Team Feedback Post Samson

[Kalaylay]

Hello everyone. I recently beat the latest episode, and was hoping for some feedback on my current team. Any criticism is welcome.

Blitz the Blaziken lv 70 [speed Boost] Lonely @black belt

Bulk Up

Brave bird

Blaze kick

High Jump Kick

The premier sweeper of my team. Single-handedly swept Norman and Luna. Bulk up is basically a holder for protect, but serves a similar purpose of allowing Blaziken to tank hits while he gets a boost from speedboost. Brave bird is for coverage. I chose blaze kick over flare blitz because the recoil was stopping me from sweeping. High jump kick for obvious reasons.

Darko the Scrafty lv 66 [Moxie] Naive

Crunch

High Jump Kick

Head smash

Brick break

Crunch and High jump kick are for stab. The rest are fillers for now.

UFO the Magnezone lv 64 [Analytic] Modest

Discharge

Flash Cannon

Thunderwave

Charge beam

Charge beam is filler. Discharge is for stab. Thunder wave is for status inducing big threats. Flash cannon is for stab.

War Elephant the Donphan lv 60 [sturdy] Naughty

Ice Shard

Earthquake

Thunder Fang

Sunny Day

Ice shard for that sweet priority. War elephant also sets up the sun for Blaziken. Thunder fang for coverage. Earthquake is pretty self-explanatory.

Alakazam (Nickname needed) lv 66 [Magic Guard] Modest @focus band

Psychic

Shadow Ball

Charge Beam

Teleport

Teleport for transportation. Psychic-obvious. Shadow ball for coverage. Charge beam is for coverage but is really filler.

Poseidon the Vaporeon lv 63 [Water Absorb] Quiet @big root

Surf(once i get it)

Aqua ring

Shadow ball

Aurora beam

Surf=obvious, Aqua ring is complimented by big root. Big root increases the amount of health restored. Shadow ball is filler. Aurora beam is filler for ice beam.

[Etesian]

1. Scarp Blaze Kick for Flare Blitz, way better power and accuracy. Instead of Bluk Up, you could breed for Baton Pass to give the speed boosts to someone else or Night Slash to hit Psychic types hard. You don't really need to sweep, If Blaziken can take out even 2 foes, the rest of your team can handle the rest. Baton Pass would actually help your team a lot, since it's rather slow.

2.There's an item in the Obsidia Dept. Store that increases the holders accuracy if it goes last. With that, High Jump Kick has 99% accuracy. You could breed a Hitmonchan with a Buneary, then that with Scrafty to get the 3 elemental punches onto Scrafty. You could aslo breed for Zen Headbutt.

3.Metal Sound and Screech are worth looking at. They halve the foes (sp)defense, essentially doubling your attack against that foe. With Analytic, Thunder Wave may not be that great, but it can help the rest of the team. Charge Beam can have almost perfect accuracy with the item I mentioned.

4.You could use a Smeargle to get Rock Slide as well as Ice Shard onto Donphan. I'd recommend using Knock Off as well, especially because you already have an electric attacker and Sunny Day only helps one move of your entire team, Blaze Kick, while weakening another, Surf. I'd say there's better Ground types than Donhpan.

5. You could swap Charge Beam for Calm Mind, it's guaranteed to increase Sp.Atk, as well as increase Sp.Def. Even super-effectively, Charge Beam is weaker than neutral Psychic due to STAB. Reflect is also very useful, esoecialy with Light Clay.

6. It's not certain we'll get Surf in the next episode, so don't get your hopes up too high. Really, without TMs, Vaporeon isn't all that good, IMO.

I'd say swap Donphan and Vaporeon. Instead of Vaporeon, you could get either a Swampert or an Empoleon.

