try and fit both of them here (since it has already been made n_n).

@Kyra

Fair point that there are many ways to beat bp especially since they are forced to lead with scolipede as there is no team preview. Taunters (and phazers) can beat bp, but unless you have more than two of them it will be fairly easy for an opponent to predict it and switch into espeon.

Swagger can be beaten my semi bulky pokemon by infinite switches but even that will fall apart if there are hazards in your side. In that scenario eventually you will have to attack and if you are confused you have a fifty percent chance of doing a lot of damage back to yourself. Heavy offensive also happens to be the most popular play style (at lest from the battles I have done in reborn) and a meta full of stall or with espeon/xatu isn’t really healthy meta imo.

Thanks for you input ^^

I guess really it depends on if people want to deal with luck/stale meta or if they don’t which is what this topic was made for.

[Shamitako]

Hyper offense is popular, but I think it's only so because it's the easiest to use

I only really know from my personal experience running BP. Stall teams had a tough time with it (many subs to block status), but not much else

[Ikaru]

Speaking purely out of theory here since that's the best I usually can do- with the changes to Infiltrator and certain attacks being able to go through Substitute in general, I think Baton Pass is less overwhelming than it used to be; I took a look at Slant's RMT and he does list some clear counters, 3/4 of which aren't particularly situational I don't think (although Haze is still debatable), and you brought up Heatran which inherently has the ability to completely wall Talonflame (admittedly might be dropping in usage already, idk)... On the topic of Heatran, actually, is Torment blocked by Substitute, and does the effect stay through Baton Pass? I think it would slow down boosting considerably if it's used early enough... Of course, that's the 4th gen in me speaking, and I'm not sure how usable that set is now. Perhaps Mold Breaker Taunt from Haxorus or Mega Gyarados? From what I heard from Roo Kyurem-B is a relatively high-viability threat as well, and as far as I know it's basically destroyer of stall. Again, though, this is all mostly theory since I don't play much myself, much less against Baton Pass. I guess in the end it still comes down to "do you have x counter to baton pass because if not you lose."

As for Swagger I'm fine with that going (and in fact I expected a topic about it (and Blaziken) sooner) although maybe a little more specifically; perhaps Prankster+Swagger or Swagger+Foul Play or all three together? I know how much everyone loves that whole Swagplay thing (lookin' at you, Xiph) so mmmmmmmaybe Swagger alone can stay or something idk. After the evasion ordeal I do agree that anything this luck-based is probably not a good thing to keep around, regardless of the equal chance of it backfiring on the user, considering nothing with Own Tempo is particularly usable aside from Slowbro/king, both of which would much rather have Regenerator. It's interesting how this is a thing now, though, when nobody batted an eye at Liepard in 5th gen. I guess Klefki's better typing made it more obvious.

I talk a lot for how non-competitive I usually am, sorry >>

[Cowtao]

Personally i'm up for getting rid of both.

Baton Pass has reached a breaking point with the advent of Speed Boost users such as Scolipede and Blaziken being allowed on the same team. Tactics such as using Roar/Whirlwind or using niche moves or items such as Red Card/Eject Button/Haze/Torment are too uncommon to be used effectively in a healthy meta game. The list of pokemon that have access to Roar and Whirlwind are very few are far between such as Hippowdon, Skarmory, or Heatran. It has gone to the point that we are even thinking about these pokemon and unique ways to stop it is making it a bit overcentralized. I'm up for a solution to reduce the power of Baton Pass or removing it entirely.

