Baton pass and Swagger? ~Voting Ends June 25th~

[Tacos]

Swagger can be incredibly annoying but can be solved by quite a few things. First, we have Prankster or outspeeding Taunt. Second, we have Magic Bounce. Third, we have a luck based ability known as Wonder Skin. With Wonder Skin, the accuracy of Swagger would be 50%. Fourth, for those who use special attackers, always make sure your attack stat is as minimized as possible to get the least possible amount of damage dealt to yourself by swagger. Fifth, throw a Lum Berry on your physical attackers from time to time if you're truly afraid of dealing massive damage to yourself from swagger. Swagger + Lum Berry = Profit.

However, swagger can be incredibly devastating when luck isn't on your side. When having such high stat boosts and a lack of defense, any hyper offensive physical attacker could easily ohko itself with confusion. Not much more I can say about its effects as that's all there is to it.

Baton pass, also, can easily be foiled by a few simple things. Once again we have a Prankster or outspeeding Taunt. Baton pass is incredibly situational. For example, smeargle using a shell smash could be difficult to track what pokemon could switch. But dragon dancers, swords dancers, belly drummers, or nasty plotters can make it much more easy to predict what might come in from the baton pass. For example, a belly drummed smeargle would baton pass to a salamence. If you have your greninja, let's say, you can easily ohko the brought in salamence, ruining the train. Prediction is the easiest way to destroy a train aside from taunt.

So all of these moves are easily preventable, so I doubt they truly need to be removed for any reason.

[Shamitako]

BP is a lot harder than that. But yes, you can kill it. I find that I can usually get almost everything down to below half health, but then there's enough boosts for my opponent to take me down

And yeah, Double Team isn't banned because luck. It's banned because once you get going, you become nearly impossibubble to hit (And <3 Ninjask spam, lol)

[Greed_Demon]

im a baton pass user myself with scolipede and espeon and I know from experience that it does take strategy to pull off.`Even though I only have two on my team that use it I still have to predict the taunts and shit so I can switch to espeon. I dont have my whole team use batton pass though but I did go against people with a team of them and to be honest it was fun. You just got to take them out before they can boost that much or set up your own things on them. I also went up against a team full of prankster ,swagger, and other annoying things and that was an amazing battle of luck. And I liked it, maybe its because of my love of gambling or something. The swagger user has a 50% chance of it backfiring on them though if they swagger your physical attacker and I love it when I crush them with the free attack boost.

[Chevaleresse]

People are talking about minimizing attack on special attackers like it isn't common sense.

[Shamitako]

Obviously it's not. Because I didn't know it was a thing until this discussion >:c

And seriously, is that all you have to say? :/

[Sapphire]

Minimizing attack on special attackers has been standard top-tier play since generation 3...

[Shamitako]

Well I'm a n00b >_< And also actually pretty new, I've only been in competitive battling since Gen VI Though I studied it a lot in Gen V

[Kamina]

I think has been stated about BP and swagger to justify a vote on if we should remove it or not. Added a poll. Make sure you read everyone's responses first.

[Chevaleresse]

I'll mention that I think banning Prankster and Swagger as a combination would be better than a flat ban, though I certainly wouldn't miss the move being gone.

[Swimming95]

I would also see reason for that... my guess is that if these pass, we should open up a few votes on how exactly they should be banned as there are certainly many many ways a BP ban would go

[Doj]

>worrying about swagger more than confuse ray

Literally what

If you're going to ban swagger, then ban any move that has a random number generation related to it. Ban everyone who gets a lucky critical hit as well

It's a luck based move and Pokemon is a LOT about luck. It makes little sense to ban just this single move without giving everything else equal treatment.

Or instead make a seperate OU tier where such moves are all in fact banned, with zero crit chance in moves and such, no immobilization by paralysis, a set number of moves required to thaw or wake up from sleep.

[Kamina]

hmm? We are voting to get swagger banned because of its usage in the OU ladder in reborn. If people start complaining about confuse ray than we will also put it on a vote. Critical hits are not controlled by either parties and paralysis is a status condition which got nerfed by not even affecting electric Pokemon any more or most ground Pokemon. But if there ever comes a time when a bunch of people say paralysis is to OP (which i don't think will ever happen) than we can put a vote on that.

