Suggestions for improving gameplay

[dondon151]

Wild Pokemon are below the levels of those the trainers have in every single Pokemon game. You are inevitably going to be grinding to get things caught up, and that's just assuming you're like me and like having your team evenly-leveled to a slim margin. Most people are not.

I full well understand this, and in fact I was not advocating this (as I will repeat for the third time). I'll use my Sigilyph example again: I obtained it at 11 levels lower than my team average, and my understanding is that my team was slightly underleveled to begin with. An example recommendation would be to have it appear 5 levels higher, which would still put it 6 levels below my team average, but at least capable of fighting a decent chunk of trainer battles on its own with help from Hyper Potions.

Another example would be the wild Pokemon in the Jasper Ward: they appear at an average of L20 when the team average should be around L25. At lower levels, level differences matter more (because damage calculation is multiplicative and not additive), so they would be much more usable, but not completely so, if their average level was around L22.

The point of the game is not to have something you can use effortlessly handed to you on a silver platter- you're supposed to put forward the work to train up a new team member. Otherwise, well, things would be hell of a lot more boring, if you ask me. That point is especially pushed home in Reborn, where the game has been tailored to more experienced players and is thus designed to challenge them.

Well, I am a "more experienced" player, and rather than challenge me, it's just encouraged me to not use them. I suspect this is not the intended effect.

As you've said you prefer speed-running however and generally just stick to one Pokemon? I think it's fairly obvious that you're not used to using a full team, namely the grinding that naturally comes with that, and that is the main problem here.

If I preferred to stick to 1 Pokemon, I would not have bothered with a 5-Pokemon team. I think one of the primary virtues of the Pokemon series is its variety, and it would be shame to not experience that, but I don't want to bend over backwards in doing so.

I also linked the Pokemon White 0 EXP speedrun that I completed awhile ago, which uses more Pokemon than any player would on any normal playthrough. So I am not averse to using more than 1 Pokemon on a team.

...My apologies if I sound snippy, I was not trying to come across as rude.

That's no problem at all. It's hard to disagree with someone and not occasionally come across as rude.

Dondon isn't saying he doesn't want to grind, just not so such huge level gaps. He is also saying that he doesn't mind the lower leveled pokes, but make sure they a not so low that they would steal too much game time away from him and his other gaming endeavors. Honestly, he might want a separate version of reborn for speedrunners.

Haha, Reborn for speedrunners would just have:

- Speed Boost Blaziken

- Something with Teleport

- An easy way to beat Aya and Radomus

And even slightly higher leveled wild Pokemon wouldn't matter because the speedrunner would just use Repels all the time.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[Gaunt]

Dude i don't even know where to begin...ahhh let's see (text wall incoming) first thing first this game is not made for speedrunners so if you want event/wild Pokemon that are tailored for you (as in to be on the same/near to the level of your Pokemon) you're not gonna get them because despite all you said that makes the game easier (it just does) if you want to speedrun Reborn you can do it but don't expect it to be easy/fast, this is not a "normal" Pokemon game where you can finish the entire storyline with just your starter (and 1-2 HM slaves). Now i'll try to answer your (initial) questions (because after that you continue to repeat the same things over and over and...exc):

1) The "night being too dark TM" thing was addressed by many people MANY times and believe it or not it was even darker before, now you can have (minor) difficulties only when there's a thunderstorm at night (and only at the start of the game when you're still not familiar with the city) now after playing 150 hours i can (almost) navigate Reborn with my eyes closed (thunderstorm or not). So this is a problem only for speedrunners.

2) The "too much walking TM" has been addressed too (now i'm going ahead of myself but the majority of your "problems" has been already addressed), this was done to encourage exploration (for secrets and TM's) and because most of the event Pokemon (the relatively good ones at least) appear with certain specific (action or weather) conditions and if you pass an area only one time you'll probably miss them (without a guide of course). Teleport is bugged and led to many problems in the past (some people even considered removing it completely from the game) that's why we don't get it early anymore (i used it only once to get Beldum). Ame said many times that "Fly" will be the last HM we'll get, for the same reasons as Teleport i think (and maybe because it's difficult to implement but idk about that). so again this is a problem only for speedrunners. Ah yes if you don't like the music of the game (or if you find it repetitive) simply don't listen to it (as was said before) problem solved.

3) For the Super Repels thing i really don't care (i use them only when visiting a cave for the 3-4 time after getting all the Pokemon in there), as the original Pokemon games you get them mid game (how it should be) so no issue here. Possible problem for speedrunners maybe?

4) The level curve is...well...normal like in all the other Pokemon games and this is actually the first time i heard someone complain about it so my answer is: there's nothing wrong with it and if you actually have a problem with the level cap then (as someone here already said) that was made to increase the difficulty of the game and can be a problem (again) only for speedrunners. I got to Samson with a team of 6 Pokemon (and 2 reserves) all lv60 without grinding so i don't see where the problem is.

To conclude/reassume your only problem is that you're a speedrunner and you want the game to be easier/faster because reasons and i really don't think that will happen but i'm not the author so idk, this was just my (very mean and offensive) opinion on the matter.

P.S.

Blaziken is really OP and looking at your team it seems to be the only thing that kept you "alive" and progressing so why don't you try with another starter and see how it goes?

[dondon151]

Dude i don't even know where to begin...ahhh let's see (text wall incoming) first thing first this game is not made for speedrunners so if you want event/wild Pokemon that are tailored for you (as in to be on the same/near to the level of your Pokemon) you're not gonna get them because despite all you said that makes the game easier (it just does) if you want to speedrun Reborn you can do it but don't expect it to be easy/fast, this is not a "normal" Pokemon game where you can finish the entire storyline with just your starter (and 1-2 HM slaves).

I hate having to repeat my points over and over again, but it seems like some people either don't read them or understand them.

A speedrunner largely doesn't care about event Pokemon. If I wanted to speedrun Pokemon Reborn, 99% of event Pokemon would be useless because they would be too time-consuming to even obtain. I think Magus is the one person here who has attempted to route Reborn for speedrunning, and he will probably agree with me that 99% of event Pokemon are useless for speedrunning (especially now that Gyarados was removed).

So before you continue further, let me iterate once more: I do not have a secret agenda to make speedrunning easier and even if I did, I wouldn't care about event Pokemon levels.

1) The "night being too dark TM" thing was addressed by many people MANY times and believe it or not it was even darker before, now you can have (minor) difficulties only when there's a thunderstorm at night (and only at the start of the game when you're still not familiar with the city) now after playing 150 hours i can (almost) navigate Reborn with my eyes closed (thunderstorm or not). So this is a problem only for speedrunners.

Did you see the post in which I compared a Reborn night time screen with an HGSS night time screen? In the Reborn screen, I can't see the tree trunk or the cracks in the ground from the distance at which I sit from my screen.

A common rejoinder to this is "get eye glasses" or "turn up the brightness." Aside from the fact that this is a poor defense in its nature (see the iPad app developer analogy), I am wearing eye glasses and my screen brightness is at maximum.