Swagger is MUCH more broken than Baton Pass. Unlike Baton Pass that actually has ways of stopping it successfully, albeit in a very unconventional manner; Swagger doesn't have much. It is mostly decided on a Coin Flip and more often than not it is towards the Swagger user's favor. Keep in mind, Swagger wasn't always so broken. Liepard was one of the kings of this tactic and was a high nuisance of this tactic. There are certain drawbacks however that set it back from being too broken with lackluster defense, outspeed by other Pranksters such as Thundurus, and weakness to Fighting-Type moves; Especially from the likes of Guts users such as Heracross, Conkeldurr, Machamp. Even Magic Bounce had a way of remeding Liepard by using HP Fighting. Now sadly, Swagger has been given to Klefki and he takes full advantage of this tactic. Better typing, better stats, better moves, and overall just a better pokemon in general is giving Swagger a bad name. Klefki has access to T-Wave, Toxic, Spikes, Dual Screens, Swagger, Foul Play, and Play Rough. Nearly all of these moves are extremely screwey and can be used in a mixed set from setting up Dual Screens to the horrible tactic known as #SwagPlay. Swagger is ultimately to blame for the problems caused by it because Confuse Ray, unlike Swagger; doesn't improve the power of confuse hax or Foul Play. Throw in the fact that Fighting Types/Magic Bounce are near useless against Klefki, it makes the tactic more deadly.

[slant]

Most of the arguments I see go "BP is pretty easy to beat" and then they list some counters to BP.

That's not the point. The point is that any match against a BP team becomes 100% matchup based. Do you have any counters to bp? If so, congratulations you won, otherwise you lost. There is no skill involved, no battle of the minds. The match is won or lost before it is even played. That's what makes it so sucky.

Regarding specific BP counters, really the only viable one is haze and perish song, and those users are so few and far between (Politoed, Celebi, Quagsire) that to be locked into one of those pokemon to have a chance against bp is just ridiculous. Other counters mentioned are not a big deal. I have not found taunt to be an issue, at worst I am stuck attacking for 3 turns or so while my opponent barely scratches me after I have a few defense boosts up. Stealth rock can be annoying but really it is not too hard to play against, most pokemon on a bp team do not take too much damage from rocks. Finally phazers can be seen from a mile away (HMM I WONDER WHY MY OPPONENT BROUGHT OUT SKARMORY). Most BP teams carry some combination of Espeon, Mr. Mime, and Smeargle with Ingrain, specifically to shut down all of these counters.

[Guest]

I don't like both of them, actually, I like Swagger, I dislike BP. As Slant said the only really viable counters that I know of are Perish Song (and now Haze), and there're only a few common Pokemon in OU that use them, and if you don't have them you either have to depend on luck or you're going to have a bad time. And these BP teams do usually have specific Pokemon to counter your taunts or whatever else (Espeon) and the occasional Rapid Spinners (I dunno how Gen 6 BP teams work, using Gen 5 experience), but yes, there are a few ways of dealing with Baton Pass teams other than that I found, that are not listed, but it solely depends on the match up of the team(s), as stated previously.

As for Swagger, welp, that's luck kind of, the fact that you get confused but +2 is like woah, but then if you get hit or something then it's game. Semi bulky Pokemon I found deal with it quite well, I've had a few lucky instances with Excadrill.

[HugAKitten]

Roar/whirlwind is way far from a niche baton pass counter though. Both because it's pretty universally great, and because by itself it's not actually a baton pass counter .

Being serious, here's the take of an ex-baton-pass user. I run a full stall team now in OU, which is canonically baton pass's easiest match-up (we don't even get random crits as an out and often can't do more to calm mind Espeon than seismic toss it 4 times). My team has never ever had trouble with baton pass thanks to this wondrous bit of tech though:

Gyarados (M) @ Gyaradosite

Ability: Intimidate

EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 Spd

Jolly Nature

- Rest

- Sleep Talk

- Roar

- Waterfall

It's generally useful in the exact same capacity that it was back in Gen 4 OU when this set was common stall tech (and has gained utility too with its ability to counter Conkeldurr, many variants of Gliscor that didn't exist then, and a couple others, and also now commonly being guessed to be a dragon dance killer instead). Then as a nice side benefit it also makes BP teams cry. I also run a perish song Celebi that outspeeds Smeargle, though it was independently selected for heal bell support, taking spores, and ability to beat last Pokemon of the magic guard variety, not because of the baton pass match-up. It rarely ever comes into play against baton pass teams because it's too funny to watch them helplessly cry against Gyarados.

