This is a thread about Talonflame

[dondon151]

And it exists because I was cautioned against debating about it in the location guide thread, so here's a better place.

Context:

Talonflame is actually pretty bad-to-mediocre in-game, though.

For reference, the XY in-game tier list on Smogon has it listed in C tier. Gale Wings hardly makes a difference in-game because it already outspeeds almost everything in the 0 priority bracket.

I'm not saying that Talonflame is as broken in game as it is in competitive but it does still possess an amazing dual stab by level up combined with blistering speed.

I'm not sure how seriously you took my comment about Fletchling being C tier in Smogon's XY in-game tier list. This means that it's pretty bad. If you take a look at the line's level-up movepool, Fletchling is complete garbage until it evolves into Talonflame and learns one of its STABs by Heart Scale (probably Flare Blitz, because Acrobatics is better than Brave Bird in-game anyway). It's actually worse than Pidove prior to L35.

The only other pokemon that I can think of in the current release with as good a dual stab (off the top of my head) by level up are Blaziken, Infernape, and Heracross. All three of these are amongst the best pokemon in the game at the current point in time, no debate. Talonflame doesn't hit quite as hard as the other 3 but it is faster than all of them sans Blaziken after a turn, and also has roost by level up. It's plenty good from my point of view.

I will debunk this point by point. Plenty of Pokemon in the current release have good dual STABs. Off the top of my head, Houndoom, Swampert, Gardevoir, Camerupt, Crawdaunt, Leavanny, Scrafty, Sigilyph. And that's not exhaustive. Talonflame doesn't have a high atk stat and at least one of its STABs has recoil, which is a bit more problematic in-game because you have to fight battles in succession.

It's actually really inappropriate to compare Talonflame to Blaziken, because one effortlessly sweeps entire teams while the other doesn't. Even the comparison to Infernape is a huge stretch, because Infernape is much stronger than Talonflame and has a better STAB combination. Heracross is not a good Pokemon as of the current release because its availability is abysmal.

Roost shouldn't factor into in-game tiering at all; all recovery moves are rendered pointless by ice creams. There's really no reason to run Roost on Talonflame in-game unless you're fond of stalling.

I'm guessing you weren't around when sucker punch was broken, if talonflame is in the game everyone would have it because priority flying brave bird and this would crowd out pretty much all other fire and flying types(do people even use flying types now that staraptor and gyrados are gone?) which is something Ame really hates. Also why does the game need priority brave bird? This game is meant to be difficult if you had a poke that could outspeed everything with 120 base power move(if thats not enough slap a flying gem on it) how much of an easier time would you have with bosses like Pulse Abra, Kiki, Samson, etc.

This response is mostly incomprehensible, and some of it I addressed pre-emptively. Gale Wings hardly matters on Talonflame in-game because there are very few opponent Pokemon that it doesn't outspeed already. The few Pokemon that it does get the jump on with Gale Wings cannot be sufficient to render it broken. The conclusion that "everyone would use Talonflame" is unfounded because there's no evidence that it's a broken Pokemon, or even a really good one.

The closest point of comparison for Talonflame is Crobat. Crobat is actually in the game. It's slightly stronger, much bulkier, learns Acrobatics, and is a much better Pokemon before reaching its final stage than Talonflame. Any argument that I've heard so far justifying Talonflame's exclusion has been unconvincing.

[Ultra]

People too often think that OU on competitive scene = "2 broken fer game". Though true in a fair amount of cases, this is not one of them.

I think Talonflame line should be available, but at the very earliest Post-Noel

Edited August 13, 2014 by Ultra

[dondon151]

In the specific case of Talonflame, I actually think that earlier is better, because it's just so terrible before L35.

[ShatteredSkys]

And it exists because I was cautioned against debating about it in the location guide thread, so here's a better place.