[Shamitako]

The "problem" with Swagger, is that it boosts their attack, so they do more damage to themselves

It's not about it being luck-based, if it were I'd be throwing a fit about things seem to be going

[Kiozo]

Hi there. Sorry I'm late to the party; I've only had time (and remembered since busy) when forums didn't let me post about it. Anyway my thoughts;

Edit: Don't take anything said here as a personal attack; I'm addressing the thought not the person and last thing I need is another person misconstruing it I love you all <3

anyways i think that HO, which is a very common and diverse playstyle, has absolutely no way to beat klefki without luming every single one of their pokemon or they will still possibly lose at least 1 pokemon depending on a coin flip. stall meta = stale meta

Yeah a SD talonflame could beat bp but why would you lead with a set up talonflame?

In a thread about centralization; if you're going to say "This playstyle is extremely common. This strategy counters it, so let's remove it, because the other playstyle is bad" Then you're honestly just adding opinion as if it were fact, and on top of it you're saying one thing is very common, or overcentralized, but instead let us take out a counter? That seems like it makes no sense to me. In fact; Klefki's supportive nature is hardly seen anymore as stall has taken a sharp decline, it's just that Klefki is a good counter to things that have taken precedence in the metagame, so it got used. That's how a metagame works as an intrinsic aspect; you have things rise in popularity to combat other things. As a side note to the first piece, stall is also a legitimate strategy and should be treated like such.

Why would you lead with a set up sweeper? I can safely say that mentalities like that are what lead to a stale meta because what it does; it promotes a pattern, and says anything that is an outlier to the pattern isn't acceptable, and must be removed. To address the point within a Pokémon sense; Set up sweepers actually can do a decent job at hurting your opponent when they would otherwise be unable to react; instead of using the time to act supportively. For example; I used a team where I had two set up sweepers. There was a core stall segment that functioned in the mid game. Early, I would get one sweeper out on turn two, set up (one had Agility, one Rain Dance) and I would proceed to put a dent in the opponents team, usually finding a way to get multiple Pokémon eliminated. After, I used the core to combat the opponent's remaining Pokémon, set myself up to prey on the opposing holes I made, and when I had the perfect turn set up, I switched and finished sweeping. It's quite different from the standard setup, which is to use other Pokémon first, and then go in with a set up sweeper late only, but it was very effective. The only difference here would be having a lead do it; which to me isn't unrealistic at all. I remember when Shell Smash Cloyster was popular after all as a lead; was quite the challenge. It can definitely give you a different benefit though.

When you consider a ban on something, there are two main factors to consider:

1. Does it over centralize the metagame in any way?
2. Is it reliant on a factor other than player skill?

The answer for both Swagger+Prankster and Baton Pass is yes for either question. For the first, Swagger has only niche counters that would not see use outside of countering it; namely, Own Tempo and to a lesser extent Magic Bounce and Lum Berry. When team building, a player is forced to use one of these or a stall team to counter Swagger or be at the mercy of the RNG. For Baton Pass as it exists currently, it's the same story. Setup leads are almost always a bad idea, and have only been seriously considered as a BP counter. Haze is literally never suggested on this forum outside of countering BP, but without it, your team is helpless. The same goes for Unaware Quagsire and Clefable.


Neither requires any skill. Swagger users don't need to predict switch-ins or moves; they just follow a set formula that literally does not change at all based on lineup. Baton Pass takes marginally more skill, but in the end similarly follows a set pattern that mostly disregards matchups and requires no prediction of any sort, since a BP user can always have the advantage on a switch unless hit with a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch.

Lot's to address in this one.

Firstly; it takes player skill to teambuild. A lot of people claim it doesn't, or overlook the fact that it does, and I can't comprehend why. One well placed aspect to your team, that otherwise wouldn't be a particular note, can increase your win rate by an astounding amount. It takes skill to realize where that lies and how that will change. There's also a lot of things that people just cookie cutter as well; moves and items being the most notorious. Leftovers and Life Orbs literally are the metagame right now. Add the occasional thing like Focus Sash, which is frail Magic Guard or Leads, Choice items which are not spammable on teams with the same effect, and maybe the rouge weather rock for a specific weather team in this gen? That's terrible in comparison to the amount of items out there.

Addressing both the same and next points, Lum berries are extremely useful. It's hard to find a spot for a good Cleric (Heal Bell/Aromatherapy users), and sometimes you don't need one for every Pokémon, or it wouldn't be as quick as you need. That's why Lum berry was a popular pick back in gen 4, and very commonly would turn momentum in that users favor. It's a free switch in, and on top of that, if it's Swagger, would be a free +2 attack. A free switch is inherently amazing for HO. +2 attack can go a long way for HO. Instant removal of a debuff for one turn can make the entire difference. So why is that such a bad thing overall? It's not; and people just don't deviate from the current 2+3 item standard.