Finally, you said that you have no problem navigating Reborn after 150 hours of play time. What about someone who's just starting out the game? Why is the game not tailored to be accessible to someone who has not played Reborn for 150 hours?

2) The "too much walking TM" has been addressed too (now i'm going ahead of myself but the majority of your "problems" has been already addressed), this was done to encourage exploration (for secrets and TM's) and because most of the event Pokemon (the relatively good ones at least) appear with certain specific (action or weather) conditions and if you pass an area only one time you'll probably miss them (without a guide of course). Teleport is bugged and led to many problems in the past (some people even considered removing it completely from the game) that's why we don't get it early anymore (i used it only once to get Beldum). Ame said many times that "Fly" will be the last HM we'll get, for the same reasons as Teleport i think (and maybe because it's difficult to implement but idk about that). so again this is a problem only for speedrunners.

That I'm still bringing up the problems means that they haven't been properly "addressed."

If Teleport is glitched, I'll remind you that it's still accessible in the game. Some guy could get an Abra from the 7th street vendor and still use the glitched Teleport. It's clearly not a big enough problem if it can still be encountered - the problem itself could easily be patched up by Ame temporarily disabling Teleport's field effect until she can get it working properly, or by forcing the player to always teleport to the Grand Hall Top.

(Side note: what happens if a player uses Teleport and warps back to a non-Agate Circus location after the event with Cain at the gate leading up to Agate Circus has been triggered? Can he not continue on in the game?)

This whole "problem for speedrunners" phrase is an epithet that is really convenient for dismissing legitimate concerns. I brought up the Teleport issue because running from place to place is excruciatingly boring.

Ah yes if you don't like the music of the game (or if you find it repetitive) simply don't listen to it (as was said before) problem solved.

GlitchxCity's music is great, but I know I'm not the only one who gets tired of listening to it after about 9 hours of game play, a huge portion of which is spent on the Bicycle listening to the Relic Castle remix.

Someone didn't read a previous post. I don't even have an issue with the music; I don't know why people continue to bring it up.

3) For the Super Repels thing i really don't care (i use them only when visiting a cave for the 3-4 time after getting all the Pokemon in there), as the original Pokemon games you get them mid game (how it should be) so no issue here. Possible problem for speedrunners maybe?

It's not even a "problem for speedrunners;" it's just a minor annoyance that can be very easily be fixed. Like, there is no reason not to make Super Repels available earlier. Ever since the new Repel system was introduced in B/W, I don't know why Game Freak is still using 3 different kinds of Repels when they're all functionally identical and the cost efficiency difference is trivial.

4) The level curve is...well...normal like in all the other Pokemon games and this is actually the first time i heard someone complain about it so my answer is: there's nothing wrong with it and if you actually have a problem with the level cap then (as someone here already said) that was made to increase the difficulty of the game and can be a problem (again) only for speedrunners. I got to Samson with a team of 6 Pokemon (and 2 reserves) all lv60 without grinding so i don't see where the problem is.

1. I never ever once mentioned that I had a problem with the level cap system. I actually really like the level cap system. I think Pokemon should do more to encourage players to partake in the variety that it has to offer. The level cap system is necessary but not sufficient, though, because the effort of expanding my team is simply too tedious.

2. I already stated that the level curve in the main series is problematic. Furthermore, I provided mathematical reasoning to demonstrate why this is true:

- The formula for determining a Pokemon's level is cubic.

- The amount of EXP required for a Pokemon to reach its next level is quadratic.

- The formula for determining EXP gain is linear.

You don't need to know calculus or limits to figure out that Pokemon growth naturally slows down over time because of these three facts.

To conclude/reassume your only problem is that you're a speedrunner and you want the game to be easier/faster because reasons and i really don't think that will happen but i'm not the author so idk, this was just my (very mean and offensive) opinion on the matter.

1. I have said, many times by this point, that I have no desire to make the game easier.

2. I'm only lobbying for conveniences that the player should have in the first place.

On the Teleport issue (glitch problem aside), here's an analogy: suppose Ame didn't code the Running Shoes or Bicycle into the game. Would you be okay with this? If a user named ponpon151 made a thread in the forum complaining that getting from one place to another is too inconvenient because there are no Running Shoes or Bicycle, is your rejoinder going to be, "this is a speedrunner's problem; also, it's no big deal, just listen to some other music?"

If your response to this analogy is, "but the Bicycle and Teleport are two different things," then you must explain why. Both of them (again, glitch aside) serve the purpose of speeding up transportation from one place to another.

Blaziken is really OP and looking at your team it seems to be the only thing that kept you "alive" and progressing so why don't you try with another starter and see how it goes?

Because it would be really boring? Barbaracle was pretty damn good, too.

By the way, like Lost Lore before me, I must apologize if I sound too belligerent. It's difficult to sound convincing and polite at the same time.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[Cuddlesworth]

Wow, so much tension in this topic. Although, I agree with some of the points dondon151 has said.

-The grinding shouldn't be too tedious. Either the game give us low level pokeys and give us a varied / good way to grind or just give us -reasonably- lower-levelled pokeys. It has been stated several times, grinding really doesn't add any challenge, there's a limit to the levels anyway, and the only thing that you really need to invest is time and effort. ... Also with regards to the variety of pokemon to grind against: the unown in the citae are good for exp but the encounter rates are sooo low it almost seems like grinding against Crustle and Tauros is more effective. Another thing, Tauros/Bouff and Crustle are too specific/limiting, for ex. I wanna train my Ninetales against T/B or C but Ninetales just cant take a phys hit let alone a rock move, Grass types also have trouble against these Pokeys because of SapSipper/Megahorn and Crustle's bug moves.

-The walking around also gets me. It would have been ok if the place wasn't so laggy, but we can't avoid that. It just really disuades me from 'exploring' Reborn properly. I really wanna catch a Tropius in Rhodocrine but I dont wanna pass thru lag-hell Peridot.

[dondon151]

Also with regards to the variety of pokemon to grind against: the unown in the citae are good for exp but the encounter rates are sooo low it almost seems like grinding against Crustle and Tauros is more effective.

You brought up some good details that I didn't mention, and I want to expand on this a little bit in a different direction. Some areas have very low encounter rates. I don't know why this is the case. It can't be for the sake of the player not getting into too many wild battles, because Repels are available for precisely that reason.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[Gaunt]

Did you see the post in which I compared a Reborn night time screen with an HGSS night time screen? In the Reborn screen, I can't see the tree trunk or the cracks in the ground from the distance at which I sit from my screen.

Let's be real, at night you normally shouldn't be able to see anything (if you don't have a light source) if you don't like it i suggest to play during the day

Finally, you said that you have no problem navigating Reborn after 150 hours of play time. What about someone who's just starting out the game? Why is the game not tailored to be accessible to someone who has not played Reborn for 150 hours?