Context:

I'm not sure how seriously you took my comment about Fletchling being C tier in Smogon's XY in-game tier list. This means that it's pretty bad. If you take a look at the line's level-up movepool, Fletchling is complete garbage until it evolves into Talonflame and learns one of its STABs by Heart Scale (probably Flare Blitz, because Acrobatics is better than Brave Bird in-game anyway). It's actually worse than Pidove prior to L35.

I will debunk this point by point. Plenty of Pokemon in the current release have good dual STABs. Off the top of my head, Houndoom, Swampert, Gardevoir, Camerupt, Crawdaunt, Leavanny, Scrafty, Sigilyph. And that's not exhaustive. Talonflame doesn't have a high atk stat and at least one of its STABs has recoil, which is a bit more problematic in-game because you have to fight battles in succession.

It's actually really inappropriate to compare Talonflame to Blaziken, because one effortlessly sweeps entire teams while the other doesn't. Even the comparison to Infernape is a huge stretch, because Infernape is much stronger than Talonflame and has a better STAB combination. Heracross is not a good Pokemon as of the current release because its availability is abysmal.

Roost shouldn't factor into in-game tiering at all; all recovery moves are rendered pointless by ice creams. There's really no reason to run Roost on Talonflame in-game unless you're fond of stalling.

This response is mostly incomprehensible, and some of it I addressed pre-emptively. Gale Wings hardly matters on Talonflame in-game because there are very few opponent Pokemon that it doesn't outspeed already. The few Pokemon that it does get the jump on with Gale Wings cannot be sufficient to render it broken. The conclusion that "everyone would use Talonflame" is unfounded because there's no evidence that it's a broken Pokemon, or even a really good one.

The closest point of comparison for Talonflame is Crobat. Crobat is actually in the game. It's slightly stronger, much bulkier, learns Acrobatics, and is a much better Pokemon before reaching its final stage than Talonflame. Any argument that I've heard so far justifying Talonflame's exclusion has been unconvincing.

I'm sorry I did not make my response very clear, it was my mistake to straight up call talonflame a broken pokemon (posted this at like 1:00 in the morning) depending on how and when it is implemented it can perfectly fine. But you have to remember that Ame tends to wait for suitable moment to put pokemon in the game, this was how it was with medicham it could've been put in earlier but wasn't because Ame wanted to wait for an area that made sense to put it in, sometimes I feel like we take this game too seriously. Oh and the comparison with crobat really isn't fair there was a reason why it was removed from the underground railnet, it was once one of the pokemon that everybody used along with gardevoir, magnezone, and scrafty like literally nearly everybody had one.

oh and just out of curiosity why do you want talonflame so much ingame to start a thread about it?

[Ultra]

In the specific case of Talonflame, I actually think that earlier is better, because it's just so terrible before L35.

Talonflame can get Brave Bird and Flare Blitz via Heart Scale immediately upon evolution, which is very strong at that point in the game. So I'd say just introduce fletchling/fletchinder later on at high lv

[Sutoratosu]

Just intro the damn bird at a point later on in the game when it wouldn't give as big an advantage to the player and stop wasting time making arguments for/against it...

after all, Ame has said multiple times that she intends to make it so that ALL Pokemon will eventually be obtainable in the game.

It's really that simple... so just be patient, why don't you...

starting an entire thread just to continue to debate this pointless mess...you must be cray-cray.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Stratos

[dondon151]

oh and just out of curiosity why do you want talonflame so much ingame to start a thread about it?

I don't. I responded to a post that wrote off Talonflame as broken with the counterclaim that it's rather mediocre.

It's really that simple... so just be patient, why don't you...

starting an entire thread just to continue to debate this pointless mess...you must be cray-cray.

I have no personal stake in Talonflame's availability, I'm just questioning the rhetoric that goes into these sorts of categorizations.

Edited August 14, 2014 by dondon151

[Sheep]

I'm not sure how seriously you took my comment about Fletchling being C tier in Smogon's XY in-game tier list.