Magic Bounce is a niche pick...why? Clearly, it's not just a Swagger counter if it's being used on the other teams to counter things like hazards, phasing, status, and more. It's preventing the opponent from using anything but attack moves or else they take it. More free switch-ins, and debuffs on opponents to boot? Count me in.

I covered the prior set-up lead idea already...if you want something new; take Infernape. If BP teams are cookie cutter, that means Smeargle is the lead. Smeargle gets outsped by Infernape. Infernape can take Fake Out to break opposing Focus Sashes. Infernape can take Taunt to prevent leads from setting up, Stealth Rock to set up support itself, or crush the opposition with moves like Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, Close Combat or more. It takes out a surprisingly large amount of things, isn't forced to lose to Taunt/Magic Guard users, take Burn status (Sableye leads), can provide it's own support, can prevent opposing leads from functioning, and above all, it's versatile. Incredible how useful it is, but people will find some way to denote it into a bad spot because it's not standard and 'has to be used as a counter niche'. I can pull up common gen 4 strats all day that weren't counter-specific.

Unaware Quagsire and Clefable also being niche...huh? Admittedly, Magic Guard Clefable is more popular, but Unaware is definitely existent, and Unaware Quagsire was used often as a general purpose opposition to stat boosts, mostly HO Swords Dancers, Dragon Dancers and the like. In such a HO saturated metagame, I don't see why you wouldn't want one of those. Clefable doesn't need Magic Guard to function as an anti-set up wall.

As far as following that set pattern and not responding to opponents, I can't say I agree. Swagger users can't reset the same old swagger pattern over and over on targets that switch, it would require little effort to get rid of the entry hazards that were placed (If they even were in the first place), and if the user gets constant damage on the enemy (for example, Toxic Spikes placement, Leech Seed, Will-o-Wisp) it's a matter of time before hitting the switch button wins a game. That is something that is hard to do? That's something that I would laugh my way to the bank with every time. Even if you're Hyper Offensive in teambuilding, Toxic Spikes can help you set things up for the sweeps you want, along with other hazards, Will-o-Wisp or other burns function well to stop revenge killers that use priority (or retaliate) and above all, Utility on HO teams might sound weird but it's just as necessary as an attack on a stall team; it has a specific purpose to serve, and gives you a lot more versatility and can make you more intimidating. To round up the prediction theory; I was running versus a Baton Pass team earlier. I failed to predict the opponents Protect, which allowed them to read into my Roar. That one turn won the enemy the game, because instead of speeding into a BP chain, they decided to scout out the opponent by using an intelligent move. However, if I had used an attack instead, they might not assume Roar, and instead might predict differently, allowing me to Roar successfully and gain momentum as such a large part of the chain fell apart. Was Roar standard on my team? Definitely. Was Roar known by the enemy? No. Was Protect known by me? Yes. I failed to react accordingly which is why I lost, not 'the enemy has a cookie cutter movement pattern so I lost'.

50/50 chance is not a good chance but if it really was that bad than no one would ever use it and yet it is pretty popular. If opponent switch to electric or ground pokemon you can still spam swagger and rely on the rng while the opponent also has to hope that he won't have to hit himself.

I'm sorry..but there's needing of a single train of thought here... if it's not a good chance for one party, how is it good for another? That's literally the same chance on both sides, that shouldn't be considered different.

Ttar is usually fine even with max Attack IVs. And with its defenses, it can usually tank even its own hits for the first two Swaggers

Talonflame is also incredibly handy for taking out Klefki and Sableye especially. The former can't take Flare Blitzes, the latter can't inflict permanent status. Though my Whimsicott can usually take it if it's been paralyzed beforehand

Bisharp is also quite nasty if the opponent can use it well, though Klefki needn't fear it

Banded Scizors are evil with U-Turn. Noivern can take out one of my Pranksters, but usually get Paralyzed and is useless for the remainder of the battle

As before, anything stall oriented

Chansey takes anything below 400HP since subs and nonexistant attack

Volcarona is okay at stopping Klefki and Sableye, but Thundurus kinda murders it and it can only take one out. It's also the only thing I've ever seen a Lum berry on outside Ubers