Empoleon can have a much better moveset than Vaporeon, I'm thinking Scald, Ice Beam, Agility and Drill Peck. Get a Simipour and teach it Scald, as well as a Remoraid and Ice Beam. Hit a wild male Smeargle with Scald so Sketch copies it, but make sure Smeargle survives. Catch that Smeargle. Level Smeargle to the next x1 level, as Smeargle learns Sketch every x1 level (11,21,31, etc.). Encounter a new Smeargle, use Ice Beam on it. The wild Smeargle will Sketch Ice Beam, switch your Smeargle in and Sketch it's Ice Beam. You'll then have a male Smeargle with Ice Beam and Scald. Then, breed that male Smeargle with a female Buizel, level a new male Buizel to learn Agility and breed that with a female Piplup. If the gender of any "breeding components" is wrong, breed it with a Ditto and wait for a Pokemon with proper gender.

Instead of Donphan, I'd recommend a Durant with Hustle (breed with Crustle/Shuckle for Rock Slide), Excadrill (breed with Smeargle/Zangoose for X-Scissor), Crustle with Shell Smash and Weak Armor (breed with Geodude for Earthquake), Archeops (breed Wooper with Corsola, then Corsola with Archeops for an Archeops with Earthquake), Crobat (maybe go Special by breeding Nasty Plot onto it), Drapion (breed with Ninjask for Swords Dance), Gengar (breed a Stunfisk which learned Thunderbolt with a Grimer, then level the new Grimer until it learns Sludge Bomb and breed it with gastly to have it learn Thunderbolt and Sludge Bomb), Nidoking with Sheer Force (breed with Smeargle for Ice Beam and Thunderbolt), Leavanny (get it next update, in E12 Sticky Web doesn't work and Sewaddle doesn't learn it, both will be fixed for E13)...

There's a few more options, but that should do it.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Etesian

[Kalaylay]

Wow, thanks for the suggestions! This is really thorough. However, I'm seeing a huge fighting weakness if i replaced Vaporeon with Empoleon, or Donphan with Durant, Crustle, Excadrill or Archeops. This is especially a problem because Magnezone and Scrafty are already weak to fighting too.

What swampert set do you suggest?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Kalaylay

[WanderoftheColossus]

^ Have to agree with comments above. Vaporeon just isn't up to par. If you want an eveeloution i'd recommend Sylveon, its a bit on the slow side normally but it can take a couple of hits and deal out massive damage. As long as it has Pixilate as its ability and knows moonblast, misty terrain and last resort you're golden. When set up right my sylveon ko's an entire team without a problem. Pixilate boosts fairy type attacks by 30% I think and it turns all normal type attacks (swift and last resort) into fairy type moves. Give it a pixie plate and that will boost stats even more. Throw out Misty Terrain and then use moonblast and that becomes empowered as well. Sylveon is a force to be reckoned with

[Etesian]

Wow, thanks for the suggestions! This is really thorough. However, I'm seeing a huge fighting weakness if i replaced Vaporeon with Empoleon, or Donphan with Durant, Crustle, Excadrill or Archeops. This is especially a problem because Magnezone and Scrafty are already weak to fighting too.

What swampert set do you suggest?

Actually, of all of those, only Excadril is weak to fighting, while everything else I listed is also neutral to it at worst, Gengar is even immune to it. With Drill Peck, Empoleon can at least do serious damage to a fighting type before going down, especially if you use Agility to make sure you get at least one hit on it. And Durant is freaking amazing, Attack, Defense and Speed above 100 +50% more Attack with Hustle, 512 foes are hit super-effectively with it's STAB and Rock and Ground moves, and an amazing defensive typing, with only one weakness and plenty of resistances.

As for Swampert, you can go physical or special, really.

Physical Swampert could have Dive, Hammer Arm, Earthquake and Rock Slide/Double-Edge. Get the Tirtouga from the Circus puzzle to breed Rock Slide.

Special Swampert would have Water Pledge, Ice Beam, Sludge Wave and Ancient Power/Mud Bomb/Hidden Power. Your best Ground STAB would be Mud Bomb, but you do get a strong Ice attack. Still, I'd recommend a Physical set.

EDIT: Just to note, I'm using Dive, Hammer Arm, Earthquake adn Sludge Wave. I taught it Sludge Wave for Noel's Clefairy and kept it for lack of a better breeding-less move.