Because it's still in development? Also there's an easy solution to this: play the game more

Someone didn't read a previous post. I don't even have an issue with the music; I don't know why people continue to bring it up.

Because you said it yourself in a previous post

I never ever once mentioned that I had a problem with the level cap system.

Yes you did, you want to modify/change it that automatically means you're not all right with it

I have said, many times by this point, that I have no desire to make the game easier.

Changing the level cap (from 25 to 28) like you said makes the game easier (your Pokemon become stronger and learn better moves) as for the grinding and walking around that also adds to the difficulty of the game (despite what you said) because you have to spend time and effort to have better Pokemon with better moves.

[dondon151]

Let's be real, at night you normally shouldn't be able to see anything (if you don't have a light source) if you don't like it i suggest to play during the day

Really? So if Ame were to make the night palette pitch black, you would have no problem with it because you're not supposed to be able to see anything?

Games have to strike a balance between functionality and realism. GSC and HGSS had great night palettes because they conveyed the notion that it was night time while still maintaining visibility.

Because it's still in development? Also there's an easy solution to this: play the game more

That's not a solution. Playing the game more has nothing to do with fixing the night time visibility problem.

Because you said it yourself in a previous post

Not liking the music? I absolutely did not say that. The repetitive aspect I did mention purely as a consequence of playing the game for 9 hours; the music obviously is not repetitive per se.

Yes you did, you want to modify/change it that automatically means you're not all right with it

No, that's not what it means. Try not to put words in my mouth, okay? Please?

Changing the level cap (from 25 to 28) like you said makes the game easier (your Pokemon become stronger and learn better moves) as for the grinding and walking around that also adds to the difficulty of the game (despite what you said) because you have to spend time and effort to have better Pokemon with better moves.

It does not add to the difficulty of the game. It adds to the tedium. Changing the level cap to L28 (this was only an example, it could have been L27 or L30) doesn't make the game easier if the opponent Pokemon scale up with it, not just in terms of their level, but also in terms of their movesets, or held items, etc.

I will address your claim that grinding and walking around adds to game difficulty. I did not find Reborn to be terribly difficult because I could usually count on Blaziken or Barbaracle to get my way out of tough battles. It's pretty clear that grinding is entirely optional, since a compact team of decent Pokemon with boosting moves can mostly get the job done. So how could it be that grinding adds to game difficulty if the player isn't required to do it very much, provided he severely restrict his Pokemon options?

Here's time for another analogy to demonstrate how walking around does not add to game difficulty. Say that I designed a game and I want you to test it out. The objective of the game is to follow a series of instructions. The instructions tell you to move from location A to location B, then to location C, and so on.

Is this game difficult? It clearly isn't, and you tell me that you found the game to be too easy (also a bit too boring, but I ignored that complaint, because you're just a speedrunner). One week later, I contact you again with good news: I've improved the game difficulty. Excited, you sit down and test the game, expecting something different.

Now suppose that I had made 2 changes to the game: I slowed down the player's movement speed, and I doubled the length of the paths between each location. Have I made the game more difficult, or is it just 4 times as tedious?

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[Wolfox]

I'm player 3, I don't mind grinding but I dislike it, also, if you do SWITCH TRAINING you can get the freacking Vulpix ready for use before you're at Aster and Eclipse at Azurin(Foongus) Island. As for the level caps, these are like that so you can remember it at all times and not think"the cap is lvl 28" and it turns out to be 26. and the grinding is something you'll need at Aya, Ice type leader(forgot her name), Radomus and Luna, and if you do you're grinding work good, you can(ep 11 stuff, please ignore this) use the Gyarados WITH Dragon Rage before the first PULSE. For speed runners this may not be at their likings, but that's this game.

[dondon151]

I'm player 3, I don't mind grinding but I dislike it, also, if you do SWITCH TRAINING you can get the freacking Vulpix ready for use before you're at Aster and Eclipse at Azurin(Foongus) Island.

Switch training is tedious. Switch training is almost exactly like grinding; I can interchange the two in a sentence and they would convey mostly the same meaning.

I can either switch train Vulpix or not use it, and it's far more convenient to not use it.

I can either grind Vulpix or not use it, and it's far more convenient to not use it.

In practice, they are about the same, too; the player is trying to bring a very underleveled Pokemon up to par.

Now, according to Magus, switch training Magikarp was the optimal speedrunning strategy prior to it being removed. Some speedrunning strategies require more grinding than others; those tend to be among the most boring and the least fun. (The Final Fantasy Tactics Advance speedrun strategy involves grinding the main character to L50 in an earlygame mission; that's one hell of a tedious speedrun.)

As for the level caps, these are like that so you can remember it at all times and not think"the cap is lvl 28" and it turns out to be 26.

Dobby, perhaps unintentionally, countered this statement previously:

Next, you say you cannot remember the badge limit, that is the extent of your evidence. I'm sure that until we hit samson, who did not raise the level cap, we all knew what the level cap was. It's a simple matter of paying attention to dialogue.

And, for the record, I had difficulty remembering badge limit levels as is, and I have read posts here by other users who also have mixed them up before, since they are all divisible by 5. (This is one instance where making the levels more unique might actually make them easier to remember!)

The on-site FAQ is also a very good resource.

and the grinding is something you'll need at Aya, Ice type leader(forgot her name), Radomus and Luna,

I'm almost certain that I did not have to grind for Aya and Radomus, despite both of them being unfavorable matchups for the Pokemon that I have been accused of using as a crutch.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[Amethyst]

Oh my goodness gengar gracious

All right, so after reading dondon vs the world of a topic I want to first say that I think you make some very well-reasoned points. I think the community is naturally getting defensive as anyone might when a game they like comes under critique, so I thank you for your patience in the discussion.

This discussion began with a lot of points and split out into a lot more, so I'm going to start with the first post and then just respond to a few things after that. Gotta try it keep it all Simple and Clean.

Improve contrast in night time palettes

A change I've wanted to make since the day/night system was implemented. Unfortunately when it decides screen tint it considers everything from hemisphere, to date and timezone, meaning making these changes is not as simple as it should be. In short, I don't presently know how to do it.

Side note, thunderstorm intensity has been taken down in an E13 weather rework brought to you by your neighborhood sightless sentinel, so that part might be a little better.

There's way too much walking around

1. Introduce Natu earlier in the game.

2. Introduce Baltoy in the mid-game.

3. Introduce HM02 somewhere within the existing game.

First- I try to limit walking distances being too far at any given time with the assorted shortcuts that open up, but that can only go so far. Even just coral-ward to beryl ward can take a few minutes, especially with "lag-hell Peridot." Incidentally, the city has been broken up by now, so the lag is largely removed.

There are some parts in the story that don't do very well with this; For instance I've been considering removing the part where the player walks to Jasper to get Cut. I originally had that to 'show' player Jasper and not just have extra dialogue, but it isn't worth running through the slums once and peridot/opal twice.

The removal of Abra and Ralts had nothing to do with teleport. I'm not going to remove a field move just because I occasionally make careless glitches because of it. That's my fault and can be fixed. Mostly.