As mentioned previously, Rotom-W is death

Mandibuzz wrecks things with Taunt and Knock Off. I can confuse it, but it tanks its own hits quite well. And as long as it gets a hit off withing the first three turns, it can usually down subs and either force a switch to Banette, or remove leftovers on whatever is out. I've been forced on multiple occasions to down Banette just to remove a pesky Mandibuzz

Porygon2 isn't around too much, but it has good defenses and oft carries Mirror Coat, allowing one with good skills to outplay my Pranksters

Scarf Ditto is annoying as ever. It can out Swagger my Pranksters and retreat immediately for something else (like Rotom-W >_>) To take advantage of my confusion/loss of momentum do to switching

Mega Mawile is annoying, esp. with TR support. Since then it outspeeds my Foul Plays. But its massive attack means in won't last many of its own hits. Azumarill is largely the same, but swapping TR for Aqua Jet

Jolteon and mega Manetric are both okay, but they have weak defenses, so Foul Play usually shreds them

Dusclops can't really heal, but as long as Sableye doesn't tag it with Will-O-Wisp, it can usually PP stall a lot of my Swaggers away

Speaking of PP stall, RestTalk Suicune shreds my Pranksters. They can do like nothing to it, and it can even remove the status I inflict on it with T-Wave/Will-O-Wisp, all the while forcing them to sacrifice precious Swaggers and Subs to keep it from KOing/Burning them with Scald. That's another one I have to leave to Banette

Contrary Serperior is the worst, thankfully T-Wave can usually keep it from being too much of a thing since it annihilates its Speed

And of course, Magic Bounce:

As always, Espeon can be annoying. Esp. if it swaps in when I'm Swaggering and not behind a Sub. It forces a switch, or me risking harming myself, while it can set up with Calm Minds or drop some screens. Though Foul Play does still do quite a bit of damage to its meager defense stat

Xatu has been used specifically to counter PrankSwag, so enough said. It even kills my Espeon (who I run to mess with people expecting all Pranksters

Absol sucks against Foul Play. Dies in one hit after a Swords Dance, and probs two without. Further, it can't do shit to Klefki without said Swords Dance. There's a reason I'm the only person that uses it >_<

So there's my niche counters. I think Own Tempo is also a thing? Avalugg usually has Sturdy tho. And Smeargle, while it has surprised me once or twice when I forgot about it (Own Tempo is that little of a thing), simply cannot take a couple Foul Plays, and if it's got Spore I can always just swap to Espeon and put it to sleep, thus removing it

I just posted that one to say thank you, for coming up with examples (some new some old) and telling how much damage they can do to a team of them, because suffice to say almost any team that's using this strat legitimately would only use one. (read: anyone not trying to get it banned by being annoying, and also not you because you're actually legitimately aiming to make that team work based off of things you like.) If they only use one, we have a gauge on how effective it'll be.

Anywho; restore content is amazing on the forums <3 but it also is why the quoted from ____ didn't show up. I gotta go again or I would post more, so I'll see what's what after. I already voted btw.

[Chevaleresse]

I'm sorry, but even with a Lum Berry, you're still getting swaggered or thunder waved on the next turn. And please explain how pasting a BP team into PO or clicking Swagger until someone beats themselves to death takes skill.

[Shamitako]

I just posted that one to say thank you, for coming up with examples (some new some old) and telling how much damage they can do to a team of them, because suffice to say almost any team that's using this strat legitimately would only use one. (read: anyone not trying to get it banned by being annoying, and also not you because you're actually legitimately aiming to make that team work based off of things you like.) If they only use one, we have a gauge on how effective it'll be.

Danke ^^ I've gotten a lot of experience playing with it, it probs needs changed so I have a proper counter for Xatu and Rotom-W (The two most common problems for me) Banette could go since it rarely actually kills much. Though I haven't bothered since the whole thing may be null soon

I've been abusing my Prankster team lately since Swagger may be banned soon. and suffice to say, I've gone ~4:6 wins:losses

One thing I've found is that, whether Swagger gets banned or not, my team is incapable of handling the standard meta right now (running a bunch of standard Pranksters with a couple surprises so it's not totally wrecked by any singular counter) the only member that still manages to fend off entire teams is Whimsicott (which doesn't have Swagger BTW, though it does rely on a bit of luck with stun Spore or Klefki/Thundurus Paralyzing the foe beforehand) The best part is when it murders Talonflames XD

So at the very least, I can argue against the luck aspect and the OP aspect. If you still wish to ban it for the lack of skill aspect, then I have no true arguments to counter you. As many who use PrankSwag are not truly skilled and just use it because it works, just as many people use CB Talonflame because they're easy to use and require little skill (And they've been told it's good obvs)

[Cowtao]

***DISCLAIMER RIGHT OUT DA GATE

I'm gonna go all preachy and be incredible decisive with my reaction. This is in no offense to try and harm people for their own opinions because I may or may not have missed something, but this is entirely based off of data that I personally got. Your experience is different from mine and I fully respect that. Onto the verdict.