After that set above, the next best thing you can run against BP teams is prankster taunters (Thundurus/Tornadus being the best for their ability to also hit very hard, though Sableye, Murkrow, Whimsicott, Tornadus, Liepard, and Mega-Banette are all so rough for them it scarcely matters). The opponent can't even baton pass to Espeon to deal with the taunt; in a large majority of circumstances if you get it in against a non-Espeon then your opponent is just forced to restart the chain completely.

Third best thing is haze, though the opponent can taunt you out of being able to do it. After that CB Talonflame gets an honorable mention since it can always stop them unless they can get some defense boosts passed by Vaporeon or Zapdos prior to getting any speed boosts (since Talonflame is a dead stop to Scolipede/Ninjask being able to pass anything).

If you don't have any of the above things then you have to rely on smart play, hard hitters (Mega Mawile is good because it forces 50-50 guesses on all BP team defense boosters with SD just by hitting *that* hard), random taunters, perish song users, and Ditto, all of which aren't counters but have alright chances when used intelligently. A generally good strategy if you have access to it is to try and get some prior damage on Espeon, which is usually really easy since they're forced to bring it in to handle any whirlwind/taunt user that you've got. Then with some prior damage on it you can often take the stored power at the end with something that has a sash (BP teams rarely have hazards) and KO back with a special move, since if you played smart they probably acrued at most 2.5x special defense through calm minds. In particular blaze + sash + overheat mixed infernape sets are very good at this (some of them can even follow up with a mach punch after before they go out). But at this point you're actually letting baton pass teams play the game instead of just free-winning against them. Who wants that?

Edited May 25, 2014 by HugAKitten

[Shamitako]

My arguments for keeping BP are based on my experience using it. I found that few teams were incapable of defeating it. So I abandoned it. I suppose I could have just been really crappy tho

Also, things are pretty generally matchup based. "If you're not carrying this then this Pokemon can beat you. But then if you aren't carrying that, this one stops it" It goes on and on listing checks and countersthat you need to carry, and it's impossibubble to counter everything. You can have your entire team nearly wiped out before you take a single Pokemon down. Why? Because you didn't run something to counter it

[Kamina]

Gyarados (M) @ Gyaradosite

Ability: Intimidate

EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 Spd

Jolly Nature

- Rest

- Sleep Talk

- Roar

- Waterfall

It is an interesting set! But keep in mind that a lot of bp teams carry a smeargle with ingrain and makes them unphazable to even a mold breaker gyradoes. When they get that down it will be near impossible to stop with a stall team. Assuming that a bp team decides not to run it, than still forcing teams to carry moldbreaker phazer still seems to centralize the meta a bit as the only ones that I have ever seen are the gyra you pointed out and haxorus.

It's generally useful in the exact same capacity that it was back in Gen 4 OU when this set was common stall tech (and has gained utility too with its ability to counter Conkeldurr, many variants of Gliscor that didn't exist then, and a couple others, and also now commonly being guessed to be a dragon dance killer instead). Then as a nice side benefit it also makes BP teams cry. I also run a perish song Celebi that outspeeds Smeargle, though it was independently selected for heal bell support, taking spores, and ability to beat last Pokemon of the magic guard variety, not because of the baton pass match-up. It rarely ever comes into play against baton pass teams because it's too funny to watch them helplessly cry against Gyarados.

Perish song celebii is a counter and can deal with more than just bp but atm it is considered to be UU according to both smogon and PO. This does not mean that it is not good at all in OU or anything but fitting a UU pokemon in an OU team just for the sake of counter teaming bp doesn’t seem practical or healthy for the Meta game.