After Aya, there is a teleport option available in ralts. Baltoy is a challenging potential before then, but as weak as Natu is I don't want it in too early because of Magic Bounce. Baltoy could maybe be around the Shelly gym part of the game without causing too many issues, but that's only a few episodes of difference.

The fly thing: To correct what was said in a reply, Fly will not be the last HM obtained (I might have said that previously; Rock Climb was added since). Fly can't be obtainable earlier for some story/technical reasons that will make sense when the time comes.

Introduce Super Repels earlier

Fair. I don't want repels to be entirely absent but I'll take a look at the placement.

The level curve is a bit too Pokemon-esque

I probably had to use somewhere in the range of 16 Common Candies on my starter before getting the third badge, but by the time I was challenging Samson, my average team level (L55) was about 10 levels lower than his. Part of this was because I was trying to use a much bigger team, but I feel like using a bigger team was a huge mistake. Some may not think this is an issue, but I have suggestions nonetheless:

A few comments:

-- The level curve of the early-game is balanced for a team of 6. If you're using fewer than that, then common candies are expected; I don't think that's avoidable.

-- Being ~10 levels below Samson is normal and expected; Unfortunately I had to jack his level way up to make him challenging, but I'm hoping EV control and AI improvements in 13 will help him, since despite that he's one of the easiest leaders yet.

1. Increase the number of mandatory trainer battles later in the game.

I find grinding to be a massive waste of time, so it's fine and all if you make me fight trainer battles, but if you give me the option to skip them, I'll probably take that instead. And I'd imagine so would a lot of other players.

Isn't that good to let the player decide if they want to fight those or not? It can be frustrating for players who don't want to, and then if they do later want to train up some levels, the trainers will be there. A solution I would sooner take, as such, would be to increase the number of optional trainers.

However part of the reason there are fewer trainers at this point is because I'm trying not to run into the level 100 hard cap. In fact, for this reason I've been considering reducing the number of trainers in the early game, especially the pre-first two gyms, to match, rather than the opposite. I'll learn as we get further into the game what my risk of hitting the 100 cap is.

2. The badge level limits don't have to be divisible by 5. (Neither do event Pokemon levels.)

I thought the L20 -> L25 improvement for the first badge in particular was way too low. Ame could do something like L20 -> L28 instead and scale up wild Pokemon

So I agree about the event pokemon, although I do usually try to keep to that to not seem strange, it isn't always worth doing so.

I do not currently agree that the level limits should not always be 5, because that becomes rather unclear to trainers and will be harder to remember than it already apparently is. The feedback by whomever, it might have been you, that the faq is just checked every time anyway, is valuable. I know now that I need to find somewhere in-game to display the level limit for each badge-- I'm thinking the Trainer Card will be easiest. Once the level limits are readable in-game I could consider non-5 limits.

However even in that case it probably will not have the effect you are hoping for. I'm more likely to scale down early trainers and gyms, than up. Most players fight Julia around level 15 but I didn't want to hard-cap them at that in-case they are playing at a type disadvantage *cough water starters* and need extra levels as a crutch. (Incidentally, since there's now a ton of lightningrod pokemon before Julia, that may be unnecessary too). You are correct it would make managing the level limits from later gym leaders more sensible.

3. Some of the obtainable Pokemon are underleveled.

I'm not sure what the intention is in making, for example, Growlithe available ~8 levels lower than the rest of the player's team.

Rather than challenge me, it's just encouraged me to not use them. I suspect this is not the intended effect.

Actually, that kind of was the purpose. With Pokemon like that that are relatively strong for their part of the game I lower the level to discourage everyone picking them up out of convenience. My hope is that the levels are in a range that people who want to use that Pokemon because they like it won't mind putting a little extra time into it, and that people who would just be using it because it's 'good' will think twice before committing to it.

With something like Joltik I would not normally keep the level below but I feel like it doesn't make sense to have a level ~40+ Joltik that has just decided to not evolve for whatever reason.

Wild levels are much the same. For new species, I don't necessarily want people to just level it once and it automatically evolves, so I keep some species low for that reason. By now we're at a high enough level that that doesn't matter for anything not from Kalos, but I seem to have made a habit of making newly-introduced species lower-leveled for the first area they appear in. My reasoning is as above; if people like it they'll catch it anyway. Otherwise, should it really be on-par with the team they've been training all game?

4. A more easily obtainable Exp. Share would be nice!

The Exp. Share is mostly a freebie in the main series games, anyway.

Should it be? I always thought of it as one of the most valuable potential side-quest rewards, so I saved it for a rather involved quest. So what is actually the benefit of the EXP share? It saves some time, and it saves your stronger Pokemon one turn of damage from the turn they switch in. I don't mind time-saving. But I think by the time we get the EXP share, party pokemon are strong enough that a player doesn't have to worry too much about those extra hits, which would have been considerable in the earlier parts of the game. As such, I don't want the EXP share being in too early.

Grinding is an integral part of the game, reflecting the growth and effort you would have to put in to raise your pokemon and grow as a whole.

I'll be the first to agree that tedium is best removed. I don't think grinding should be part of the game's challenge. Honestly the only thing that challenges is a player's patience, which I'm not looking to do. the pace of pokemon's battle system does that plenty enough already

I can see how this intention conflicts with some of my comments about pokemon levels and the exp share. I think I need to prioritise some values here.

And if one still wants that Natu early-game, Dban1 has created a Trading Service, where Pokemon are very easy to find.

Although I don't mind people running services like these, I'm not sure I agree with prescribing them as a solution to a potential gameplay flaw.

Honestly, he might want a separate version of reborn for speedrunners.

I um.

I think a speed-running version would entirely defeat the point of speed-running.

(Side note: what happens if a player uses Teleport and warps back to a non-Agate Circus location after the event with Cain at the gate leading up to Agate Circus has been triggered? Can he not continue on in the game?)

I attempted to make it so that teleporting from the circus takes you back to the circus entrance, but I don't believe I was successful.

[Gaunt]

That's not a solution. Playing the game more has nothing to do with fixing the night time visibility problem.

It is (like i said before) it works for me so i don't understand why it shouldn't work for someone else

The repetitive aspect I did mention purely as a consequence of playing the game for 9 hours; the music obviously is not repetitive per se.

Like i said (again) if you find it repetitive change the music

No, that's not what it means. Try not to put words in my mouth, okay? Please?

It means exactly what you said (control the dictionary) if you want to modify it you want it to be different

Changing the level cap to L28 (this was only an example, it could have been L27 or L30) doesn't make the game easier if the opponent Pokemon scale up with it, not just in terms of their level, but also in terms of their movesets, or held items, etc.

You would be right if the opponent was a person but against an NPC at level 30 you have more options/moves than against the same NPC at level 25 (some of your Pokemon may even evolve) so yea the games becomes easier

Like i already said walking around is meant for exploration (if you follow only the main storyline there is very little backtracking)...ahh...see? We're going in circles, this is pointless.