Oh boy.

Y'all put some pretty clean arguments up i'll admit. Thing is though with as much talk about team building and making a team to counter a play style, the same could be said towards any prankster really. Even I, speaking as someone who remark'd on how powerful a full SwagPlay team is. No real sane person would dare ladder with a SwagPlay team. The tactic is highly averaged on a coin flip of 50%/50%.

This doesn't mean it gets a free-pass. When you usually see Klefki and Sableye or even other popular prankster users such as Liepard and Whimsicott in a line up either by themselves or together, they usually have someone covering their weakness. There is also some issues with some of the things that Kyra said were Checks or Counters towards SwagPlay. I'll list of some reasons why based on research from playing matches on Showdown, Reborn, and PO Main.

Ttar is usually fine even with max Attack IVs. And with its defenses, it can usually tank even its own hits for the first two Swaggers

The only real partner to SwagPlay that can beat Ttar that's relatively common is M-Scizor. This is a decent check towards SwagPlay, however it has to watch out for Whimsicott.

Talonflame is also incredibly handy for taking out Klefki and Sableye especially. The former can't take Flare Blitzes, the latter can't inflict permanent status. Though my Whimsicott can usually take it if it's been paralyzed beforehand

Only CB Talonflame can really knock out Sableye and Klefki but not together. Talonflame is locked into a move giving another SwagPlayer or another 'mon the opportunity to take advantage of this such as Landorus, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Heatran. It also can be heavily crippled by Thunder-Wave.

Bisharp is also quite nasty if the opponent can use it well, though Klefki needn't fear it

Bisharp is mediocre as a Will-O-Wisp from Sableye can effectively nullify this thing to oblivion. Even at +2 it's chance to OHKO Klefki is 18.8% with LO. BlackGlasses doesn't even come close. It does however OHKO other pranksters not named Klefki unless Burned with LO only. (It has a chance to OHKO Sableye by 50% on a Switch-In unless Burned)

Banded Scizors are evil with U-Turn. Noivern can take out one of my Pranksters, but usually get Paralyzed and is useless for the remainder of the battle

Banded Scizor is not a common sight while Noivern could potential take a hit from Whimsicott due to it's Fairy Typing and resisting one of it's strongest moves, Draco Meteor.

Chansey takes anything below 400HP since subs and nonexistant attack

Almost all SwagPlayers run Taunt. If you aren't running Taunt on Whimsicott, Sableye, Klefki, you are doing something wrong. There is a very small crowd of people who use Seismic Toss on Chansey as they prefer options of Utility such as Heal Bell, Soft-Boiled, Thunder-Wave, Stealth Rock. It is also completely shut down by Sableye due to it's Ghost-Typing.

Volcarona is okay at stopping Klefki and Sableye, but Thundurus kinda murders it and it can only take one out. It's also the only thing I've ever seen a Lum berry on outside Ubers

This is a wildcard as Volcarona is still somewhat popular. It has the options to run Lefties, LO, or Lum Berry like D-Nite. This is a decent check.

As mentioned previously, Rotom-W is death

Rotom-W's saving graces are RestoChesto, Will-O-Wisp, and Pain Split but even with a Will-O-Wisp to riddle down SwagPlay users, this generation doesn't see Rotom-W as the attacking dish washer he once was and more often to not runs a defensive set. His HP isn't very high anyway so it kinda loses out in the grand scheme, especially against Whimsicott.

Mandibuzz wrecks things with Taunt and Knock Off. I can confuse it, but it tanks its own hits quite well. And as long as it gets a hit off withing the first three turns, it can usually down subs and either force a switch to Banette, or remove leftovers on whatever is out. I've been forced on multiple occasions to down Banette just to remove a pesky Mandibuzz

I'm not attacking this one. Mandibuzz is THE face that SwagPlay users fear.

Porygon2 isn't around too much, but it has good defenses and oft carries Mirror Coat, allowing one with good skills to outplay my Pranksters

The hell Porygon2 set did you run into? >><< Joke aside, eh. Porygon2 often prefers to have a Defensive Duck set, Trick Room, or 3 Attacks + Recover. It really has no room for Mirror Coat.