After that set above, the next best thing you can run against BP teams is prankster taunters (Thundurus/Tornadus being the best for their ability to also hit very hard, though Sableye, Murkrow, Whimsicott, Tornadus, Liepard, and Mega-Banette are all so rough for them it scarcely matters). The opponent can't even baton pass to Espeon to deal with the taunt; in a large majority of circumstances if you get it in against a non-Espeon then your opponent is just forced to restart the chain completely.

Prankster taunter is an interesting strategy to combat it but the ones that are used in OU is sabaleye and thundorus-i. Sabeleye I can see a case for it but the opportunity cost of giving thundous-i taunt instead of another coverage move is huge. Pokemon cannot thunder wave it so it doesn’t have to worry about that or being whirlwinded by a skarm since it already 1 hit kos it (assuming not in full health) and only useful on a roaring hippo if it does not carry ice fang or rock slide which is starting to become more common.

Third best thing is haze, though the opponent can taunt you out of being able to do it. After that CB Talonflame gets an honorable mention since it can always stop them unless they can get some defense boosts passed by Vaporeon or Zapdos prior to getting any speed boosts (since Talonflame is a dead stop to Scolipede/Ninjask being able to pass anything).

Haze polited/quagsire/greninja/xatu are the only viable pokemon I have seen. And even than greninja already suffers from 4 move syndrome so wasting a slot for haze which will only help against baton pass or maybe a cosmic power clefable. And even with haze it is possible for a bp team to play through it as seen in this replay

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-97474408

If you don't have any of the above things then you have to rely on smart play, hard hitters (Mega Mawile is good because it forces 50-50 guesses on all BP team defense boosters with SD just by hitting *that* hard), random taunters, perish song users, and Ditto, all of which aren't counters but have alright chances when used intelligently. A generally good strategy if you have access to it is to try and get some prior damage on Espeon, which is usually really easy since they're forced to bring it in to handle any whirlwind/taunt user that you've got. Then with some prior damage on it you can often take the stored power at the end with something that has a sash (BP teams rarely have hazards) and KO back with a special move, since if you played smart they probably acrued at most 2.5x special defense through calm minds. In particular blaze + sash + overheat mixed infernape sets are very good at this (some of them can even follow up with a mach punch after before they go out). But at this point you're actually letting baton pass teams play the game instead of just free-winning against them. Who wants that?

Hmm in most of the high lvl bp they make sure pokemon is always behind a substitute in the late game so ditto would not really help unless it transformed into an espeon with all the stat boosts. Also the only time a bp team attacks is usually with their espeon with a bunch of stat boost behind a sub so even sash infernape as you listed would not do much help. Surprise taunters to work but taunt only last for 3 turns and usually bp carry a mental herb or 1 attack move on all pokemon. And even though bp teams rarely carry stealth rocks it is the most common move used in competitive battling so a team will still have to prepare for it.

thanks for you input ^^ if there was anything i might of forgot to address of flaw in logic do tell.

[Reignited'Light]

Ok. So I don't always say something smart. But when I do, LOL I don't. :c

All seriousness here, Baton Pass isn't overpowered. It's just "Overwhelming" I would put it in. It takes more skill than Swagger/Prankster/SwagPlay, but it's shouldn't be allowed to stay. Like Slant said before, It's not skill. It's type advantage and abilities.

SwagSter/SwagPlay on the other Hand, It's safe to say that it's the most easiest thing to use. Why? It takes absolute no skill at all. Simple plan.

1. Swagger and hope your opponent hits itself.

2. Sub and Hope opponent hit Itself.

3. T wave and hope Opponent hit itself.

4. Foul Play Spam.

5. By the time step five comes, opponent will most likely snap out of confusion. Swagger again.

6. Repeat 1-5 Repeatedly.

Yeah. No fun. And if this keeps up, Pretty sure Xatu will see more usage. I don't see Espeon Viable for a counter because it's more frailer on the defensive side than Xatu I believe? And Xatu gets Heat Wave for Klefki (Super Effective), Whismicott (Super Effective), and Sableye to burn it. Oh and Roost>Morning Sun right?

