Baton pass and Swagger? ~Voting Ends June 25th~

[Reignited'Light]

The same could be said of other things. We might as well ban confusion in it's entirety. Besides, I don't recall prankswag being an issue in 5th gen. It seems to me this is more of a Klefki issue, in which case just ban Klefki and we can go back to using Sableyes.

You just can't "remove" a mechanic from the metagame. Might as well remove Paralysis,Freeze,Sleep,Burns, and Secondary mechanics if you're saying something like that.

Because Sableye has better things to do than to be lucked out. And Sableye is frail to even use a set like that.

Klefki runs other sets. SwagPlay is not the only thing it can do you know.

Might as well just ban SwagPlayPrankster.

Edited June 1, 2014 by DestructiveSkitty

[Sapphire]

You clearly missed the sarcasm. That's exactly my point.

[slant]

Yes luck has always been part of the game but at the same time, we should be trying to get rid of its influence wherever we can - in a perfect world the more skillful player should win every single time but that's pretty unrealistic due to unlucky burns, crits, etc. By allowing swagplay, it takes player skill out of the equation and makes the outcome of the game solely luck based which is silly. This is a skill game, not a luck game.

Just to reemphasize nobody is saying that it is impossible to beat a swagplay team because it is definitely possible. But the issue is that the match's outcome depends on luck and not skill which is not healthy for the metagame.

[Bazaro]

I see people saying "counter Swagger," but I don't feel this does justice. Sure, you can lower your Attack IV's all the way, but Foul Play will still hurt you a lot at +2 Attack. There are only 3 Magic Bouncers, and sadly they hardly ever see use. And even if they stop their onslaught, there isn't much they can do back. The point of this game is win or lose while having fun, and people don't have fun when they can't even pull off an attack. Swag-Play isn't "easy" or "hard" to beat, considering there is no definite way to beat it, leaving it all to chances that are stacked highly against you.

Baton Pass, I don't see as much a problem. You could sit there, pointlessly pounding away at their Substitute, OR you could try setting up against them. +6 Talonflame can eaisly tear down their subs, leaving room for Brave Bird/Acrobatics sweep. Usually once you can KO one member of the Baton Pass team, the rest fall like dominoes with little effort.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Bazaro

[Ikaru]

I also agree that Swagger should not be banned. Yes it does lead to some "hax" but it can make the match go both ways as said before and in absolutely no way can a coin flip be equivalent to a guaranteed win. Infiltrator can definitely help get around substitutes and there are plenty of common pokemon that run infiltrator (chandy and noivern) that can SE (in some regard) against the common prankster/swaggerers (sableye and klefki).

I also do not think BP should be banned. I definitely like the idea of the setup lead as stated before and good stall teams also do a pretty good job of countering BP. Also as a weird counter... wouldn't a quagsire or a clefable with unaware do wonders against BP?

At the very least, a simple ban (ie banning of the move) would be absolutely terrible. I would somewhat understand doing a complex ban (ie no more than x BPers or no more than x BPers and you can't use this move... etc). I feel like it is unreasonable to state that one type of team is more superior to other types of teams.

1)

Seen here (thanks Roo), it becomes more than a simple coin flip after one turn and can very well be played with to make it last several turns without getting hit in return (and even if you do, the initial turn is, again, completely luck-based), i.e. Substitute and Thunder Wave. Assuming, because the chance gets higher and higher that eventually you will hit yourself at least once, you do lose a turn, their free sub is up and then you either get Thunder Wave'd (depending on the set used) further hampering your ability to fight back, or hammered with your own +2 attack using Foul Play. The only way this could be any more subjectively infuriating is if Klefki had anything more than Leftovers to heal itself with. It's mindless and if anyone decided they wanted to use it wouldn't be hard to. THAT is the argument behind banning it, as far as I can tell, and it's the reason I suggested banning more than just Swagger alone, as by itself it's not too overwhelming.

2) I think I went over most of that already so,

3) Basically what I said with the other post- we can probably limit it somehow without outright banning one thing entirely

Also, people keep going on about swagger being a coinflip, but luck has been a part of the game since day 1. Paralysis, sleep, freeze, etc. even crits.