[dondon151]

Wow! Thank you for taking your time to read through that quagmire of text. I'll try to be both thorough and brief with my response.

A change I've wanted to make since the day/night system was implemented. Unfortunately when it decides screen tint it considers everything from hemisphere, to date and timezone, meaning making these changes is not as simple as it should be. In short, I don't presently know how to do it.

This is a fair enough excuse. I'm obviously not the Reborn game designer, but I've done some (Pokemon and Fire Emblem) ROMhacking and I know full well that certain things are deceptively difficult to implement.

The removal of Abra and Ralts had nothing to do with teleport. I'm not going to remove a field move just because I occasionally make careless glitches because of it. That's my fault and can be fixed. Mostly.

After Aya, there is a teleport option available in ralts. Baltoy is a challenging potential before then, but as weak as Natu is I don't want it in too early because of Magic Bounce. Baltoy could maybe be around the Shelly gym part of the game without causing too many issues, but that's only a few episodes of difference.

A few episodes of difference is no small difference. The location guide says that Ralts requires Magnet Powder from 7th street? I seem to recall that I found a Magnet Powder in the other factory in Peridot Ward, but I could be misremembering.

Anyway, unless I'm vastly underestimating Magic Bounce, I don't see it as an overly strong ability in-game. There's no use in redirecting Spikes or Stealth Rock (not that there are many, if any, opponent Pokemon using those moves), and its ability to redirect status moves is no stronger than a Pokemon with Thunder Wave, Will-o-Wisp, Sleep Powder, etc. The biggest issue I can think of is that it messes up the AI, but Lightningrod et al. do the same thing.

The in-game tier list ranks Espeon below some of its fellow evolutions despite having access to Magic Bounce. Theoretically, the best solution would be to experiment and see if it ends up being too strong, but that potentially wastes time on your part if it does prove to be too strong. I can assure you that as is, no one uses Xatu because its level up movepool is horrid.

A few comments:
-- The level curve of the early-game is balanced for a team of 6. If you're using fewer than that, then common candies are expected; I don't think that's avoidable.
-- Being ~10 levels below Samson is normal and expected; Unfortunately I had to jack his level way up to make him challenging, but I'm hoping EV control and AI improvements in 13 will help him, since despite that he's one of the easiest leaders yet.

I think it's a bit unreasonable to assume that players have a team of 6 Pokemon so early in the game. The main reason is that the diversity of Pokemon early in the game is necessarily smaller compared to later in the game. But regardless of this detail, it's still true that Pokemon level up faster early in the game compared to later in the game because of the cubic/quadratic/linear disparities in the experience-related curves.

For example, a L16 Combusken might only have to defeat 3 L16 Pokemon to gain a level, but a L56 Blaziken will have to defeat more than 3 L56 Pokemon to gain a level, even if the L56 Pokemon are evolved and the L16 Pokemon aren't.

I do not currently agree that the level limits should not always be 5, because that becomes rather unclear to trainers and will be harder to remember than it already apparently is. The feedback by whomever, it might have been you, that the faq is just checked every time anyway, is valuable. I know now that I need to find somewhere in-game to display the level limit for each badge-- I'm thinking the Trainer Card will be easiest. Once the level limits are readable in-game I could consider non-5 limits.

This is a fantastic idea.

Actually, that kind of was the purpose. With Pokemon like that that are relatively strong for their part of the game I lower the level to discourage everyone picking them up out of convenience. My hope is that the levels are in a range that people who want to use that Pokemon because they like it won't mind putting a little extra time into it, and that people who would just be using it because it's 'good' will think twice before committing to it.

I understand your intention, but some of these guys are nigh unusable without sinking time into a patch of grass. For the Sandile example in particular, they exist at L21 in a cave where the Sandshrew are L42 - meaning the Sandshrew have Swords Dance already, learn Earthquake in 4 levels, and/or can evolve immediately. Is Sandile really that much better than Sandshrew that it deserves to appear 21 levels lower? Sandslash is probably actually better overall because it has Swords Dance and Fury Cutter.

For the Growlithe example, I wasn't aware that Growlithe could be considered to be a strong Pokemon. It's stuck in its unevolved form until the player grabs the Fire Stone from the volcano near Apophyll Beach, or until it learns its Fire type STAB of choice, whichever comes first. It's also in the slow experience group.

Wild levels are much the same. For new species, I don't necessarily want people to just level it once and it automatically evolves, so I keep some species low for that reason. By now we're at a high enough level that that doesn't matter for anything not from Kalos, but I seem to have made a habit of making newly-introduced species lower-leveled for the first area they appear in. My reasoning is as above; if people like it they'll catch it anyway. Otherwise, should it really be on-par with the team they've been training all game?

The converse line of reasoning is that if it's really underleveled, then a better idea is to not use it. I don't think that wild Pokemon should be on par with opponent trainer levels (which are in turn generally on par with player Pokemon levels), but rather than being 11 levels lower, they should be 5 levels lower. This depends on the point in the game, because level differences matter more early on when relative stat differences are greater. (Like, a 5 level difference is okay when the average team level is L50, but not okay when the average team level is L25).

Keeping species at a low level just so they don't evolve upon leveling up comes at the cost of making that Pokemon completely unusable without grinding. You're going to have to convince me why instant evolution is a bad thing; I just don't see it...

Should it be? I always thought of it as one of the most valuable potential side-quest rewards, so I saved it for a rather involved quest. So what is actually the benefit of the EXP share? It saves some time, and it saves your stronger Pokemon one turn of damage from the turn they switch in. I don't mind time-saving. But I think by the time we get the EXP share, party pokemon are strong enough that a player doesn't have to worry too much about those extra hits, which would have been considerable in the earlier parts of the game. As such, I don't want the EXP share being in too early.

In terms of timing, the current location of the Exp. Share is probably ideal. The benefit is, as you've pointed out, mostly cutting down on tedium, since rather than switch training, I can just plop the Exp. Share on a weaker Pokemon (like that L21 Sandile or L29 Swinub) and change the battle mode to set (and also not waste time going into the bag and using Strawberry Ice Creams). The money spent on healing items really isn't an issue at all by this point in the game.

It's definitely a valuable potential sidequest reward, but then again, so are the Bicycle and Running Shoes. None are essential, all of them save time.

I may have missed a couple of things. If I've been unclear, please point it out to me. Thank you!

It is (like i said before) it works for me so i don't understand why it shouldn't work for someone else

I've worked an IT job before and let me tell you something: this answer don't fly.

Imagine if you have a problem with your cell phone service, call tech support, and some guy on the line says, "well, it works for me, so I don't understand why it shouldn't work for you."

It means exactly what you said (control the dictionary) if you want to modify it you want it to be different

No, I'm actually all right with the level cap system. The system is in place to prevent shenanigans like starter soloing.

I'm sorry, but this is like saying that I dislike Bulbasaur, therefore I dislike Pokemon. You must understand how this is a ridiculous accusation.