But the problem is that Xatu will go down to a strong attack. It's meant to wall/check stuff like Ferrothorn, Foretress, and Skarmory. (WAO. Steel Types lmao)

Xatu can't also just spam roost when foul play is coming. Crits can happen and more often than not, Will put Xatu in danger.

I feel like I really said some stupid stuff that maybe didn't make any sense, but it's the best I got.

Baton Pass + SwagPlay/SwagSter = Unhealthy, Boring, and Dumb Metagame.

I mean, Isn't this is what Reborn is all about? Having fun while being competitive?

Yeah BP, and SwagPlaySters. GTFO

[Chevaleresse]

I just realized that a viable counter to Baton Pass might be a setup lead. Leading with a Sucker Punch abuser like Swords Dance Bisharp or Absol can do wonders, since they set up just as quickly as a BP team can rack up defensive boosts. They also hit and likely OHKO Espeon with Knock Off or Night Slash. Setup leads in general might be good because most BP teams don't seem to carry hazers or phazers, and usually their lead will not carry WoW/Toxic/Twave. Absol in particular is good because it can't be phazed and is immune to Stored Power, as well as being immune to status. Dragonite works to a lesser extent, since it gains boosts slower than Iron Defense, but it can set up with near impunity assuming a standard Scoliopede lead.

Swagger is literally uncounterable outside of Magic Bounce, Own Tempo, and maybe Lum Berry.

[Jory]

I just realized that a viable counter to Baton Pass might be a setup lead. Leading with a Sucker Punch abuser like Swords Dance Bisharp or Absol can do wonders, since they set up just as quickly as a BP team can rack up defensive boosts. They also hit and likely OHKO Espeon with Knock Off or Night Slash. Setup leads in general might be good because most BP teams don't seem to carry hazers or phazers, and usually their lead will not carry WoW/Toxic/Twave. Absol in particular is good because it can't be phazed and is immune to Stored Power, as well as being immune to status. Dragonite works to a lesser extent, since it gains boosts slower than Iron Defense, but it can set up with near impunity assuming a standard Scoliopede lead.

Swagger is literally uncounterable outside of Magic Bounce, Own Tempo, and maybe Lum Berry.

I didn't really have anything to add to the conversation before this, but now I just have two points that I'd like to clarify:

1) Although using a setup lead seems practical in theory, the simple fact is that most "setup leads" do much better lategame after their checks have been removed. Due to this, people tend to move these mons to slots 2-6 in their teams (at least in my experience). This gives a BP team a crucial turn of early setup if a switch is required, as most people would rather use a suicide leads (or other hazard-setting leads) than a setup lead that will likely result in them having to switch mons anyway. On the other side of this, if you do run a setup lead, you're leaving yourself open to threats like Landorus-T that can shred a setup lead with impunity and simply switch out the next turn. In my experience, especially considering the prominence of Speed Boosters on BP teams, the most reliable check to BP teams is the move Perish Song, which has relatively poor distribution and is only rarely seen more than once per team.

2) Swagger is not uncounterable. Yes, it's annoying, and we've all lost battles to hax before. I personally don't use Swagger unless I'm running Illumise (because Illumise > Arceus) because it's quite unreliable. Rather than thinking of it as a 50% chance to hurt myself, I think it's a 50% chance to land an attack with double the power at a higher risk to myself. In order to beat Swagger reliably, even without Heatran (Heatran > Illumise), a team should come prepared with both special attackers and physical attackers. This should go without saying, as a team that can only hit one side of the spectrum is going to lose to walls anyway. Provided special attackers such as Jolteon- ones with high special attack and low physical attack- are present and properly IV'd (0 IVs on special attackers), Swagplay has a hard time being effective.