Scarf Ditto is annoying as ever. It can out Swagger my Pranksters and retreat immediately for something else (like Rotom-W >_>) To take advantage of my confusion/loss of momentum do to switching

Ditto is EXTREMELY uncommon. Like...On a handful have I ever seen Ditto in a serious OU environment. It's somewhat enjoyed success in RU/NU but it has no place as a serious addition into an OU team as most attackers are either running Choice Items or have naturally great power abilities such as Landorus-I, Keldeo, Charizard-Y.

Mega Mawile is annoying, esp. with TR support. Since then it outspeeds my Foul Plays. But its massive attack means in won't last many of its own hits. Azumarill is largely the same, but swapping TR for Aqua Jet

This is another decent check. Mega Mawile's insane power already damages out Klefki and Whimsicott. It has to be careful under a sub but even burned can OHKO with Play Rough. It will cripple M-Mawile so it's to be noted.

Jolteon and mega Manetric are both okay, but they have weak defenses, so Foul Play usually shreds them

Jolteon is uncommon and arguably outclassed by other Electric-Types that it isn't relevant compared to Thundurus-I, Raikou, Mega-Man. Mega-Manectric's only saving grace is Overheat which has the chance to miss.

Dusclops can't really heal, but as long as Sableye doesn't tag it with Will-O-Wisp, it can usually PP stall a lot of my Swaggers away

Dusclops is uncommon as hell. We need to beat whoever thought Dusclops was still viable in the head with a hammer. :I As Dusclops itself, it's a surprisingly bulky but even it's bulk isn't enough with it's lack of Recovery outside of Pain Split.

Speaking of PP stall, RestTalk Suicune shreds my Pranksters. They can do like nothing to it, and it can even remove the status I inflict on it with T-Wave/Will-O-Wisp, all the while forcing them to sacrifice precious Swaggers and Subs to keep it from KOing/Burning them with Scald. That's another one I have to leave to Banette

Another wildcard. Honorable mention also goes to RestTalk Manaphy. Despite both of their respectable bulk, it will be overcome with enough Foul Plays and Swaggers. Sleep Talk is a dangerous tool to look out for though.

Contrary Serperior is the worst, thankfully T-Wave can usually keep it from being too much of a thing since it annihilates its Speed

I can't say much towards this as Contrary Serperior is unreleased in other areas but based on some matches I have done on Pokemon Reborn, Contrary Serperior isn't common enough to warrant it much use. This also applies to Contrary Malamar. It's not dat gud Swimming. >

As always, Espeon can be annoying. Esp. if it swaps in when I'm Swaggering and not behind a Sub. It forces a switch, or me risking harming myself, while it can set up with Calm Minds or drop some screens. Though Foul Play does still do quite a bit of damage to its meager defense stat

Espeon almost religiously runs a Dual-Screen set. Even behind a wall, Espeon has the worst defensive stats against SwagPlay so it will get annihilated with enough Foul Plays.

Xatu has been used specifically to counter PrankSwag, so enough said. It even kills my Espeon (who I run to mess with people expecting all Pranksters

'Nuff Said

+2 0- Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 320-380 (95.8 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Absol sucks against Foul Play. Dies in one hit after a Swords Dance, and probs two without. Further, it can't do shit to Klefki without said Swords Dance. There's a reason I'm the only person that uses it >_<

You would be correct to say that Mega-Absol is very rarely used. It's usage is more or less into UU with barely any serious consideration to use it in an OU Environment. It's also frail #doe.

So there's my niche counters. I think Own Tempo is also a thing? Avalugg usually has Sturdy tho. And Smeargle, while it has surprised me once or twice when I forgot about it (Own Tempo is that little of a thing), simply cannot take a couple Foul Plays, and if it's got Spore I can always just swap to Espeon and put it to sleep, thus removing it

Avalugg ain't got no time for Own Tempo. Smeargle is interesting however as it is common place for a lot of teams, even without BP such as SmashPass, Status Spreader.

As you can see, not a lot of options really stick out except Mandibuzz. Even if Mandibuzz does get a lot more usage people will gradually shift over to things like Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, or Excadrill to counter Mandibuzz. You gotta understand that if something becomes popular, people will try to find ways to remove it. At the same time when a removal effect proves effective, resistance will grow back.