You would be right if the opponent was a person but against an NPC at level 30 you have more options/moves than against the same NPC at level 25 (some of your Pokemon may even evolve) so yea the games becomes easier

Theoretically, the opponent trainer is allowed to have better moves. If you picked a Fire type starter, or picked up a Makuhita or a Trubbish, who here really thinks that Florinia is harder than Aya? I mean, you have more options and moves against Aya! (She also has more options and moves against you.)

Functionally, Makuhita evolves at L24, so the level cap change really doesn't make a difference in this aspect.

Like i already said walking around is meant for exploration (if you follow only the main storyline there is very little backtracking)...ahh...see? We're going in circles, this is pointless.

I did only follow the main storyline, and there was a heck of a lot of backtracking.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[Sheep]

For new species, I don't necessarily want people to just level it once and it automatically evolves, so I keep some species low for that reason.

*CoughRoggenrollainTanzanMountainCough*

I know Roggenrolla used to be obtainable in the caves in the Rhodochrine Jungle (is that what it's called?) but now that you've removed it from there you might want to lower the level of wild Roggenrolla in Tanzan Mountain if you want to avoid instant evolution syndrome.

Oh, there's also the Skiddo's at Route 1, a place where Flabebe is level 20 but Skiddo comes in at 39, pretty sure that's the first point at which you get both.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Sheep

[crashteamalphing]

I just wanna add one thing. You say that reducing the need to grind won't reduce the difficulty, but actually, on a statistical average for all players of the game, it will.

Since you are fond of statistical models and examples, let's take this simple one:

1) some players don't mind grinding and will grind if their Pokemon are underleveld.

2) some players hate grinding and, even if their Pokemon are underleveled, will still refuse to grind and will try to find ways to win despite being underleveled.

I am a category 2 person for the most part (even though I did grind a little bit at points, when it was really needed, like before Noel and before Radomus, because I had just included 2 new team members and needed to grind them up to the rest of the team).

So what happens if you reduce the overall need to grind? Category 1 players will still have the same team, they will not feel the effect of this change in terms of game challenge. Category 2 players, who now have a team closer to the level limit, will see that the game has become very much easier for them, and thus less challenging.

On average, for all players and situations considered, grinding improves game difficulty because many players are lazy and will tend to avoid it when they can, thus choosing the challenge of being underleveled, over the tedium of grinding their team up to par with gym leaders.

Also, you say that low level wild Pokemon discourage the use of new Pokemon in your team, but what I think is that everybody is using complete teams of 6 or more Pokemon, because for most that is the only fun way to play. Your problem is that you use a notoriously overpowered Pokemon (Blaziken) and, in terms of getting at the end of the game in the fastest way possible, as you pointed out, starter-soloing through the entire game or almost so, with Blaziken, will tend to be the optimal strategy, and adding other Pokemon will only slow you down since their simple presence means less EXP for blaziken, and thus reduces its effectiveness. Even if we gave you wild Pokemon at high levels, if you decided to include them to your team, you would soon become very underleveled because the EXP has to be shared between more Pokemon, OR you would have to battle all trainers, not just those who are mandatory -> you'd be slowed down.

[dondon151]

So what happens if you reduce the overall need to grind? Category 1 players will still have the same team, they will not feel the effect of this change in terms of game challenge. Category 2 players, who now have a team closer to the level limit, will see that the game has become very much easier for them, and thus less challenging.

On average, for all players and situations considered, grinding improves game difficulty because many players are lazy and will tend to avoid it when they can, thus choosing the challenge of being underleveled, over the tedium of grinding their team up to par with gym leaders.

Category 2 players will just use Blaziken.

I apologize for being sassy there, but this is really the best solution for category 2 players, and the overall effect is that lower leveled wild Pokemon will not affect game difficulty because they can simply be ignored. For all of the challenge-seeking that category 2 players do, they're not going to be winning many battles with a Mamoswine that's 18 levels lower than opposing trainers (this is after 2 Rare Candies and a whole lot of switch training to begin with), and the gap is only going to widen.

What you're suggesting here is that the game will be harder on average because there exist players who want to shoot themselves in the foot. There are a million ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

Your problem is that you use a notoriously overpowered Pokemon (Blaziken) and, in terms of getting at the end of the game in the fastest way possible, as you pointed out, starter-soloing through the entire game or almost so, with Blaziken, will tend to be the optimal strategy, and adding other Pokemon will only slow you down since their simple presence means less EXP for blaziken, and thus reduces its effectiveness. Even if we gave you wild Pokemon at high levels, if you decided to include them to your team, you would soon become very underleveled because the EXP has to be shared between more Pokemon, OR you would have to battle all trainers, not just those who are mandatory -> you'd be slowed down.

So this is not true. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I don't enjoy starter soloing - the Pokemon White 0 EXP speedrun is evidence of that. It's entirely possible to use a team of 2-3 Pokemon in Reborn without being underleveled, mostly because of the level cap. Less available experience for Blaziken is also not a big issue, because the level cap restricts him from being incredibly overleveled.

But let's suppose that wild Sigilyph appeared at L51 instead of L45. I would now be far more likely to consider using Sigilyph (possibly ditching an existing team member to do so). Currently, I would not bother using it at all - I ended up doing so, but in retrospect, it was a decision that I regret.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[crashteamalphing]

I guess I see exactly what your problem is, and how it could be fixed by doing the things you say. The question is, would those fixes really make the game less tedious while maintaining the same challenge, on average and not just for your particular case? You reason in a certain way, but many other people have a different way of thinking, and solving problems, and their game experience might be very different from yours.

Every time we look at a particular situation, we tend to lose sight of the bigger picture, which is what a game developer must be looking at.

For example, the game trend is to propose bad Pokemon at the start, and then progressively better ones. On average, it seems to give the choice between keeping your bad Pokemon, or changing them mid game for their better equivalent, but at the cost of having to grind them. One point this game is trying to make is that the easy way(using good pokemon) will be the tedious way, and the non tedious, non grinding way(using bad pokemon) will be the challenging way. In other words, the game discourages you from taking the easy way out.

That is a general reasoning that certainly does not hold true in all situations, as you can always find specific counter examples. For example, in your case, you chose Blaziken as a starter, which means you did not have to make the choice between challenge or tedium. You chose neither. In my opinion, the mere possibility of having Blaziken at the start of the game is a major design flaw, but whatever...

Still on average, probably no more than 15% of the players will choose Blaziken as opposed to the 17 other starters, so assuming everyone is going to use it is a very bad assumption to begin with.

EDIT: I just realised some of this topic was about the game being too dark. I think there's an easy way to change for Ame to change that. It's just in the scripts, in the first lines of Pokemon_Time or whatever that section is called. There, the screen tones for each hour are defined, and you can make them less dark by changing the Red and Green values. Currently they're at like, -140 (out of 255). Making them -100 instead, and scaling everything proportionately should improve visibility.