While every team has its strengths and weaknesses, I'm of the opinion that Swagger is significantly easier to deal with than Baton Pass. Coming prepared for a Baton Pass team often means giving up moves that tend to be more effective against more popular strategies, which can hurt a team when it is not fighting a BP team. Coming prepared for a Swagger-based team simply means realizing that physical attackers should be used sparingly. And while it is infuriating, simply remember one thing: At least you're not this guy (skip to 1:20).

[Reignited'Light]

I just realized that a viable counter to Baton Pass might be a setup lead. Leading with a Sucker Punch abuser like Swords Dance Bisharp or Absol can do wonders, since they set up just as quickly as a BP team can rack up defensive boosts. They also hit and likely OHKO Espeon with Knock Off or Night Slash. Setup leads in general might be good because most BP teams don't seem to carry hazers or phazers, and usually their lead will not carry WoW/Toxic/Twave. Absol in particular is good because it can't be phazed and is immune to Stored Power, as well as being immune to status. Dragonite works to a lesser extent, since it gains boosts slower than Iron Defense, but it can set up with near impunity assuming a standard Scoliopede lead.

Swagger is literally uncounterable outside of Magic Bounce, Own Tempo, and maybe Lum Berry.

MAYBE you're right about the BP? Not sure. Because I tried that before. And failed. But I think it's just me then.

Lum berry is a somewhat stop. But T wave and Swagger attacks Lum berry. And You would only have ONE shot. But Magic Bounce users are really weak to Foul Play though. Well with 0 IV attack and minimum attacking nature, it should only do like 30%-40%?

[Cloud]

Swagger, is known all too well within the competitive realm of Pokemon to the extent where spamming it could guarantee a solid win. Like Ikaru said, swagger can be used in three different way, and abused. First is the Prankster+Swagger, where several Pokemon with the such ability are able to spam Swagger in hopes of successfully stalling it till it faints. Secondly, is the random choice of spamming Swagger and hoping that it will start a chain of "It hit itself" till said person wins. Lastly is Foul Play+Swagger, allowing user to spam Foul Play normally under the use of a sub. Such generic use of Swagger is often, but not always, used under the set of Substitute, Protect, Swagger, Foul Play. This set is for the Pokemon who have the ability Prankster. As you can tell, there is no thought put behind this for all one needs to do is start up with Swagger and proceed with Substitute, followed by the use of spamming Foul Play.

First of all, I'd like to say that your second point isn't a true measure of weighing Swagger's usability or accountability. Any move can be spammed in hopes that a "chain of 'it hit itself'" is started, such as attacks that nearly the same effect as Swagger (see: Confuse Ray, Dizzy Punch). The first and third points, however, are often used in conjuction and aren't necessarily separate entities. Liepard, Sableye, and Murkrow are some I can recall to mind using Swagger/Substitute/Foul Play combination, and other renditions of Swagger are seen by Klefki, usually used in conjuction with Thunder Wave, Foul Play, or both alongside screens. The latter is an almost assured setting up of screens and 90% will be carrying Light Clay so the team support is maxed. There's nearly no way around it unless you're carrying a Magic Bounce user and even if you predict the switch, screens will still be set up. Liepard/Sableye/Murkrow are easier to counter/check (by a slim margin) but I don't want to discuss individual Pokemon; I just wanted to reply to that post.

[Swimming95]

I also agree that Swagger should not be banned. Yes it does lead to some "hax" but it can make the match go both ways as said before and in absolutely no way can a coin flip be equivalent to a guaranteed win. Infiltrator can definitely help get around substitutes and there are plenty of common pokemon that run infiltrator (chandy and noivern) that can SE (in some regard) against the common prankster/swaggerers (sableye and klefki).

I also do not think BP should be banned. I definitely like the idea of the setup lead as stated before and good stall teams also do a pretty good job of countering BP. Also as a weird counter... wouldn't a quagsire or a clefable with unaware do wonders against BP?