Honestly I didn't take it particularly seriously at all. Firstly because I don't care about tier lists derived from anything other than usage statistics as they are subjective and opinionated. Secondly because the position of the move relearner and the nature of the challenges you have to deal with in XY are different to the situation in Reborn. This changes the context and therefore a tier list designed for XY has limited application here.

I will debunk this point by point. Plenty of Pokemon in the current release have good dual STABs. Off the top of my head, Houndoom, Swampert, Gardevoir, Camerupt, Crawdaunt, Leavanny, Scrafty, Sigilyph. And that's not exhaustive. Talonflame doesn't have a high atk stat and at least one of its STABs has recoil, which is a bit more problematic in-game because you have to fight battles in succession.

I said as good not just good. You're right, plenty of pokemon have good dual stabs available by level up. The only one's I could think of with dual 120's though? Blaziken, Infernape, and Heracross.

Heracross is not a good Pokemon as of the current release because its availability is abysmal.

Heracross is not a good Pokemon

not a good Pokemon

No.

You did not just say that.

The positioning of Heracross is of minor consideration when considering it's worth. Get that thing Megahorn, Close Combat and Moxie and it'll make a huge impact on every single gym after you get it. For me it swept Luna's entire team, it swept half of Samson's team and it made a huge hole in Radomus' team. It is literally vying with Escavalier for the position of the best obtainable late game pokemon period for me right now. Oh and guess what? There's a whole ton of content still to come. You know what Heracross will be busy doing in that content? That's right, the answer's wrecking face.

Roost shouldn't factor into in-game tiering at all; all recovery moves are rendered pointless by ice creams. There's really no reason to run Roost on Talonflame in-game unless you're fond of stalling.

Or if you're like me and don't use any in game healing items because they make the game too easy.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Sheep

[Wolfox]

I do agree on the fact that Talonflame should be added more so for the fact that I never used it and wanna find my style with it, though this is a useless topic, if Ame wants Talonflame, she'll add it if she doesn't want it, thet fuck Talonflame and keep hoping for other good pokemon like Mylotic

Edited August 14, 2014 by TheRoaringRight

[Amethyst]

Even aside from in-game strength, competitively strong Pokemon are often more desired by a number of players than many other Pokemon. Even if I put Talonflame into the very last episode, there are probably still a number of people who would be interested in picking it up. Contrast this to something like the recently added Braviary. No one is going to pick up a Braviary that late into the game-- and in fact, they barely will at this stage. If I have a choice between which birds I'm going to put early vs late, I'm not going to so blatantly stack the preference in favor of the already-popular one.

[dondon151]

Honestly I didn't take it particularly seriously at all. Firstly because I don't care about tier lists derived from anything other than usage statistics as they are subjective and opinionated. Secondly because the position of the move relearner and the nature of the challenges you have to deal with in XY are different to the situation in Reborn. This changes the context and therefore a tier list designed for XY has limited application here.

Tier lists derived from usage statistics are also subjective. By definition, usage statistics are subject to the personal tastes of the users. A simple thought experiment should demonstrate this: suppose that Froakie is the most used starter Pokemon in Reborn (because players think Protean is a really cool ability). It would still not make sense for Froakie to be tiered above Torchic, because Torchic is actually a better Pokemon, even if its usage is lower.

A similar conclusion can be made from competitive usage stats. OU Pokemon that are suspect tested and banned to Ubers don't necessarily have the highest usage stats, and the ones with the highest usage stats aren't necessarily banned. One possible explanation is that players aren't rational and don't automatically gravitate towards the best options because there's a cultural element to avoid using broken stuff, but that doesn't make the broken stuff any less broken.

Now, bad Pokemon tend to be about as bad no matter what context you put them in. Talonflame is clearly ranked low in the XY in-game tier list because of the poor performance of its lower evolutionary stages. This has not changed in Reborn. It's slightly better after reaching its final stage in Reborn because it can learn Flare Blitz, but I already provided a thoroughly reasoned argument for why this isn't such a big factor.