So, to Ame, I don't understand what problems you're having with this? I've tried to change those values, and it seems to be working...

Edited July 25, 2014 by crashteamalphing

[Gaunt]

This person is just impossible to reason with so after this post i will not bother anymore, ok for the last time:

No, I'm actually all right with the level cap system. The system is in place to prevent shenanigans like starter soloing.

I'm sorry, but this is like saying that I dislike Bulbasaur, therefore I dislike Pokemon. You must understand how this is a ridiculous accusation.

You are in no way all right with the level cap system because you proposed to change it there is no denying that.

Theoretically, the opponent trainer is allowed to have better moves. If you picked a Fire type starter, or picked up a Makuhita or a Trubbish, who here really thinks that Florinia is harder than Aya? I mean, you have more options and moves against Aya! (She also has more options and moves against you.)

Functionally, Makuhita evolves at L24, so the level cap change really doesn't make a difference in this aspect.

We are not talking about Makuhita (or any other Pokemon in specific) we're talking about the overall difficulty of an NPC and i'm 100% sure that Florinia (for example) is harder to beat with lv 25 Pokemon than with lv 30 Pokemon so your proposition would reduce the difficulty of the encounter thus making the game easier.

And that's it like Dobby said before me i'm done

I'm done talking in circles about the same things over and over again GG man

[dondon151]

I guess I see exactly what your problem is, and how it could be fixed by doing the things you say. The question is, would those fixes really make the game less tedious while maintaining the same challenge, on average and not just for your particular case? You reason in a certain way, but many other people have a different way of thinking, and solving problems, and their game experience might be very different from yours.

Every time we look at a particular situation, we tend to lose sight of the bigger picture, which is what a game developer must be looking at.

I do try to keep the big picture in mind. One problem that a game developer has to take into account is the unintentional consequences of introduced incentives. For example, one of the intentions of introducing Brawl's (the Super Smash Bros. game) air dodge system was to encourage aerial combat. The actual unintended consequences were that it promoted camping and provided a way to mitigate knockback. And for what it's worth, aerial combat was better in Melee because of faster falling speed and greater hitstun, but we never identified it as an intentional consequence of those design choices.

Here's another example: I was in the process of designing a Pokemon Fire Red ROMhack and had the standard fare of Bulbasaur available as a starter, Caterpie available in Viridian Forest, Paras available in Mt. Moon, etc. I thought, particularly in the case of the latter two Pokemon, well they're pretty bad, so I should give them early sleep-inducing moves to compensate.

The intended consequence was to give the player an incentive to use those Pokemon for a short amount of time. The unintended consequence was that they were way better than any other Pokemon at the time, so the easiest way to go about the game was to spam them for their sleeping moves and ditch them once better Pokemon came along. (For reference, this was a hack where all battles were double battles, so sleep inducer could be paired with overleveled starter Pokemon for an easy time.)

(Side note: humorously enough, I also had Ralts available in the earlygame, catchable at L7 on Route 2 with Confusion already learned and all that jazz, and all of my playtesters complained to me that it was so bad that it wasn't worth using.)

For example, the game trend is to propose bad Pokemon at the start, and then progressively better ones. On average, it seems to give the choice between keeping your bad Pokemon, or changing them mid game for their better equivalent, but at the cost of having to grind them. One point this game is trying to make is that the easy way(using good pokemon) will be the tedious way, and the non tedious, non grinding way(using bad pokemon) will be the challenging way. In other words, the game discourages you from taking the easy way out.

That is a general reasoning that certainly does not hold true in all situations, as you can always find specific counter examples. For example, in your case, you chose Blaziken as a starter, which means you did not have to make the choice between challenge or tedium. You chose neither. In my opinion, the mere possibility of having Blaziken at the start of the game is a major design flaw, but whatever...

I think this principle can be applied almost regardless of which starter you pick. Torchic is extremely good (with or without Speed Boost), Chimchar is slightly worse because it lacks a good boosting move. Fennekin does well against different Pokemon than Torchic and Chimchar, but it also looks to be fairly good. Most starters can be counted on to steamroll past most opponents save for a subset of bosses it has type disadvantages against. The easiest way to get through the early game is to get by on the bare minimum necessary until better Pokemon show up, and not many of those are usable because of their low starting levels.

I don't personally think that Pokemon like Mankey and Makuhita are intrinsically bad. They just require way more time to level up when compared to steamrolling through the Onyx Trainer School with a L25 starter. Trubbish is unfortunately pretty garbage, though. Aside from those guys in the Obsidia slums, earlygame Pokemon (i.e., before the first badge) can't really be underleveled because they gain EXP very quickly. I ended up skipping most of the event Pokemon because at the time, I couldn't figure out how to get a lot of them to appear, or their sidequests took too long and I had enough trouble navigating Peridot Ward to begin with because of the super dark night time palette.

So in Reborn, Ame introduced a couple of incentives with the intention to encourage the player to use normally poor Pokemon. The unintended consequence of these incentives is that it's simpler if the player chooses to not use them anyway. The incentive against using normally great Pokemon, i.e. setting their starting level to be very low, worked too well - it's simpler to not use them anyway, especially when decent viable alternatives exist. For players who don't care about grinding, these incentives and disincentives don't really exist.

This person is just impossible to reason with so after this post i will not bother anymore, ok for the last time:

You are in no way all right with the level cap system because you proposed to change it there is no denying that.

Haha, I'm impossible to reason with? For the final time, I don't have a problem with the level cap system. I think it's great that there is a system in place that strongly discourages starter soloing and is actually not completely ineffective at doing so. I only have a problem, really, with one particular level cap within the system, hence my analogy: your claim that I have a problem with the system because I think L25 is too low for the first badge is like a claim that I hate all Pokemon because I dislike Bulbasaur.

I would like to appeal to the audience: have I or have I not been clear with this distinction?

We are not talking about Makuhita (or any other Pokemon in specific) we're talking about the overall difficulty of an NPC and i'm 100% sure that Florinia (for example) is harder to beat with lv 25 Pokemon than with lv 30 Pokemon so your proposition would reduce the difficulty of the encounter thus making the game easier.

Yes, that's if Florinia kept her Pokemon at an average of L24. Obviously, if the badge level cap was raised to L28 or L30, then Florinia's Pokemon would be scaled up to an average of L27 or L29, as will the Pokemon of every other trainer to a smaller extent.

Am I not clear about this? I would like to appeal to the audience once more: was I being confusing in any way?

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[crashteamalphing]

I think this principle can be applied almost regardless of which starter you pick. Torchic is extremely good (with or without Speed Boost), Chimchar is slightly worse because it lacks a good boosting move. Fennekin does well against different Pokemon than Torchic and Chimchar, but it also looks to be fairly good. Most starters can be counted on to steamroll past most opponents save for a subset of bosses it has type disadvantages against. The easiest way to get through the early game is to get by on the bare minimum necessary until better Pokemon show up, and not many of those are usable because of their low starting levels.

that is actually something I agree with. Starters are too powered compared to the other early game pokemon. If I were to design a game, I would give weaker Pokemon as starter Pokemon. However, this clearly isn't something which Ame considers doing. Therefore, the whole "Pokemon get better as you move on" isn't true for the starters, which is a problem. If you started with a Weedle, things would be a lot more interesting in my opinion.