At the very least, a simple ban (ie banning of the move) would be absolutely terrible. I would somewhat understand doing a complex ban (ie no more than x BPers or no more than x BPers and you can't use this move... etc). I feel like it is unreasonable to state that one type of team is more superior to other types of teams.

[Sapphire]

If it hasn't been said before, note that a lot of BP teams run ingrain, that stops things like Roar from working.

Why can't we do something like what happened in 3rd gen?

There, they limited Baton pass to 3 mons per team. We could do the same with swagger, and just limit it to one.

[Reignited'Light]

I also agree that Swagger should not be banned. Yes it does lead to some "hax" but it can make the match go both ways as said before and in absolutely no way can a coin flip be equivalent to a guaranteed win. Infiltrator can definitely help get around substitutes and there are plenty of common pokemon that run infiltrator (chandy and noivern) that can SE (in some regard) against the common prankster/swaggerers (sableye and klefki).

I also do not think BP should be banned. I definitely like the idea of the setup lead as stated before and good stall teams also do a pretty good job of countering BP. Also as a weird counter... wouldn't a quagsire or a clefable with unaware do wonders against BP?

At the very least, a simple ban (ie banning of the move) would be absolutely terrible. I would somewhat understand doing a complex ban (ie no more than x BPers or no more than x BPers and you can't use this move... etc). I feel like it is unreasonable to state that one type of team is more superior to other types of teams.

I know what you're trying to say. However, Infiltrator users are gonna be paralyzed while you like it or not. Just a step closer before it hits itself. Also to note, If they are a switch in, Chandelure and Noiveirn won't appreciate a T wave Like I said. And not all teams have pokes with Infiltrator. There are quite a few, but not many to say the least. And as of right now, there are only 3 Viable Magic Bouncers. (Natu can be the 4th one, but Xatu is there...)

I don't think Banning the move Baton Pass as a whole is good. Like you said, just limiting the BPers to like 2-3 is good. It's "superior" because BP chains aren't about skill. It's only about Type advantage.

If it hasn't been said before, note that a lot of BP teams run ingrain, that stops things like Roar from working.

Why can't we do something like what happened in 3rd gen?

There, they limited Baton pass to 3 mons per team. We could do the same with swagger, and just limit it to one.

Yeah. Ingrain now stops the "phazing" from attacks, including Dragon Tail I believe.

True. But the fact still remains a coin flip. and added to Paralysis chance, It's 30% chance that you can break out of the Paralysis, AND Confusion. That 30% is equal to a scald Burn rate. And Scald burns are common and lead to doom.

And has anybody ever even used a whole team of 6 SwagPlays? (Yeah on Reborn, but only to show the power of it's luck)

Either you hit yourself or you don't. And that's not what people are looking for when battling.

[Chevaleresse]

I didn't really have anything to add to the conversation before this, but now I just have two points that I'd like to clarify:

1) Although using a setup lead seems practical in theory, the simple fact is that most "setup leads" do much better lategame after their checks have been removed. Due to this, people tend to move these mons to slots 2-6 in their teams (at least in my experience). This gives a BP team a crucial turn of early setup if a switch is required, as most people would rather use a suicide leads (or other hazard-setting leads) than a setup lead that will likely result in them having to switch mons anyway. On the other side of this, if you do run a setup lead, you're leaving yourself open to threats like Landorus-T that can shred a setup lead with impunity and simply switch out the next turn. In my experience, especially considering the prominence of Speed Boosters on BP teams, the most reliable check to BP teams is the move Perish Song, which has relatively poor distribution and is only rarely seen more than once per team.

2) Swagger is not uncounterable. Yes, it's annoying, and we've all lost battles to hax before. I personally don't use Swagger unless I'm running Illumise (because Illumise > Arceus) because it's quite unreliable. Rather than thinking of it as a 50% chance to hurt myself, I think it's a 50% chance to land an attack with double the power at a higher risk to myself. In order to beat Swagger reliably, even without Heatran (Heatran > Illumise), a team should come prepared with both special attackers and physical attackers. This should go without saying, as a team that can only hit one side of the spectrum is going to lose to walls anyway. Provided special attackers such as Jolteon- ones with high special attack and low physical attack- are present and properly IV'd (0 IVs on special attackers), Swagplay has a hard time being effective.