I said as good not just good. You're right, plenty of pokemon have good dual stabs available by level up. The only one's I could think of with dual 120's though? Blaziken, Infernape, and Heracross.

Looking only at the BP of the attacks is myopic. Talonflame has much lower atk than either starter or Heracross. Crawdaunt, for example, hits about as hard with Crunch as Talonflame does with a 120 BP STAB, and it hits even harder with Crabhammer. Barbaracle hits harder with either Stone Edge or a Tough Claws boosted Razor Shell, and it gets Shell Smash to boot.

I mean, imagine if I reasoned that Togekiss is good because it learns Brave Bird and Double-Edge (well, it's Fairy-type now, so I guess it would have to be Play Rough instead, which isn't 120 BP - but you get the point). 120 BP STABs aren't intrinsically useful; they have to be backed up by big offensive stats to really roll over the game.

No.

You did not just say that.

The positioning of Heracross is of minor consideration when considering it's worth. Get that thing Megahorn, Close Combat and Moxie and it'll make a huge impact on every single gym after you get it. For me it swept Luna's entire team, it swept half of Samson's team and it made a huge hole in Radomus' team. It is literally vying with Escavalier for the position of the best obtainable late game pokemon period for me right now. Oh and guess what? There's a whole ton of content still to come. You know what Heracross will be busy doing in that content? That's right, the answer's wrecking face.

Oh, but I did say that.

I'll give you a brief history of Pokemon in-game tiering. The Pokemon in-game tiering movement started with several users who were involved with Fire Emblem in-game tiering, which had been going on for years. The metrics adopted for Pokemon were more relaxed versions of the metrics used for Fire Emblem, but of these metrics, availability was one of the important ones. Pokemon that were fundamentally good but who weren't available for significant portions of the game could not be ranked higher than Pokemon that were a bit worse, but were available for longer.

The concept is rather simple to demonstrate, and I'll do it with Heracross. Heracross is currently available for only 3 late-game gyms, which means that he isn't contributing to the team for the first 7 gyms. Obviously, Heracross is much worse than Blaziken, who has been amazing for all 10 gyms. What about Charizard? Charizard has been good for some gyms but not others, but it's been in many more important fights over the course of the game than Heracross has. How could one rationalize tiering Heracross over Charizard?

A more interesting comparison can be made between Heracross and Kricketune. Pokemon that peak early and fall off late are generally looked upon unfavorably by the community, whereas Pokemon that peak late but don't exist early are widely praised. By the way, this was true in the Fire Emblem community as well, until some intelligent users reasoned out of this way of thinking. If Kricketune is great for the first 3 badges (well, it isn't that great after ZEL and Taka, but it's a reasonable approximation) and Heracross is good for the last 3 badges, how could one justify the claim that Heracross is better than Kricketune?

(By the way, I really am saying that as of episode 12, Kricketune is a better Pokemon than Heracross. Just to be clear.)

Another essential component to consider is what I'm going to refer to as recruitment cost. This is a tricky area to consider, because all Pokemon other than starters require some amount time and effort to procure. At minimum, we expect to have to talk to an NPC, or to walk in the grass and find the Pokemon. In other cases, some Pokemon require lengthy sidequests, breeding for moves, and/or a significant amount of training to become usable. Heracross requires a lengthy sidequest to obtain, and that should be a mark against it.

Or if you're like me and don't use any in game healing items because they make the game too easy.

Okay, but you're going to have trouble making a convincing argument that the game should be tailored to scrubs.

Even aside from in-game strength, competitively strong Pokemon are often more desired by a number of players than many other Pokemon. Even if I put Talonflame into the very last episode, there are probably still a number of people who would be interested in picking it up. Contrast this to something like the recently added Braviary. No one is going to pick up a Braviary that late into the game-- and in fact, they barely will at this stage. If I have a choice between which birds I'm going to put early vs late, I'm not going to so blatantly stack the preference in favor of the already-popular one.