"So in Reborn, Ame introduced a couple of incentives with the intention to encourage the player to use normally poor Pokemon. The unintended consequence of these incentives is that it's simpler if the player chooses to not use them anyway."

If that's true, that is only because the game isn't optimally designed. The idea behind that is still pretty good, and rather than dismissing it because it doesn't work, Ame should rather focus on trying to make it work. Forcing the players to make the choice between good pokemon or tedium is a good idea, perhaps it just needs to be better implemented.

Also, "trubbish is pretty garbage". Really? It has toxic spikes, which means that it does huge damage to a team when they don't have poison types. Same with SR pokemon who can destroy single handedly trainers like Shelly or Bennett.

Edited July 25, 2014 by crashteamalphing

[Felicity]

Ok, return: Dude, it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself a lot. A desire to change a system, like gaunt said, means that you are NOT satisfied with what is in place already, and yet you claim you are fine with it? That's a straight contradiction, no way around it. That results in confusion. 'nuff said. Next, it has been said before that you are assuming people will use blaziken, or whatever the strongest pokemon appears to be, but many people have different views and playstyles that different pokemon conform to. In order to build the best team for them, they may wish to use a pokemon that helps fill gaps on their team. Go look at the numerous threads of people asking for improvements on their in game team here in the forums. You cannot assume people will be in the same situation as you like this, what about those who chose chikorita, or tepig? These are nowhere near as strong, so people have to put in the effort to supplement the weaknesses and sometimes even boost the pokemons strengths.

Also, Ame stated this beforehand, she doesn't want to hit the 100 milestone too quickly. If you raise the level cap, what about all the smaller mini bosses, like Zel and the PULSE tangrowth, or Aster and Eclipse? raising the cap doesn't just affect Florinia and the trainers, it will have an effect on battles that are incredibly difficult to gauge the players level.

Also, there is no audience dude, This is an argument, not a trial

[dondon151]

If that's true, that is only because the game isn't optimally designed. The idea behind that is still pretty good, and rather than dismissing it because it doesn't work, Ame should rather focus on trying to make it work. Forcing the players to make the choice between good pokemon or tedium is a good idea, perhaps it just needs to be better implemented.

I sort of like it, and I sort of don't. On the one hand, it's a novel concept, but on the other hand, the whole idea behind telling the player that he's not allowed to use his favorite Pokemon is very effective at detracting from the fun aspect.

Also, "trubbish is pretty garbage". Really? It has toxic spikes, which means that it does huge damage to a team when they don't have poison types. Same with SR pokemon who can destroy single handedly trainers like Shelly or Bennett.

Nah, I just wanted to say that Trubbish was garbage.

But really, it's pretty bad. You use it for Toxic Spikes to make Florinia easier (you can do this with a freshly caught L14 Trubbish from the slums); it's mostly useless after that because its offense is bad, its STAB is a bad type, Toxic Spikes is ineffective in a lot of major boss battles, and you really don't need Toxic Spikes to win these battles.

Ok, return: Dude, it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself a lot. A desire to change a system, like gaunt said, means that you are NOT satisfied with what is in place already, and yet you claim you are fine with it? That's a straight contradiction, no way around it. That results in confusion. 'nuff said.

It's not a contradiction. I've already explained twice why it's not a contradiction. Don't let's pretend that there's no difference between asking to change one badge level cap and doing away with badge level caps altogether.

Next, it has been said before that you are assuming people will use blaziken, or whatever the strongest pokemon appears to be, but many people have different views and playstyles that different pokemon conform to. In order to build the best team for them, they may wish to use a pokemon that helps fill gaps on their team. Go look at the numerous threads of people asking for improvements on their in game team here in the forums. You cannot assume people will be in the same situation as you like this, what about those who chose chikorita, or tepig? These are nowhere near as strong, so people have to put in the effort to supplement the weaknesses and sometimes even boost the pokemons strengths.

I have already covered all of my bases regarding this issue. If a player wants to grind, then he will pick whatever Pokemon he wants to and grind. Any suggestions that I proposed would not adversely affect such a player (he would actually benefit, because there would be less time required for grinding). If a player doesn't want to grind, the path of least resistance through the game is Blaziken & Friends, and there is an overall lack of incentive to do otherwise.

Also, Ame stated this beforehand, she doesn't want to hit the 100 milestone too quickly. If you raise the level cap, what about all the smaller mini bosses, like Zel and the PULSE tangrowth, or Aster and Eclipse? raising the cap doesn't just affect Florinia and the trainers, it will have an effect on battles that are incredibly difficult to gauge the players level.

On the L100 cap issue: keep in mind that I actually advocated reducing the lategame level caps, not increasing them.

On the trainer balance issue: I'm not sure if you realize that Ame went through all of the trouble to assign trainer Pokemon their levels the first time around. Having to rebalance trainers is not a reason for not... rebalancing trainers. Speaking from personal ROMhacking experience, adjusting trainer levels to anticipate a level curve is very simple to do. Designing maps and scripting events take far more time.

Also, there is no audience dude, This is an argument, not a trial

The point of communication is to allow other people to understand ideas. I'm simply asking others to verify or deny that I've done a poor job at communication. I've tried my best to be as lucid on this point as I can, and it seems that only you and Gaunt continue to take issue with my intended meaning despite my repeated attempts at explanation.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dondon151

[TheRockGhost72]

Why can't we all just get along and take down team meteor together?

[Felicity]

Ok, i see the miscommunication, i think. I understand that you don't want to do away with the whole system. But change doesn't just mean replacing the whole shebang, agreed? That said, you aren't satisfied with the current state of affairs, correct?

Next, you pointed out another contradiction with you pointing out your advocacy of lower late game levels. What you suggest with the badges would go against this, as you would allow, emphasis on this, Allow players to grow faster, demanding the Npcs do the same, ergo higher late game levels.

Next, that "path of least resistance" may not be the case for some people, depending on how they play, like i said. They may DEMOLISH with a bulky team rather than the sweepers you employ, i know i certainly had an easy time with a team consisting of Torterra, quagsire, ampharos, gothitelle Ninetales and a noivern, most being more bulky than many of their counterparts but unable to solo gym leaders. FYI, that includes Noivern, he could not Solo samson without grinding, but he did one hell of a job at lvl 61.

[Felicity]

Why can't we all just get along and take down team meteor together?

Pfffft, Lin don't give a toss 'bout any o' this, she's gonna Slaughter everyone, regardless of anything

[TheRockGhost72]

Pfffft, Lin don't give a toss 'bout any o' this, she's gonna Slaughter everyone, regardless of anything

Lol, what?