Your point is noted, but none of those are nearly as likely to occur as Confusion is. Paralysis, while it doesn't wear off, is only a 25% chance each turn, and there are a considerable number of options to avoid it (Electric types are completely immune; most Ground types are as well; Limber is a thing in the same vein as Own Tempo if anyone wants to use that argument) as compared to Confusion having Own Tempo and... switching. Sleep moves sans Spore are generally inaccurate and if one thing is asleep nothing else can be put to sleep as well- unless you're not using Sleep clause, but that's neither here nor there. No move has any higher than a 10% chance to freeze something (excluding Secret Power for obvious reasons). Crits were nerfed this gen as it is, and, without a set dedicated to it, are only a 6.25% chance which is less likely than anything mentioned here. Even then, the only Pokemon that can reasonably dedicate itself to 100% crit is Kingdra and you're not going to sweep a team with 85 speed.

EDIT: and in the time I took to write this there's been like four new replies so if anything was already addressed don't mind me

EDIT2: after reading the replies I realise there would basically be no use for Swagger if we removed the combinations that make it into abuse cases, so with that said maybe we can just get rid of it altogether after all, idk

[Moony]

yeah, ikaru said my thoughts perfectly

gonna pull a post from smogon that I can think really explains the point well

[Reignited'Light]

You clearly missed the sarcasm. That's exactly my point.

So, what exactly are you trying to propose to this topic then?

[Shanco]

Before we get things started, I'm just going to say that I think Swagger and BP should get seperate threads for discussion.

I did have an old Baton Pass advice thread from a year and a half ago. Pretty dated, but most (if not all) of the things I have going in there still apply to 6th Gen. Feel free to give your two cents in this topic.

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3072

[Sapphire]

Ikaru-that table doesn't take into account Swaggers miss chance.

Next, 'Magic Bounces hardly ever see play'. I face an Espeon/Xatu about 1/3 of all matches.

[Reignited'Light]

Ikaru-that table doesn't take into account Swaggers miss chance.

Next, 'Magic Bounces hardly ever see play'. I face an Espeon/Xatu about 1/3 of all matches.

It's miss chance? It's 90% accuracy. It wouldn't matter that much.

Now they see use because to counter the recent Baton Pass and Swagger Spam everyone has been using. They'll go down when BP and SwagPlay gets banned.

[Shamitako]

After facing BP a few times... It's actually quite tough to kill. I can't take down Espeon with Mandibuzz's Knock Offs, and I can't Taunt anything until I've done that

If I can get a Taunt out, or somehow manage to get my Xzard to 4 DDs or so, then maybe I've got a shot (also sticky Web forces Scolipede out every few turns, it's it's not hard to kill with a special attacker) But even then, and maybe I just suck, I have a ton of trouble killing it. Espeon kills most of my main strategies, and Smeargle forces me to switch and sleep one of my weaker Pokes, thus removing any boosts Xzard had. It's really quite painful, though I enjoy the challenge of taking it down

I still argue that Swagger isn'- Actually, no, I give up on that argument. and there's a solution proposed that I find quite workable and I am seriously tired of people whining about Swagger

Nobody (I.E. Not a vocal majority) cared in Gen V. A lot of the arguments I've seen have been centered on Klefki. I run Klefki in Ubers and it performs okay, usually gets it's Spikes down and maybe KOs an opponent (Though a few times it's swept entire teams because Spikes damage + many Ubers have high attack)

So just make Klefki Uber. Problem solved

Also, I was running that PrankSwag team for a while there? I can't use it anymore because people keep 4-0ing it. Mostly people with Rotom-W or Xatu... But also Talonflame if Thudurus goes down beforehand and it gets lucky against Klefki (Though Whimsi has managed to kill one once or twice by getting insanely lucky with Stun Spore)

Basically, I can't run it anymore, because like the whole server has figured out how to counter it (Though if we were to ban Klefki, I could swap that for something capable of taking on the aforementioned problems c:< )

EDIT: And oh no, %90 is very important. I've lost matches by missing Swagger at a key point (And I don't mean needing them to hurt themselves, I mean needing to be able to T-Wave them with my next Poke instead of having to waste that one on Swagger and rely on luck to pull me through)