While every team has its strengths and weaknesses, I'm of the opinion that Swagger is significantly easier to deal with than Baton Pass. Coming prepared for a Baton Pass team often means giving up moves that tend to be more effective against more popular strategies, which can hurt a team when it is not fighting a BP team. Coming prepared for a Swagger-based team simply means realizing that physical attackers should be used sparingly. And while it is infuriating, simply remember one thing: At least you're not this guy (skip to 1:20).

Jolteon is a poor example, since Jolteon's defenses are akin to the defenses of the average mosquito. Swagger is uncounterable because you can't do anything to prevent it or manipulate it beyond the things I mentioned. You could out-priority it - but Klefki resists every move with a greater priority than swagger and has good defenses. Sableye is immune. You could switch in something weird like a Lum Berry Garchomp to take advantage of a swagger boost - but many Klefkis run Air Balloon and can still swagger again on the next turn. It's uncounterable because you have a 50/50 chance of losing an entire turn and then some, unless you run something like Oblivious Slowbro. Since this is literally the only reason to run Oblivious Slowbro barring some Attract gimmicks, and nothing else that is viable is a counter, Swagger+Prankster should be banned.

[Sapphire]

I've never seen an Air Baloon Klefki...ever. Also, people keep going on about swagger being a coinflip, but luck has been a part of the game since day 1. Paralysis, sleep, freeze, etc. even crits.

[Reignited'Light]

I've never seen an Air Baloon Klefki...ever. Also, people keep going on about swagger being a coinflip, but luck has been a part of the game since day 1. Paralysis, sleep, freeze, etc. even crits.

Well Air ballon is there.

Sleep is not "hax" first thing I want to point out. Sleep is a mechanic. And so is everything. From Status, to Crits. EVERYTHING. What is hax is if it's a Secondary effect. Or if you are not thawing out/being Paralyzed all the time. But the reason there's not much complaint is because...

1. They're healed

2. Crits don't always come (1/16 chance I believe so)

3. Status are everywhere. You're never going to avoid it.

Reasons that SwagPlay is complained

1. Only Luck based. Not Skilled based.

2. Confusion hax. Has to be switched out. Gives the opponent a free turn or otherwise, risk hitting yourself from a CHUNK of damage.

3. It's Predictable. But There's not much counters that can actually hurt FoulPlayers back.

So yeah.

[Moony]

yeah slant already said my thoughts on bp

- respectable user Mata Hari on Smogon

but seriously, there's nothing competitive about swagger, it makes the game coinflips every turn and with paralysis from klefki and other mons, the chance of actually breaking through and attacking the opp is even lower. don't forget about the fact that even if you try to switch and stall the other person out, there's hazards to deal with, deo-d can set them up etc. and if the opponent is running a ditto, they can copy your boosts and turn them against, giving swagger playstyles a win condition to your attackers. why would you want to keep it? it's very uncompetitive, forces the game in 50 50s, and you don't need any skill to run it

also, for infiltrator mons, there are basically no viable pokemon to run it on, noivern and chandelure are bad in the metagame and if you're just running them just to counter swagger, it's overcentralizing the metagame, which is not something we want.

lastly, for saying luck is already part of the game, that's all good and dandy but the fact is swagger is uncompetitive, it forces the games into coinflips and doesn't take any skill to use, just click swagger, nothing to it

Edited June 1, 2014 by Moony

[Sapphire]

The same could be said of other things. We might as well ban confusion in it's entirety. Besides, I don't recall prankswag being an issue in 5th gen. It seems to me this is more of a Klefki issue, in which case just ban Klefki and we can go back to using Sableyes.