EDIT2: I'd also say you shouldn't have to worry about Fighting moves so much. Not only are we past the Fighting Gym already, Alakazam and Blaziken cover that weakness nicely. My team has 3 Rock weaknesses and I'm not worrying about the Hardy fight because I have my ways to cover that type easily.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Etesian

[RebornRanger]

for a swampert

-EQ (for obvious reasons)

-waterfall ( bred with goldeen/remoraid)

- avalanche (bred with aurorus)

-hammer arm/protect

[Etesian]

Waterfall and Dive have the same power and Waterfall's flinch chance is useless with Swampert's low speed. Dive is also way easier to get, especially because getting both bred onto Swampert is currently impossible, but from E13 onward, both parents will be able to pass on moves. I also think Amaura is a pain to get, you have to find a Helix fossil, only obtainable through mining at a very, very low rate.

[Ultra]

Have to disagree with needing to replace Donphan. It's a very good option, Swampert is good in its own regard and a very bulky pokemon but Donphan surpasses it in physical bulk and attack, filling its own niche. You can breed one with Play Rough/Rock Slide/Stone Edge for coverage that compliments ground nicely, and Ice Shard is a good move, too.

[Etesian]

We actually said to swap Vaporeon with Swampert and Donphan with any of the others I mentioned, of which all but Leavanny, Crobat and Drapion have more power, but Leavanny has great STABs, resistances and an entry hazard move, Drapion has only one weakness, an entry hazard, Swords Dance, and great STABs as well, and Crobat has the same good traits Leavanny has bar the entry hazard plus the speed.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Etesian

[Ultra]

We actually said to swap Vaporeon with Swampert and Donphan with any of the others I mentioned, of which all but Leavanny, Crobat and Drapion have more power, but Leavanny has great STABs, resistances and an entry hazard move, Drapion has only one weakness, an entry hazard, Swords Dance, and great STABs as well, and Crobat has the same good traits Leavanny has bar the entry hazard plus the speed.

Your suggestions aren't bad, but none of the pokemon you listed outclass it and have their own respective faults, I wouldn't call them better options. Even Excadrill, an overall great pokemon, has its shortcomings, at least in-game (Bad bulk, common weaknesses, speed is eh, struggles against walls). None of the pokemon you suggest fit the role Donphan does, Durant, Excadrill and Archeops are all sweepers/glass cannons.

Vaporeon can take a walk, though.

@OP: Run Baton Pass + Bulk Up/other set up on your Blaziken. Swords Dance would be ideal but I don't know how you can breed that on. You don't really need additional coverage for Blaziken, he's not really suited to deal with the few things he could use coverage for, in that case just BP your boosts.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Ultra

[dondon151]

Your Blaziken actually has a near-optimal moveset already. Bulk Up allows it to sweep without doing the convoluted method of passing speed boosts to another Pokemon. Flare Blitz's recoil hinders its ability to sweep, especially against opponents that resist HJK.

[Ultra]

Your Blaziken actually has a near-optimal moveset already. Bulk Up allows it to sweep without doing the convoluted method of passing speed boosts to another Pokemon. Flare Blitz's recoil hinders its ability to sweep, especially against opponents that resist HJK.

How does Flare Blitz inhibit sweeping? Having Blaze Kick runs the risk of falling short of KOing and then getting hit, usually harder than what FB recoil could do to you because Blaziken's poor bulk.

You really shouldn't expect to 6-0 your opponent with Blaziken anyway. It can do that in some circumstance, but you shouldn't inhibit Blaziken to (marginally) improve its chances of doing so. Being able to sweep up to 3-4 pokes is good as it is.

[Etesian]

Your suggestions aren't bad, but none of the pokemon you listed outclass it and have their own respective faults, I wouldn't call them better options. Even Excadrill, an overall great pokemon, has its shortcomings, at least in-game (Bad bulk, common weaknesses, speed is eh, struggles against walls). None of the pokemon you suggest fit the role Donphan does, Durant, Excadrill and Archeops are all sweepers/glass cannons.