Edited June 2, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Reignited'Light]

After facing BP a few times... It's actually quite tough to kill. I can't take down Espeon with Mandibuzz's Knock Offs, and I can't Taunt anything until I've done that

If I can get a Taunt out, or somehow manage to get my Xzard to 4 DDs or so, then maybe I've got a shot (also sticky Web forces Scolipede out every few turns, it's it's not hard to kill with a special attacker) But even then, and maybe I just suck, I have a ton of trouble killing it. Espeon kills most of my main strategies, and Smeargle forces me to switch and sleep one of my weaker Pokes, thus removing any boosts Xzard had. It's really quite painful, though I enjoy the challenge of taking it down

I still argue that Swagger isn'- Actually, no, I give up on that argument. and there's a solution proposed that I find quite workable and I am seriously tired of people whining about Swagger

Nobody (I.E. Not a vocal majority) cared in Gen V. A lot of the arguments I've seen have been centered on Klefki. I run Klefki in Ubers and it performs okay, usually gets it's Spikes down and maybe KOs an opponent (Though a few times it's swept entire teams because Spikes damage + many Ubers have high attack)

So just make Klefki Uber. Problem solved

Also, I was running that PrankSwag team for a while there? I can't use it anymore because people keep 4-0ing it. Mostly people with Rotom-W or Xatu... But also Talonflame if Thudurus goes down beforehand and it gets lucky against Klefki (Though Whimsi has managed to kill one once or twice by getting insanely lucky with Stun Spore)

Basically, I can't run it anymore, because like the whole server has figured out how to counter it (Though if we were to ban Klefki, I could swap that for something capable of taking on the aforementioned problems c:< )

EDIT: And oh no, %90 is very important. I've lost matches by missing Swagger at a key point (And I don't mean needing them to hurt themselves, I mean needing to be able to T-Wave them with my next Poke instead of having to waste that one on Swagger and rely on luck to pull me through)

But Klefki would go down in a single hit in Ubers? With the right support, maybe it can work. But Ubers is not it's place to stay.

I never said 90% isin't unimportant. It might miss here and there, but nothing another win can't handle right?

[Shamitako]

Nah, it handles quite fine in Ubers. It does die in one hit from most sweepers, but as a lead it handles fine. You could run Screens to buff your defenses, or Spikes like I do and support your sweepers. You could run Sub if you're crazy to try to get an extra barrier while, Groudon lays rocks? IDK, Sub seems pointless for that O_o But despite it's frailty, it does make for exceedingly handy utility

[Chevaleresse]

I would rather not ban Klefki. It has uses outside of swagplay, such as dual screens, spikes, and having an excellent defensive typing.

[Shamitako]

I'd far prefer that to dropping Swagger

Also, Swagger isn't as easy as people make it sound. It's quite hard [Read: nigh impossibubble] to perform against a stall team well. It murders hyper offense, but that's about it. I wouldn't be running it if it was easy, that'd be no fun for me. There's a reason I mostly hate hyper offense outside Ubers (where I have yet to find a way to properly perform any other strategies >_<)

Also, Seccy, the reason you see Xatu so much is probs because of my PrankSwag team. I notice a large change in the general team build on Reborn towards more stall-oriented stuff after a week or two of using that

EDIT: Isn't there a way to ban Pokemon from having certain moves tho? So maybe just ban Klefki from having Swagger?

Edited June 2, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Kamina]

c: glad it has been civil!

anyways i think that HO, which is a very common and diverse playstyle, has absolutely no way to beat klefki without luming every single one of their pokemon or they will still possibly lose atlest 1 pokemon depending on a coin flip. stall meta = stale meta

i think a prankster + swagger ban is all that is needed as prankster makes the pokemon always attack first. but if that is too complicated i dont think a out right swagger ban is a big deal.

it has already been addressed well by skitty/moony/slant/lobos/cow/ikaru

BP

@bazaro

Yea a sd talonflame could beat bp but why would you lead with a set up talonflame? the only lead talonflames i have seen are banded ones since they can usually u-turn out. most set up sweepers are ment to be for late game sweeps when all their counters/checks are destroyed. Same with any other set up lead but i think that had already been addressed. If we played in preview i could see a case for that but they would probably not lead witha scelopede if they saw you having a talonflame.

possible solution: yea get only 3 pokemon with bp allowed in a team or less

or not allow espeon/xatu/scelopede/blazakin access to BP

[Cowtao]

I'm down with those options. I think everyone had their fair share of input on this topic and we all have a general idea of the advents of Baton Pass and Swagger. Personally I think this is ready to be determined. All in favor?