I think a big reason is that Fire/Flying is more exotic than Normal/Flying. But if you concede that no one is going to use Braviary anyway, then the consequence of delaying Talonflame is that more players are denied their fun.

Edited August 14, 2014 by dondon151

[Amethyst]

That was just an example, and the imperfection of one instance is insufficient warrant to create what I perceive would be a second flaw. In this case, I compare Talonflame to all other flying or fire types.

[Sheep]

Tier lists derived from usage statistics are also subjective. By definition, usage statistics are subject to the personal tastes of the users. A simple thought experiment should demonstrate this: suppose that Froakie is the most used starter Pokemon in Reborn (because players think Protean is a really cool ability). It would still not make sense for Froakie to be tiered above Torchic, because Torchic is actually a better Pokemon, even if its usage is lower.

There is certainly an element of this, but you can't deny that there are also plenty of people out there (especially on the competitive scene) who will simply use what is best for the role they need.

Looking only at the BP of the attacks is myopic. Talonflame has much lower atk than either starter or Heracross. Crawdaunt, for example, hits about as hard with Crunch as Talonflame does with a 120 BP STAB, and it hits even harder with Crabhammer. Barbaracle hits harder with either Stone Edge or a Tough Claws boosted Razor Shell, and it gets Shell Smash to boot.

I mean, imagine if I reasoned that Togekiss is good because it learns Brave Bird and Double-Edge (well, it's Fairy-type now, so I guess it would have to be Play Rough instead, which isn't 120 BP - but you get the point). 120 BP STABs aren't intrinsically useful; they have to be backed up by big offensive stats to really roll over the game.

Certainly this is the case. However there is an issue with most of the pokemon you've put forward. Barbaracle needs a turn to set up, Crawdaunt isn't fast enough to perform the same role as Talonflame without breeding, Sygilyph runs off psychic and air slash, which would probably come close-ish but is still much slower, Houndoom is appropriate but still a bit slower, Swampert uses muddy water for it's water half which is obviously much weaker, Camerupt is way too slow to perform Talonflame's role, Leavanny's offensive dual stab suffer's from bad typing, Scrafty's too slow, Gardevoir's fine.

Also, with hustle a physical Togekiss is actually fairly viable. Well, before 6th gen that is. Seeing as it's an example though I won't haze you over that.

Oh, but I did say that.

I'll give you a brief history of Pokemon in-game tiering. The Pokemon in-game tiering movement started with several users who were involved with Fire Emblem in-game tiering, which had been going on for years. The metrics adopted for Pokemon were more relaxed versions of the metrics used for Fire Emblem, but of these metrics, availability was one of the important ones. Pokemon that were fundamentally good but who weren't available for significant portions of the game could not be ranked higher than Pokemon that were a bit worse, but were available for longer.

The concept is rather simple to demonstrate, and I'll do it with Heracross. Heracross is currently available for only 3 late-game gyms, which means that he isn't contributing to the team for the first 7 gyms. Obviously, Heracross is much worse than Blaziken, who has been amazing for all 10 gyms. What about Charizard? Charizard has been good for some gyms but not others, but it's been in many more important fights over the course of the game than Heracross has. How could one rationalize tiering Heracross over Charizard?

A more interesting comparison can be made between Heracross and Kricketune. Pokemon that peak early and fall off late are generally looked upon unfavorably by the community, whereas Pokemon that peak late but don't exist early are widely praised. By the way, this was true in the Fire Emblem community as well, until some intelligent users reasoned out of this way of thinking. If Kricketune is great for the first 3 badges (well, it isn't that great after ZEL and Taka, but it's a reasonable approximation) and Heracross is good for the last 3 badges, how could one justify the claim that Heracross is better than Kricketune?

