Voting: Wifi Clause on the Ladder, yay or nay?

[Neo]

I disagree. AO have shown enough dedication to their wifi that I'm pretty sure they'd play it amongst themselves.

Yeah, because we had them keep Clear Skies alive last gen.

No, that's fucking silly.

We've got an opportunity to NOT repeat the mistakes of last gen, so I say we take the chance and jump forward.(Despite being one of the biggest people against it, I can soundly say that the weather ban should've made its way to OU)

The ONLY arguments for wifi thus far have been "I don't like it" or "I don't like AO". It's clear that Wifi clause is the standard in the Pokemon world, a standard that transcends tier differences, so it makes perfect sense for Reborn to adopt this standard.

[Moony]

I completely agree with Neo in the fact that Wifi should be the standard. New people have actually left Reborn just because Wifi Clause wasn't the default on the ladder.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Hmm, I think I was a bit too hasty, going to withdraw my vote for now, want to see how this further plays out, and gather info. (I highly doubt my opinion will change, but I never know.)

[Swimming95]

The way this would work in terms of coding:

There would have to be TWO SEPARATE SETS of tiers. Whichever becomes "default" for ladders is then the default of the server (think back to that inverted tier bug).

It doesn't matter which is used for tournaments as we don't enforce clauses (and I won't code that / its not easy to code). But it will be annoying for users to have to switch tiers for the tournaments. There is no way to have one tier and only sometimes enforce the clause for the ladder. Let me know if you have any questions about this

[Sonikku]

I vote optional, I believe that when a person challenges you and the wifi clause is not selected it adds a sense of a mystery like a pokemon battle should be.

[Neo]

Okay, since it's clear some of y'all are missing the point.

Unless that button is pressed, you DO NOT have to use Wifi clause. It won't affect anything BUT that one button and the battles that occur when its pressed.

[Sapphire]

I completely agree with Neo in the fact that Wifi should be the standard. New people have actually left Reborn just because Wifi Clause wasn't the default on the ladder.

And other people have specifically come here because of no preview.

Neo-one of the draws of reborn is that they do things differant;y, and don't just blindly follow other communities like sheep. Also, we all know about find battle-that's the problem. It takes no time at all to get a battle using that button, and if you lot get your way, I'm expecting a lot of 'can I haz battle' messages in chat.

[Guest]

Okay, since it's clear some of y'all are missing the point.

Unless that button is pressed, you DO NOT have to use Wifi clause. It won't affect anything BUT that one button and the battles that occur when its pressed.

Goddamn it Erick I tried clicking that button -.-

[Neo]

And other people have specifically come here because of no preview.

Neo-one of the draws of reborn is that they do things differant;y, and don't just blindly follow other communities like sheep. Also, we all know about find battle-that's the problem. It takes no time at all to get a battle using that button, and if you lot get your way, I'm expecting a lot of 'can I haz battle' messages in chat.

Bruh, in the past I was the one of it then THE biggest supporter of "keep reborn different", however being for the sake of different can only get a community. Adopting a standard doesn't make you a sheep, it gives you room to grow by making the community accessible. It opens up our userbase to a wider array of people AND pushes reborn that much closer to being the big community that it wants to be.

[Noivy]

lolwintersamehere

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Im just going to leave 2 cents here in as little dorky fashion as possible because I don't really ladder otherwise. I saw Ikaru post the very reason why I'm behind this kind of. To me, there's three different phases to pokemon matches (note that I did not say battle).

That whole thing about prediction lands on the number one phase. Every time I start a wifi battle on X/Y, both me and my opponent see each others team. A typical game on Singles Battle Spot is 3v3 Species, Item, clause, because that's as far as nintendo's willing to go in terms of keeping it fair. Soo each player see's all six of what people might use... so they need to really guess. Other servers seem to work the same way, only except it's 6v6 rather than 3v3 in singles, which is ok

The second phase of the match is the first, oooh say three turns. Wifi Clause (and official xy wifi battles) allow you to switch your lead right? Well, what if something happens, you gotta change and flex your strategy right? The same goes even without wifi clause, only except you have no real way of knowing what your opponent might use, and if either side has a definite advantage, whats the fun of that? Wifi Clause would allow people to flex and adapt in these first few turns.

The Third phase of a match is the rest of the battle and I can't really describe that without being a huge dork in my words, other people might be able to describe it. tldr the first few turns make stuff happen and now there's huge giant setups that are just begging to be started, and taken advantage of.

it's all about prediction, and wifi clause allows for some very fun prediction games. Because if a battle has no surprises, it is not fun. it's a lot like chess, and to quote Radomus "This is not unlike a game of chess, wherein various strategies are tried in various formation."

Look, IM fucking supporting this. And I have been in the past EVEN MORE STUBBORN THAN ERICK on keeping reborn different. You know want to know how that ended up? It ended up in me developing a metaphorical bloodclot that only made me angrier, and angrier. It's just better to accept change and go with the flow.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Noivy

[Ruby Riding Hood]

Keeping it short and sweet. I think Wifi is stupid, so...

OFF WITH THIS DREAD!

[Neo]

Golly, thanks for the contribution. The discussion is finally settled, wow, such a decisive final word.