Really now? All Donphan has is good physical bulk, strong STAB Earthquake and priority Ice Shard. Funny you should talk about bad bulk with that special defense Donphan has. Of those I listed, only Gengar is less Specially bulky, almost all of them have a better defensive typing. And priority is meanigless with the high speed stats most of these have. Hell, what's wrong with having sweepers? Magnezone, Scrafty and Swampert are already enough bulk for the team, why not go for some strong attackers then. And how is Durant a "glass cannon" with a steel typing and 112 base Defense? It has only 48 Sp.defense, sure, but it's typing still makes that far better than Donphan's 60. Excadrill's weaknesses are about as frequent as Donphan's, except it's typing essentially doubles it's defense against it's plentiful resistances. The speed is still superior to Donphan's, can be patched up after a single turn with Sandstorm and "struggles against walls"? Seriously? Something with 135 base attack and access to Swords Dance? Sure. And although Archeops is not that bulky, it's speed and power take 2/3rds of Donphan's "niche" away.

[RebornRanger]

Really now? All Donphan has is good physical bulk, strong STAB Earthquake and priority Ice Shard. Funny you should talk about bad bulk with that special defense Donphan has. Of those I listed, only Gengar is less Specially bulky, almost all of them have a better defensive typing. And priority is meanigless with the high speed stats most of these have. Hell, what's wrong with having sweepers? Magnezone, Scrafty and Swampert are already enough bulk for the team, why not go for some strong attackers then. And how is Durant a "glass cannon" with a steel typing and 112 base Defense? It has only 48 Sp.defense, sure, but it's typing still makes that far better than Donphan's 60. Excadrill's weaknesses are about as frequent as Donphan's, except it's typing essentially doubles it's defense against it's plentiful resistances. The speed is still superior to Donphan's, can be patched up after a single turn with Sandstorm and "struggles against walls"? Seriously? Something with 135 base attack and access to Swords Dance? Sure. And although Archeops is not that bulky, it's speed and power take 2/3rds of Donphan's "niche" away.

you learn not to argue with etesian after a while. anyhow he usually has very good suggestions

[Ultra]

Really now? All Donphan has is good physical bulk, strong STAB Earthquake and priority Ice Shard. Funny you should talk about bad bulk with that special defense Donphan has. Of those I listed, only Gengar is less Specially bulky, almost all of them have a better defensive typing. And priority is meanigless with the high speed stats most of these have. Hell, what's wrong with having sweepers? Magnezone, Scrafty and Swampert are already enough bulk for the team, why not go for some strong attackers then. And how is Durant a "glass cannon" with a steel typing and 112 base Defense? It has only 48 Sp.defense, sure, but it's typing still makes that far better than Donphan's 60. Excadrill's weaknesses are about as frequent as Donphan's, except it's typing essentially doubles it's defense against it's plentiful resistances. The speed is still superior to Donphan's, can be patched up after a single turn with Sandstorm and "struggles against walls"? Seriously? Something with 135 base attack and access to Swords Dance? Sure. And although Archeops is not that bulky, it's speed and power take 2/3rds of Donphan's "niche" away.

If you're relying on Donphan's special defense, you're using him wrong. In fact most of his 3 weaknesses come in the form of special attacks. You're right, Donphan has great physical bulk and attack prowess, that's what you use him for.

Uh, Durant has an HP stat of 58, effectively making his defense average and his special defense wafer thing. Excadrill's weaknesses are far more common offensively than its resistances are. It's good with sandstorm, but OP doesn't have another mon running that, and his team doesn't have good synergy with it otherwise. Excadrill isn't a wallbreaker, with Swords Dance it can wreck havoc but you're not setting up in something's face usually comes with a penalty.

But like I said, I'm not arguing about the viability of the other pokemon you suggested. I'm not even saying Donphan is the better option as a whole, just that they don't outclass Donphan and Donphan isn't bad enough to need the boot. OP doesn't need a "pinnacle of Reborn" team.

OP: Defensively, your team is vulnerable to fighting, ground, water. You may want to consider a Grass type to replace Vaporeon, depending on if you value this coverage more than having water stab

Edited August 14, 2014 by Ultra

[Etesian]

you learn not to argue with etesian after a while. anyhow he usually has very good suggestions

(Really not sure. Certainly not trying to do anything beget unpleasantness, just trying to lend a hand/my opinion)

If you're relying on Donphan's special defense, you're using him wrong. In fact most of his 3 weaknesses come in the form of special attacks. You're right, Donphan has great physical bulk and attack prowess, that's what you use him for.