[Shamitako]

Well, aside from Dusclops and M-Manetric (I just assumed that ran basically the same as Jolteon, aside from oft having Flamethrower) these are all threats I've faced before, most at least three times. I just listed the things that give my team trouble

The top threats being:
Rotom-W
RestTalk Suicune (Though yes it has to switch every once in a while)
Mandibuzz

And Tyranitar

Obviously I can hinder two of those if I sacrifice a slot on Sableye or Thundurus for Taunt. But even then, they're still quite deadly

I suppose I could just seriously be that bad, but from my experience, my Pranksters are only truly hard to beat for those who are impatient

And even then, most of my wins are hard earned. There's not just some formula. I can't just Swagger, T-Wave (unless Ground/Electric), sub until they hit themselves, then Foul Play. I've tried that, if they switch at the wrong point, you're screwed. And if they switch to Rotom-W at any point, you're screwed >_< (In case I haven't made it abundantly clear, my Prankster's and I hate Rotom-W)

EDIT: though if you predict their switch and are prepared for it, you've got a shot. But if they predict your prediction then you might be in trouble again. But then if you predict they predicted you'd predict... Etc, there's a lot of prediction >_< Sableye is a bit easier, since Will-O-Wisp generally stops my main problem

EDIT 2: Okay, Gliscor is pretty bad too. At +2 Klefki's Foul Plays don't take out its subs. And at +4 it only does %20 when hurting itself (or at least the one I'm facing) Thankfully, it can't do shit to Thundurus if it's only running EQ as an attack. AND NVM, just murdered Thundurus by outpredicting me and ladning a Toxic...

Edited June 12, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Kiozo]

I'm sorry, but even with a Lum Berry, you're still getting swaggered or thunder waved on the next turn. And please explain how pasting a BP team into PO or clicking Swagger until someone beats themselves to death takes skill.

I'm sorry, but you can do things with your time that you're not wasting. If you literally copy and paste something into the game, yeah that's not the fault of Baton Pass. People will go to ANY kind of thing that people say is OP, and repeat this process. I've seen people on Reborn literally say "hey go to an RMT and copy it to learn". So I don't desire to validate your statement whatsoever when it's a player mentality, not a game balancing mechanic.

On Swagger, I already talked about that last post so that's fun.

Reply to bigger post comes when I can type longer...as in Friday...?

[Chevaleresse]

I'm sorry, but you can do things with your time that you're not wasting. If you literally copy and paste something into the game, yeah that's not the fault of Baton Pass. People will go to ANY kind of thing that people say is OP, and repeat this process. I've seen people on Reborn literally say "hey go to an RMT and copy it to learn". So I don't desire to validate your statement whatsoever when it's a player mentality, not a game balancing mechanic.

On Swagger, I already talked about that last post so that's fun.

Reply to bigger post comes when I can type longer...as in Friday...?

But to use a stall team, for example, you still need to know what matchups are good and which aren't, and when to switch, when to status, etc. Baton Pass, as stated, is super formulaic, and basically amounts to spamming setup moves until you OHKO everything, while occasionally baton passing to Espeon to block status.

[Kamina]

In a thread about centralization; if you're going to say "This playstyle is extremely common. This strategy counters it, so let's remove it, because the other playstyle is bad" Then you're honestly just adding opinion as if it were fact, and on top of it you're saying one thing is very common, or overcentralized, but instead let us take out a counter? That seems like it makes no sense to me. In fact; Klefki's supportive nature is hardly seen anymore as stall has taken a sharp decline, it's just that Klefki is a good counter to things that have taken precedence in the metagame, so it got used. That's how a metagame works as an intrinsic aspect; you have things rise in popularity to combat other things. As a side note to the first piece, stall is also a legitimate strategy and should be treated like such.

Why would you lead with a set up sweeper? I can safely say that mentalities like that are what lead to a stale meta because what it does; it promotes a pattern, and says anything that is an outlier to the pattern isn't acceptable, and must be removed. To address the point within a Pokémon sense; Set up sweepers actually can do a decent job at hurting your opponent when they would otherwise be unable to react; instead of using the time to act supportively. For example; I used a team where I had two set up sweepers. There was a core stall segment that functioned in the mid game. Early, I would get one sweeper out on turn two, set up (one had Agility, one Rain Dance) and I would proceed to put a dent in the opponents team, usually finding a way to get multiple Pokémon eliminated. After, I used the core to combat the opponent's remaining Pokémon, set myself up to prey on the opposing holes I made, and when I had the perfect turn set up, I switched and finished sweeping. It's quite different from the standard setup, which is to use other Pokémon first, and then go in with a set up sweeper late only, but it was very effective. The only difference here would be having a lead do it; which to me isn't unrealistic at all. I remember when Shell Smash Cloyster was popular after all as a lead; was quite the challenge. It can definitely give you a different benefit though.