Also just to bring up, if we are to go through these changes by the way Kamina says it might happen, will this effect older tactics such as QuiverPass/SmashPass in popularity or as a tactic all together?

[Chevaleresse]

I'd like one final say on both.

When you consider a ban on something, there are two main factors to consider:

1. Does it over centralize the metagame in any way?

2. Is it reliant on a factor other than player skill?

The answer for both Swagger+Prankster and Baton Pass is yes for either question. For the first, Swagger has only niche counters that would not see use outside of countering it; namely, Own Tempo and to a lesser extent Magic Bounce and Lum Berry. When team building, a player is forced to use one of these or a stall team to counter Swagger or be at the mercy of the RNG. For Baton Pass as it exists currently, it's the same story. Setup leads are almost always a bad idea, and have only been seriously considered as a BP counter. Haze is literally never suggested on this forum outside of countering BP, but without it, your team is helpless. The same goes for Unaware Quagsire and Clefable.

For the second factor, it is clear. Swagger is just as luck reliant as evasion or Moody, with every part of the strategy relying on a random event. Baton Pass means the battle is over before it begins due to teambuilding, and Baton Pass teams are easy to copy and paste.

Neither requires any skill. Swagger users don't need to predict switch-ins or moves; they just follow a set formula that literally does not change at all based on lineup. Baton Pass takes marginally more skill, but in the end similarly follows a set pattern that mostly disregards matchups and requires no prediction of any sort, since a BP user can always have the advantage on a switch unless hit with a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch.

[Shamitako]

I'm all for limiting or banning BP

I still think that Klefki is pretty clearly the main problem, not Swagger

And Swagger isn't as easy as you make it sound, Sarc. It does require quite a bit of prediction. You can't rely on a 50/50 chance, and you have to watch for switches to Electric and Ground types smashing your momentum. Shore you can always Swagger and Sub while waiting for them to not hit you, but you usually can't go more than 1 for 1.5, assuming they don't have a counter like Rotom-W, Tyranitar, or Espeon/Xatu lying around

Edited June 2, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Kamina]

I'm all for limiting or banning BP

I still think that Klefki is pretty clearly the main problem, not Swagger

And Swagger isn't as easy as you make it sound, Sarc. It does require quite a bit of prediction. You can't rely on a 50/50 chance, and you have to watch for switches to Electric and Ground types smashing your momentum. Shore you can always Swagger and Sub while waiting for them to not hit you, but you usually can't go more than 1 for 1.5, assuming they don't have a counter like Rotom-W, Tyranitar, or Espeon/Xatu lying around

hmm klefki is only a problem because it can swagger and, with prankster, usually the first one to attack. It's other sets do not rely on the rng and are not as centralizing to the metagame.

I think what Sarc is saying is that you just spam the same moves to win and that does not require a lot of skill to win. 50/50 chance is not a good chance but if it really was that bad than no one would ever use it and yet it is pretty popular. If opponent switch to electric or ground pokemon you can still spam swagger and rely on the rng while the opponent also has to hope that he won't have to hit himself. Defensive rotoms and t-tars counter it but an offensive t-tar found in HO take a lot of damage from hitting self and even from a resisted foul play same with non defensive espeon.