Uh, Durant has an HP stat of 58, effectively making his defense average and his special defense wafer thing. Excadrill's weaknesses are far more common offensively than its resistances are. It's good with sandstorm, but OP doesn't have another mon running that, and his team doesn't have good synergy with it otherwise. Excadrill isn't a wallbreaker, with Swords Dance it can wreck havoc but you're not setting up in something's face usually comes with a penalty.

But like I said, I'm not arguing about the viability of the other pokemon you suggested. I'm not even saying Donphan is the better option as a whole, just that they don't outclass Donphan and Donphan isn't bad enough to need the boot. OP doesn't need a "pinnacle of Reborn" team.

OP: Defensively, your team is vulnerable to fighting, ground, water. You may want to consider a Grass type to replace Vaporeon, depending on if you value this coverage more than having water stab

Great physical bulk and attack prowess is also what Durant has going for it. You could also say that it has 116 health against any of it's 8 resistances, but even on neutral hits, Donphan only has about 50% more health and it has so much more speed and a STAB with a 30% flinch chance that it'll take hits far less frequently. I've used Durant before, it's far from average in regards of bulk.

If you're relying on Excadrill against his weaknesses, you're using it wrong. The frequency of weaknesses also depends on the foe/gym, you're unlikely to see something like a Fire attack in something like an Electric gym, so buffing is also easy if it's done against something innefective to it. I don't assume you'd get much use out of Donphan in Serra's gym either, on that note. Sandstorm also isn't eternal, just have Excadrill learn and use it and use Rock Slide, Earthquake and either SD or some other attacking move like maybe X-Scissor. Sandstorm also does only 1/16th of max health, while Ground, Rock and Steel types take no damage from it, so his Magnezone and (future) Swampert are immune to it. Excadrill is also much more of a wall-breaker than Donphan is, even without buffs, which, again, are easy to get against innefective foes and even some neutral foes.

"Just that they don't outclass Donphan"- very argueable. You essentially admitted that Donphan is very bad at dealing with Sp.Attackers, making it mostly useless in some scenarios. Even against Fire foes, Durant has a chance to take at least one foe down with it Due to it's speed, power, and moves like Dig and Rock Slide. Most of those on the list can also either set a hazard or do some damage before going down.

Sure, there's worse teams and a "pinnacle" isn't necessary, but why struggle through a gym and beat it on the 50th try if you can make your team better and get it on the first try?

(PS:Alakazam and Blaziken can handle Fighting types easily, especially since we're past (both of) the fighting gym(s)).

[Ultra]

(Really not sure. Certainly not trying to do anything beget unpleasantness, just trying to lend a hand/my opinion)

Great physical bulk and attack prowess is also what Durant has going for it. You could also say that it has 116 health against any of it's 8 resistances, but even on neutral hits, Donphan only has about 50% more health and it has so much more speed and a STAB with a 30% flinch chance that it'll take hits far less frequently. I've used Durant before, it's far from average in regards of bulk.

If you're relying on Excadrill against his weaknesses, you're using it wrong. The frequency of weaknesses also depends on the foe/gym, you're unlikely to see something like a Fire attack in something like an Electric gym, so buffing is also easy if it's done against something innefective to it. I don't assume you'd get much use out of Donphan in Serra's gym either, on that note. Sandstorm also isn't eternal, just have Excadrill learn and use it and use Rock Slide, Earthquake and either SD or some other attacking move like maybe X-Scissor. Sandstorm also does only 1/16th of max health, while Ground, Rock and Steel types take no damage from it, so his Magnezone and (future) Swampert are immune to it. Excadrill is also much more of a wall-breaker than Donphan is, even without buffs, which, again, are easy to get against innefective foes and even some neutral foes.