By common and diverse I mean there are many pokemon and options to build a team to be heavy offensive while stall and semi stall use a smaller variety of pokemon and are not as diverse as HO. Yes HO is common but it also has the most diversity in it and getting rid of that diversity is over centralizing the metagame to my knowledge. I also never said that stall was not a legitimate strategy just that if ladder was filled with stall than the meta would be stale because the diversity of Pokémons used in stall is very limited. Swag Key does not counter any pokemon. For a pokemon to counter another pokemon it means they can switch in and deal with the threat a high percentage of the time (i.e chancy is to chari-y or mega venasour is to azumaril). Kelfki relies on its prankster swagger to almost always out speed the opponent and hope that it the pokemon hit itself. If I am wrong please list some pokemon that swag key will always beat near one hundred percent of the time. Yes its prankster thunderwave can cripple most HO but with only that usually only one pokemon is taken down at max or a ground or electric pokemon can beat it.

It is not horrible to lead with a set up sweeper but they are definitely at a disadvantage as reborn follows no wifi that innately pressures people to lead with taunt /u-turn/focus sash leads all of which break set up leads.

I'm sorry..but there's needing of a single train of thought here... if it's not a good chance for one party, how is it good for another? That's literally the same chance on both sides, that shouldn't be considered different.

50/50 is not a good chance for either. It relies on luck and is thus not competitive which is why people want it gone. The thing is is that the person using it has the advantage because they think the 50/50 is actually worth it while the opponent has no say and just has to hope he or she will not hit themselves (i.e they turn a matches which was skill based with the opponent maybe having an upper hand to a match where the outcome becomes 50/50). In the end, unless they have atlest 2 bulky pokemon who have some way of healing themselves or a bulky magic bouncer, the match is going to be decided by a coin flip which i am guessing most people do not want.

[Chevaleresse]

Lemme make another point here: Playing against prankswag is probably the least fun thing in the game, currently. You basically hope that you break confusion and nuke that stupid key ring before you get Foul Played to death. Baton Pass is similar, though it's more of just watching your opponent play without being able to do anything affecting them.

[SJMistery]

swagger removes all strategy and turns the game a coinflip. i personally prefer roulette as a luck-based game.

BP, on the other hand, has the problem of being forced to lead with scolipede thanks to never having put wifi (which a LOT of pokemon hate having it enabled, such as zoroark or ditto, who rely on the surprise to be efective).i still call the ban, i haven't forgotten (and will never do) crep's Baton Pass team of BW

Edited June 12, 2014 by SJMistery

[Aqua Severwill]

swagger removes all strategy and turns the game a coinflip.

The amount of times that has been said here...gosh

It's not even a coin flip, first off in a literal sense, only with swagger on the first turn of being confused, after that you have the better chance. And then you get paralysed which makes the odds harder for you. I for one like probability and don't think it should be banned for that one reason.

Does it take out strategy? Yes, but not for the person who started it all and there is some sort of strategy in the mind games you have to play with others in it, like predicting if they're going to switch out and what not, because there are many ways around it, although it is still all based on chance for that way around it, such as a ground type that can OHKO it with the swag boost

As for BP, it's a nice thing really, your pokemon powering up to support each other. However it does become really bothersome and the only real way it can get "unbeatable" is if you set them completely set up and then pass it all onto Espeon. There are very few ways to actually deal with it because you do have to hope for a crit at times, which still can't be enough. And so either you hope to get a taunt in before that happens or have something with belly drum on stand by...inb4 burn and no one really likes belly drum.

So limiting BP to two or three pokemon would be best and if there are three then there shouldn't be Espeon, not sure if you can really do that but that's how I see it

[Shamitako]

OMG Aqua yes

Exactly

If we're taking it out because of luck, then I really have a problem with that

EDIT: Also, Swagger has a %10 miss chance. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but if you're missing approx 1/10, then you're likely to miss at least once at a key point in a battle. The odds are never actually 50/50 (I was actually gonna say this yesterday but it got too ranty XD) And the snap-out chance is actually fairly high. While yes it's still luck based, the odds are generally in the opponents favor, except when T-Wave is also in effect. And T-Wave has two entire types that block it (Plus Sand is the only weather I've seen still being run fairly often)

Edited June 13, 2014 by MasterWeavile898