(By the way, I really am saying that as of episode 12, Kricketune is a better Pokemon than Heracross. Just to be clear.)

Another essential component to consider is what I'm going to refer to as recruitment cost. This is a tricky area to consider, because all Pokemon other than starters require some amount time and effort to procure. At minimum, we expect to have to talk to an NPC, or to walk in the grass and find the Pokemon. In other cases, some Pokemon require lengthy sidequests, breeding for moves, and/or a significant amount of training to become usable. Heracross requires a lengthy sidequest to obtain, and that should be a mark against it.

Essentially this can be summarized into "Heracross is bad because the concepts behind in game tier listing tell me I should think it's bad." I've already said that I don't care for tier lists one bit, and I'm not quite sure why you're trying to take this line with me. It isn't going to convince me.

Okay, but you're going to have trouble making a convincing argument that the game should be tailored to scrubs.

Firstly the definition of scrub in this context: An insignificant or contemptible person.

Assuming you're referring to me as a scrub then, honestly I don't know what I did to make you believe I belong in that category. Nor do I think your branding me as such in any manner outside of good fun is appropriate for a respectful environment.

In a more informal manner scrub can be used to imply that someone is lacking in skill. Which is clearly not the case seeing as I limit myself in order to make the game harder, not easier.

Finally, I'm not sure I would have trouble creating an argument that the game should be tailored for scrubs, just in convincing you. But that's just a minor bit of being picky.

[dondon151]

There is certainly an element of this, but you can't deny that there are also plenty of people out there (especially on the competitive scene) who will simply use what is best for the role they need.

Okay, but this is contradictory to the contention that Talonflame usage will spike even though it's not that good. Either most of the players are rational, or most of the players are irrational - you can't have both.

Certainly this is the case. However there is an issue with most of the pokemon you've put forward. Barbaracle needs a turn to set up, Crawdaunt isn't fast enough to perform the same role as Talonflame without breeding, Sygilyph runs off psychic and air slash, which would probably come close-ish but is still much slower, Houndoom is appropriate but still a bit slower, Swampert uses muddy water for it's water half which is obviously much weaker, Camerupt is way too slow to perform Talonflame's role, Leavanny's offensive dual stab suffer's from bad typing, Scrafty's too slow, Gardevoir's fine.

The easy response to most of this is that none of those Pokemon rely on a STAB that inflicts recoil damage, which is actually a significant drawback in an in-game context. Now for Barbaracle in particular, a single Shell Smash allows it to potentially sweep 6-0, whereas Talonflame simply lacks the raw power to do the same.

Essentially this can be summarized into "Heracross is bad because the concepts behind in game tier listing tell me I should think it's bad." I've already said that I don't care for tier lists one bit, and I'm not quite sure why you're trying to take this line with me. It isn't going to convince me.

On the contrary, I don't defer to the concepts behind in-game tier lists - this is because I took part in creating them in the first place! In the case of Fire Emblem, that is. Your deflection is a bit of a trick to avoid engaging in a rational argument. I've laid out why it can be reasoned that Heracross is not a very good Pokemon, so your choice here is either to present a reasoned counter-argument or handwave it and essentially concede the point.

Firstly the definition of scrub in this context: An insignificant or contemptible person.

Assuming you're referring to me as a scrub then, honestly I don't know what I did to make you believe I belong in that category. Nor do I think your branding me as such in any manner outside of good fun is appropriate for a respectful environment.

Sirlin says:

"A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about."

Is the decision to not use recovery items not a self-imposed rule?

Edited August 15, 2014 by dondon151

[Sheep]

Okay, but this is contradictory to the contention that Talonflame usage will spike even though it's not that good. Either most of the players are rational, or most of the players are irrational - you can't have both.

No it isn't contradictory because I never said the word most. I don't know the statistics as to which party is larger, and as far as I know neither do you. Therefore we aren't in a position to say which composes most of the player base.