"Just that they don't outclass Donphan"- very argueable. You essentially admitted that Donphan is very bad at dealing with Sp.Attackers, making it mostly useless in some scenarios. Even against Fire foes, Durant has a chance to take at least one foe down with it Due to it's speed, power, and moves like Dig and Rock Slide. Most of those on the list can also either set a hazard or do some damage before going down.

Sure, there's worse teams and a "pinnacle" isn't necessary, but why struggle through a gym and beat it on the 50th try if you can make your team better and get it on the first try?

(PS:Alakazam and Blaziken can handle Fighting types easily, especially since we're past (both of) the fighting gym(s)).

Nah, Durant doesn't have good bulk, that's it. 50% more health makes a hell of a difference, and Durant struggles to take a neutral special attack from anything worth its salt. This isn't the aspect of Durant you should be defending here - he is nice offensively, though a 20% flinch rate is annoying and can cost you big time.

Ground, Fighting, and Fire attacks are all very common as coverage moves and you can't always see them coming from a mile away. Saying Excadrill can set up against bad/ineffective match ups isn't a point of its favor, even average pokemon can do that. Putting Sandstorm on him isn't a very good idea, for obvious reasons, that role should be delegated to another pokemon on the team.

You think a team with Blaziken, Alakazam, and Magnezone, is going to need 50 attempts to make it through a gym? Reborn isn't THAT difficult.

[Etesian]

Nah, Durant doesn't have good bulk, that's it. 50% more health makes a hell of a difference, and Durant struggles to take a neutral special attack from anything worth its salt. This isn't the aspect of Durant you should be defending here - he is nice offensively, though a 20% flinch rate is annoying and can cost you big time.

Ground, Fighting, and Fire attacks are all very common as coverage moves and you can't always see them coming from a mile away. Saying Excadrill can set up against bad/ineffective match ups isn't a point of its favor, even average pokemon can do that. Putting Sandstorm on him isn't a very good idea, for obvious reasons, that role should be delegated to another pokemon on the team.

You think a team with Blaziken, Alakazam, and Magnezone, is going to need 50 attempts to make it through a gym? Reborn isn't THAT difficult.

It'll take far fewer hits than Donphan, since most foes will either flinch or faint before getting a hit on Durant, so thier bulk is effectively the same at least, if Durant takes one or two hits whenever Donphan takes three or four. That goes for Physical and Special attacks, the latter of which Donphan can't take any of either, except Durant can land a blow before going down.

You can't always see them coming, only the vast majority of the time. Even if someone surprises you, like Skuntank and it's Flamethrower, just reset and plan around it. You say that buffing is something even average Pokemon can do in front of inefective match-ups is nothing praise-worthy, but actually being able to buff is. Donphan cannot be taught Swords Dance through any means other than TM, unlike Excadrill, which we do not have. Using a slot for Sandstorm is no problem for Excadrill, as Earthquake and Rock Slide hit all but 3 pokemon for at least neutral damage. There is no real "obvious" reason, as a super-effective attack and a Swords Dance followed by a neutral attack do the same amount of damage.

You're also completely missing what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying it'll take 50 tries, I'm saying it'll take fewer tries with a better team than with the current team.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Etesian

[Ultra]

It'll take far fewer hits than Donphan, since most foes will either flinch or faint before getting a hit on Durant, so thier bulk is effectively the same at least, if Durant takes one or two hits whenever Donphan takes three or four. That goes for Physical and Special attacks, the latter of which Donphan can't take any of either, except Durant can land a blow before going down.

You can't always see them coming, only the vast majority of the time. Even if someone surprises you, like Skuntank and it's Flamethrower, just reset and plan around it. You say that buffing is something even average Pokemon can do in front of inefective match-ups is nothing praise-worthy, but actually being able to buff is. Donphan cannot be taught Swords Dance through any means other than TM, unlike Excadrill, which we do not have. Using a slot for Sandstorm is no problem for Excadrill, as Earthquake and Rock Slide hit all but 3 pokemon for at least neutral damage. There is no real "obvious" reason, as a super-effective attack and a Swords Dance followed by a neutral attack do the same amount of damage.

You're also completely missing what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying it'll take 50 tries, I'm saying it'll take fewer tries with a better team than with the current team.