[Shamitako]

Ttar is usually fine even with max Attack IVs. And with its defenses, it can usually tank even its own hits for the first two Swaggers

Talonflame is also incredibly handy for taking out Klefki and Sableye especially. The former can't take Flare Blitzes, the latter can't inflict permanent status. Though my Whimsicott can usually take it if it's been paralyzed beforehand

Bisharp is also quite nasty if the opponent can use it well, though Klefki needn't fear it

Banded Scizors are evil with U-Turn. Noivern can take out one of my Pranksters, but usually get Paralyzed and is useless for the remainder of the battle

As before, anything stall oriented

Chansey takes anything below 400HP since subs and nonexistant attack

Volcarona is okay at stopping Klefki and Sableye, but Thundurus kinda murders it and it can only take one out. It's also the only thing I've ever seen a Lum berry on outside Ubers

As mentioned previously, Rotom-W is death

Mandibuzz wrecks things with Taunt and Knock Off. I can confuse it, but it tanks its own hits quite well. And as long as it gets a hit off withing the first three turns, it can usually down subs and either force a switch to Banette, or remove leftovers on whatever is out. I've been forced on multiple occasions to down Banette just to remove a pesky Mandibuzz

Porygon2 isn't around too much, but it has good defenses and oft carries Mirror Coat, allowing one with good skills to outplay my Pranksters

Scarf Ditto is annoying as ever. It can out Swagger my Pranksters and retreat immediately for something else (like Rotom-W >_>) To take advantage of my confusion/loss of momentum do to switching

Mega Mawile is annoying, esp. with TR support. Since then it outspeeds my Foul Plays. But its massive attack means in won't last many of its own hits. Azumarill is largely the same, but swapping TR for Aqua Jet

Jolteon and mega Manetric are both okay, but they have weak defenses, so Foul Play usually shreds them

Dusclops can't really heal, but as long as Sableye doesn't tag it with Will-O-Wisp, it can usually PP stall a lot of my Swaggers away

Speaking of PP stall, RestTalk Suicune shreds my Pranksters. They can do like nothing to it, and it can even remove the status I inflict on it with T-Wave/Will-O-Wisp, all the while forcing them to sacrifice precious Swaggers and Subs to keep it from KOing/Burning them with Scald. That's another one I have to leave to Banette

Contrary Serperior is the worst, thankfully T-Wave can usually keep it from being too much of a thing since it annihilates its Speed

And of course, Magic Bounce:

As always, Espeon can be annoying. Esp. if it swaps in when I'm Swaggering and not behind a Sub. It forces a switch, or me risking harming myself, while it can set up with Calm Minds or drop some screens. Though Foul Play does still do quite a bit of damage to its meager defense stat

Xatu has been used specifically to counter PrankSwag, so enough said. It even kills my Espeon (who I run to mess with people expecting all Pranksters

Absol sucks against Foul Play. Dies in one hit after a Swords Dance, and probs two without. Further, it can't do shit to Klefki without said Swords Dance. There's a reason I'm the only person that uses it >_<

So there's my nich counters. I think Own Tempo is also a thing? Avalugg usually has Sturdy tho. And Smeargle, while it has surprised me once or twice when I forgot about it (Own Tempo is that little of a thing), simply cannot take a couple Foul Plays, and if it's got Spore I can always just swap to Espeon and put it to sleep, thus removing it

[Duster]

In my opinion swagger should definitely be banned. If your opponent sends out Klefki or Sableye (especially Klefki) then your battle essentially turns into a coin flip simulator. Strategies relaying on luck defeat the purpose of competitive battling as the game is no longer competitive. I emphasized relaying because there are certain times when luck is a factor in competitive battling of course, but it becomes a whole different beast when you have a Pokemon that can abuse luck to an extreme.

Basically any physical attacker and frail special ones are swagger bait and the game essential becomes 50/50 to whether Klefki dies or the other Pokemon.

And forgive me because I am still not too familiar with the Gen 6 metagame, but how is Baton Pass broken? What happened this generation compared to others that could make it over centralize the metagame?

[Cowtao]

Speed Boost Scolipede w/Iron Defense and Swords Dance happened. Nuff' said.

[Sapphire]

@ Duster The exact same reasons why it was banned in Gen 3. It turns the game into a 100% match. If you have certain move, congratulations, you've won. If not, too bad, you've lost. I still remember the horror of the Ninjask Spam from that period.

[Epic C]

Not allowing Sableye, Klefki and Thundurus use Swagger OU would be wonderful. IMO.

Also I'm ok with the limiting BP as long as i can still do BP Scoli + Arbok on my Poison monotype team C:

just make it so its not allowed to have more than 1 BP user in a team. that way, they'll no more BP-Chains and no more people having to spam special sets to counter BP-Chaining.