The easy response to most of this is that none of those Pokemon rely on a STAB that inflicts recoil damage, which is actually a significant drawback in an in-game context. Now for Barbaracle in particular, a single Shell Smash allows it to potentially sweep 6-0, whereas Talonflame simply lacks the raw power to do the same.

I'm of the opinion that a quick trip to the pokecenter isn't necessarily a horrible thing.

As for Barbaracle? I've been of the mindset for a while now that that pokemon in particular is already misplaced so we certainly agree on that.

On the contrary, I don't defer to the concepts behind in-game tier lists - this is because I took part in creating them in the first place! In the case of Fire Emblem, that is. Your deflection is a bit of a trick to avoid engaging in a rational argument. I've laid out why it can be reasoned that Heracross is not a very good Pokemon, so your choice here is either to present a reasoned counter-argument or handwave it and essentially concede the point.

As far as this goes I'm not really concerned with it. If you want "the point" then you can have it. It isn't something I'm out to win anyway. However of course, that doesn't mean you've swayed me in my belief that Heracross is a good pokemon for in game reborn. The fact of the matter is that whatever you say, you won't be able to achieve that goal. Nor does it seem that I will be able to sway you into thinking that it is. My reluctance to enter into a well reasoned argument with you stems from the fact that the argument itself appears pointless.

If you want to count that as a victory then more power to you.

On the note of tier lists though (while I've got your attention) I believe that tier lists are a guiding force at the best of times, and a misguiding force at the worst. They should never present themselves as factual, and therefore shouldn't contribute as proof towards any argument that we might have had.

Sirlin says:

"A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about."

Is the decision to not use recovery items not a self-imposed rule?

It certainly is, and in that case it depends on the definition we use. So long as you meant no offence by what you said, I don't think we have any reason to continue this further.

[dondon151]

I'm of the opinion that a quick trip to the pokecenter isn't necessarily a horrible thing.

It's not just trips to the PC (which in themselves are a bit of a time sink), but also the limits on sweeping imposed by constant recoil damage.

As for Barbaracle? I've been of the mindset for a while now that that pokemon in particular is already misplaced so we certainly agree on that.

I don't think that Barbaracle is overpowered at all. It's a fun Pokemon to use, too.

As far as this goes I'm not really concerned with it. If you want "the point" then you can have it. It isn't something I'm out to win anyway. However of course, that doesn't mean you've swayed me in my belief that Heracross is a good pokemon for in game reborn. The fact of the matter is that whatever you say, you won't be able to achieve that goal. Nor does it seem that I will be able to sway you into thinking that it is. My reluctance to enter into a well reasoned argument with you stems from the fact that the argument itself appears pointless.

My job is not just to convince you, but to convince the general audience as well. I think the argument that I presented is compelling, and I encourage anyone who disagrees to take me up on it.

It certainly is, and in that case it depends on the definition we use. So long as you meant no offence by what you said, I don't think we have any reason to continue this further.

The definition that I intended is exactly the one that I quoted. I didn't mean any offense aside from the innate connotation of the word "scrub," which was the most concise way of communicating that concept.

[Damage]

Am I the only one that thinks Talonflame is whack. Low defenses mean roost really is delaying the very short inevitable and a double weakness to rock seeing as how a rock gym is coming up is pretty bad. Also if it was released early, seeing as how everyone said he isn't too strong that would make it just a pain to train and being released late when atks and sp atk pokemon are stronger means he's going down. Not strong enough to sweep and not bulky enough to last fights. Unless he has some crazy debuffing I personally don't see the point in Moltres' lame cousin.

P.S but that's just me.

[Manveru]

A few facts.

Talonflame is the fastest bird in the game. This makes Gale Wings a very mediocre ability in Reborn, as he will most likely outspeed everything anyway. In competitive battles this ability is good to pretty much guarantee a cleanup of a weakened team, but since AI trainers in Reborn very rarely switch and don't carry choice scarf (and let's hope they don't because player would abuse the hell out of that), their pokes will usually fight at full health anyway (and AI makes some horribad switches sometimes lol).