Do I really have to explain why you can't account for flinching in assessing a pokemon's bulk? That's ridiculous.

As for your second point:

1. 2 set up moves = Less offensive options for an offensive pokemon.

2. Excadrill isn't going to be able to reliably set up for two turns against any pokemon by any important trainer in the game. That would require, well, a lot of luck.

3. Your "inneffective" argument is moot, because most Gym Leader pokemon aren't "ineffective". Most carry powerful STABs, coverage options, and status moves that will ruin Excadrill's day if it sits there.

It's pretty obvious you have no experience with Excadrill and lack a proper understanding of its strength's and weaknesses. It's a good pokemon, but don't bother to try and say it can do what it clearly can't for argument's sake.

Breeding a new pokemon with a good moveset and training it takes hours. 1 or 2 retries at the gym takes 20-30 mins, max.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Ultra

[Etesian]

Your accuracy must be at -6 cause you keep mising what I'm saying. The flinch chance isn't something to constantly rely on, it's just semi-frequently not taking a hit, further reducing

the importance of that extra 50% health.

Again, a boosted move is equal to an SE move. The combo of Rock and Ground has almost perfect coverage, so extra moves aren't even necessary.

O hope you're not saying that you think that every pokemon of every gym leader ever has at least one SE move for Excadrill. At least half of all the gym leader's leads have no SE attack for Excadrill. Let's not forget that your precious Donphan is still weaker and slower than unbuffed Excadrill, worst case scenario.

You're seriously preaching to me about 2 pokemon I've used the shit out of, elswhere as well as in Reborn?

[Ultra]

Your accuracy must be at -6 cause you keep mising what I'm saying. The flinch chance isn't something to constantly rely on, it's just semi-frequently not taking a hit, further reducing

the importance of that extra 50% health.

Again, a boosted move is equal to an SE move. The combo of Rock and Ground has almost perfect coverage, so extra moves aren't even necessary.

O hope you're not saying that you think that every pokemon of every gym leader ever has at least one SE move for Excadrill. At least half of all the gym leader's leads have no SE attack for Excadrill. Let's not forget that your precious Donphan is still weaker and slower than unbuffed Excadrill, worst case scenario.

You're seriously preaching to me about 2 pokemon I've used the shit out of, elswhere as well as in Reborn?

I'm not missing what you're saying, I'm dismissing it because it's silly. That flinch chance doesn't take into account switching into other pokemon to take a hit, getting outsped and taking a hit, missing (in Durant's case), etc. It's not a factor that closes the gap in bulk.

If you're at +2 Speed and Attack, then I supposed you don't need additional coverage. But, I've already addressed why Sandstorm + SD is terrible, so an extra move (Such as STAB Iron Head, or a move to cover Exca's vulnerabilities) is more useful.

You don't need a SE move to kill Excadrill in two turns. A neutral stab from an average attacker will do.

[Etesian]

Ugh, I hope we can end this soon, your last 2 "arguments" started with "Nah", not even bothering to address my point, and with simply calling it silly. To repeat myself a hundreth time, the flinch chance merely means that you'll take one hit less on occasion, about every fourth turn or so, and one more hit can already make quite a difference. Do enlighten me, how is Donphan better at switching in to take a hit than Durant? Resistance-wise, Durant has three times more chances to switch in than Donphan. There's also the fact that all of Donphan's weaknesses except maybe Grass are far more common than Fire.

Do you even see what you're typing here? Excadrill has absolutely no way of accessing Iron Head. None whatsoever. To cover it's weaknesses, it has nothing for water, it has the already mentioned Rock and Ground for Fire, nothing for Ground, and only Aerial Ace for Fighting types, which is always weaker than STAB Earthquake bar for when it is used against Hawlucha, Heracross, Pinsir, Breloom, Cheatnaught and Virizion. So do tell, what can it use to cover it's weaknesses, if actual moves to do so don't exist.