Talonflame is also very weak offensively. His base attack is lower than Swellow, and if any of you used Swellow you very well know that his damage is very mediocre until you activate Guts. Again, in competitive battles, people solve this by giving Talonflame a Choice Band or Swords Dance, neither of which are available for him at the moment. Without either of these, this pokemon is simply not very good.

The only way to get some value out of Talonflame in-game is to make him a part of hazard-stacking team, as an opponent who switches on 3 layers of spikes and SR might be weakened enough for Talonflame to sweep, however, same can be said about a lot of currently available fast pokes, while some of them can just set up on their own (try out double dance Diggersby. That thing melts faces. In game at least).

In short, the only reason not to add Fletchling would be because it's a popular pokemon, which does not really sound like an argument to be honest.

[Cowtao]

We need to get the idea of what is balanced and what isn't in in-game tier listings. Obviously, there is no standard as everything popular seems to be avoided. Here's the issue at hand.

We need to figure out what is going to be considered powerful and what isn't going to be considered powerful out the gate. Let's use episodes as examples. Prior to episode 10, Starly was made available. This was changed later on as Starly is no longer available. Now, if we want to introduce Starly again, it would be too late. No band or life orb means Staraptor's power is mitigated by a lot, and Starly's raw power is actually fairly average out the gate compared to other arguably more useful choices such as Conkeldurr, Magnezone, Scrafty, Amoonguss, Arcanine, and Excadrill. Even if we wanted to train Starly at a low level, it would introcude back grinding which arguably kills gameplay quality.

Popularity doesn't always mean amazing. Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, and even Scizor has been pushed back way to long despite all of them being sub-par options, at least now in episode 12. Despite what you see in Competitive battles, all of these pokemon in-game aren't godly. Scizor and Talonflame lack items and their damage output combined with their paper-thin defenses are severely lacking even after a Swords Dance. Slowbro and Ferrothorn lack some of their favorite moves due to breeding and TM purposes, and worse, both of their initial movepools are bordering niche.

There are many more examples I can think of but the point is this. Without a pokemon's favorite item, they become borderline stale compared to what exists already. I respect how balanced you want to keep Reborn Ame, but if you goal is to give a riveting and challenging league, popularity cannot obscure balance. Even if a popular pokemon does get released in later episodes, you now have people grinding to better their team; and that is never fun.

[dondon151]

Scyther/Scizor is really good in-game because of Technician, but you're otherwise correct about Ferrothorn and Slowbro. Both of the above users are mostly spot-on about Pokemon strength in-game.

Edited August 22, 2014 by dondon151

[Saber12]

Note to self; don't dis heracross when Sheep's around.

I think this is a really useful discussion for helping with placing pokemon in Reborn. There are a lot of pokemon and I wouldn't expect every pokemon to be placed in the right location for the first time.(if we're talking about just game balance by itself). I haven't done my research this time on flechling/talonflame and won't since dondon's presented some of it's movepool through level up .

If its too late to pick one up now to train(which it is for me especially at a low level), where could it possibly be appropriate?

-Before said Gym

I'll take a wild guess and say before Flo. True it comes in handy but is incapable of sweeping her whole team at that point. Corey would cause it a lot of trouble. Shelly may get steamrolled provided that yanmega is taken out in one blow. Kiki would probably be capable of taking it out at some point with machamp. From Aya on-wards I'm guessing it would perform a decent team role but it wouldn't be able to take on pretty much anything else toe to toe.

That's my suggestion based on the little information I have.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Saber12

[Paperblade]

The argument that something is too good to make available to the player always struck me as silly because 2 minutes into the game I can get a Speed Boost Torchic, then a minute later walk outside and get a Moody Bidoof.