An average attacker? So something like a gym leader's ace would work as well? Lapras's Ice Beam does up to 39%, Metagross's Meteor Mash does up to 31% damage, Gengar does up to 50,1% damage (0.4% chance to 2HKO), Bisharp's Night Slash does up to 45.1% damage, Cinccino's Bullet Seed does up to 44.3% damage, Pure Power Medicham's Ice Punch does up to 35.4% damage, Tyranitar's Crunch does up to 56% damage. Up to. Without any entry hazzard damage, only Gengar and Tyranitar have a chance to actually 2HKO, and those are just those that actualy have a neutral move. There, are we done now?

Edited August 14, 2014 by Etesian

[Ultra]

Ugh, I hope we can end this soon, your last 2 "arguments" started with "Nah", not even bothering to address my point, and with simply calling it silly. To repeat myself a hundreth time, the flinch chance merely means that you'll take one hit less on occasion, about every fourth turn or so, and one more hit can already make quite a difference. Do enlighten me, how is Donphan better at switching in to take a hit than Durant? Resistance-wise, Durant has three times more chances to switch in than Donphan. There's also the fact that all of Donphan's weaknesses except maybe Grass are far more common than Fire.

Do you even see what you're typing here? Excadrill has absolutely no way of accessing Iron Head. None whatsoever. To cover it's weaknesses, it has nothing for water, it has the already mentioned Rock and Ground for Fire, nothing for Ground, and only Aerial Ace for Fighting types, which is always weaker than STAB Earthquake bar for when it is used against Hawlucha, Heracross, Pinsir, Breloom, Cheatnaught and Virizion. So do tell, what can it use to cover it's weaknesses, if actual moves to do so don't exist.

An average attacker? So something like a gym leader's ace would work as well? Lapras's Ice Beam does up to 39%, Metagross's Meteor Mash does up to 31% damage, Gengar does up to 50,1% damage (0.4% chance to 2HKO), Bisharp's Night Slash does up to 45.1% damage, Cinccino's Bullet Seed does up to 44.3% damage, Pure Power Medicham's Ice Punch does up to 35.4% damage, Tyranitar's Crunch does up to 56% damage. Up to. Without any entry hazzard damage, only Gengar and Tyranitar have a chance to actually 2HKO, and those are just those that actualy have a neutral move. There, are we done now?

Because some of your arguments are silly. Case in point: Durant isn't as bulky as Donphan, there's no arguing around that.

wops, forgot Iron Head was a 5th gen move. Doesn't change the fact that two set up moves is unreasonable, that is, if you're expecting to get off both.

Are these all accounting for the Gym Leader's best possible attacks against Excadrill? Becuase your point is moot if they have a SE attack to hit him with anyway, despite not being able to 2ko with a neutral move. Also, note that I specified a neutral STAB move should reliably 2KO. Lapras being an exception due to poor offense and Bisharp being a basic bitch for not carrying knock off.

[Etesian]

Great. So what you're saying now is "fuck you, I'm right".

Thanks for completely ignoring your mistake with coverage, appreciate it.

Are you kidding me? That was addressing your point that neutral hits 2hko, it's NOT about .super effective ones. "Bisharp being a basic bitch" glad to hear you're unbiased. Against a foe with 125 base attack. You have no answer for ANY of the others, apparently. The others with "netral STAB move"s, which you specified and I listed.

[Ultra]

Great. So what you're saying now is "fuck you, I'm right".

Thanks for completely ignoring your mistake with coverage, appreciate it.

Are you kidding me? That was addressing your point that neutral hits 2hko, it's NOT about .super effective ones. "Bisharp being a basic bitch" glad to hear you're unbiased. Against a foe with 125 base attack. You have no answer for ANY of the others, apparently. The others with "netral STAB move"s, which you specified and I listed.

Relax. If the core of this discussion was about the viability of Durant than I would entertain you, but it isn't really that important in regards to the discussion, and there's no gaining leverage on that point if you're going to reach for straws by bringing up flinching as a defensive attribute, so....yeah.

Uh, of course I didn't address the other ones. They weren't neutral STABS. I stated the "Basic bitch" thing in jest, a point in Excadrill's favor for being able to take that. Assuming it doesn't crit and that it doesn't get smacked with priority after being left with minimal HP.