[Kamina]

I am really confused as to the reason for keeping no team preview as the default in ladder. It is apparent that team preview makes the game more skill based as shown in moony's post about ditto. If people wanted a more casual experience they could just battle friends without team preview and if they had too much trouble doing that they could request a no team preview tour. The mechanics of a simulator should be mirrored to the actual game at lest for competitive play. Your post about deo-d/s and keldeo also being banned due to fanbase are irrelevant to this discussion because in x/y you can use whatever pokemon you please. We have tiers depending on how well Pokemon preform in a certain meta and pokemon focuses more on doubles anyways. Also, most people flock to reborn because of the reborn game. I remember when shofu started doing a walkthrough of the reborn game and the amount of people in the forums and the server shot up significantly. Reborn is what it is not because of its tiering and I know for a fact that the our tiering system has deterred more outsiders from the server than attracted.

[Lobos]

This section is a roughed up summary of what is going on in this thread:

The advent of this thread was to see if the “Wi-Fi Clause” should be enabled. I have read every post/ response, which includes the manner, and reasons why it should/ shouldn’t exist meticulously. I can come to the direct conclusion that the only real response that has successfully refuted anything about “Wi-Fi Clause” not being the default is Secundum. Take it however you will, most if not a majority of your responses have ties relating to “an AO related thread”, and you speak as if you represent the majority of Reborn. I haven’t seen a single remark without you tying this thread directly to AO. Essentially, there seems to be a bandwagon of sorts appearing with people who side with the banishment of this clause without refuting with purpose. This one detail makes a crucial for understanding why it should be banned. As such it leads to this final conclusion, the “bandwagon” have no implications made as to why it should be banned, but instead choose due to their “knowledge,” (which is very questionable with three pages worth of utter and complete nonsense) of the competitive scene; which in simpler words, are nonexistent. Why? All I’ve seen so far as acknowledgeable reasoning, as if, were “…Because I like it,” “…It’s and AO thread don’t listen to them,” and “…I’m able to ‘predict’ what my opponent can choose”. A personal comment, I’m not telling who said that, even if multiple people did say it, but how can you predict something that you have never witnessed? Answer that question correctly, go ahead try.

Distinctive to the bandwagon, we can exclusively see well thought out ideas and reason that people such as “moony” and “Neo” know exactly what they are talking about. They have conclusive made that the “Wi-Fi Clause” should be default due to it being the default by Game Freak, and many other respectable third party individual sister servers. Not only does it allow for the player to make predictions, but it also opens up opportunities for enjoyment.

My Personal Opinion: (This is exclusively me talking and expressing my opinion and has nothing to do with what I have already written. Can’t handle it? Tough shit.)

Hello I’m Lobos! I’m not AO, but an individual who has experience with Pokémon and enjoys the competitive scene that there is. As of recently I can clearly see that most of the opinions make no sense. How can you come the conclusion that you get the “thrill” and “excitement” of being able to make predictions based off of Pokémon you clearly haven’t seen. Not only is this stupid but childish. Your arguments are so great I’m going to stop talking about them. I’m here to express honest that it should be the default. As several “smart” people who so happen to be in AO, and also those individuals who aren’t related to AO made, making two separate tiers makes as much sense as… I can’t come up with a something to compare it to because it makes no sense. One will obviously get ignored and become like our very own “Clear Skies” tier. Hell I don’t even see people using the fight club tier, maybe there are some but I don’t see them. What I can say is that such notion about a game of luck is flawed in the competitive scene. Pokémon Online was never focused on guesses and what if's; instead it created a player based system which would allow multiple people to experience the thrill and struggle that brought forth the puzzle that is competitive battling. By not enabling the usage of the Wi-Fi-Clause, which the creators of Pokémon so strongly created in Gen 5, you are allowing the players to go in blindly and not experience such Euphoria of winning fairly. I ask not much but of one thing, implement one of the most basic tools that has been bestowed upon us yet has been denied.

Side Note: Yes I know I quoted myself from the first thread, but my opinion stands. Good luck, and after this post maybe you’ll give us real responses as to why you should have it enabled. I haven’t voted because this thread and half of the responses are like cancer to my knowledge as an experience battler. Good Day!

[Shamitako]

So, I don't really battle outside the actual games much anymore, but I figured I'd drop my opinion here

I happen to dislike team preview because it makes it a lot harder to run Pokemon with only one really usable set. Further, I usually run a dedicated lead, and team preview really kills that (In fact I specifically always carry two leads in Y now to counter this problem) Aside from those two points, I have no problem with it. It doesn't make either of those unusable, just a lot harder to use. And who says hard is bad? I'd say that it should at least be the default option, but also that there should be an option. With and without preview are almost two entirely seperate metas

Also, just to show how little I know, what's AO?

Edited August 21, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Diana]

(alpha omega, a relatively high-standing clan on PO as a whole filled with people that know how to battle)

I personally cast my vote for having it be the default tier, if only for the fact that if not, it's going to end up like Clear Skies was- unused. While you could argue that "people who want the tier can use it to show their dedication", you need to remember that not everyone on the server knows what tiers are, and the majority are going to ladder on the default tier, whichever it is. It's already standard elsewhere, even in the games themselves, so why shouldn't we?

tl;dr Wifi OU for standard tier, most points I'd like to make are explained in better detail by Lobos.

[FeatherDuster]

I feel like it is a random battle instead of a real tier battle without Wifi Clause. Team previews allow for more skill during the battle and less guessing about the opponents team.

[Magus]

Well I guess I should give my 2 cents in on this. The singles meta game is all about predicting switches, and trying to get the match up needed to make plays, but when you remove that, it makes is more about a game of chance. You can't read your opponent at all because you don't what they have. Team preview is needed, besides, we are on gen 6 and this was implemented back in gen 5. Why is Reborn so far behind compared to other servers, and dare I say Shodown. The entire reason why I don't ladder on Reborn is because there is no team preview. So please implement it, these are competitive battles, testing your knowledge of the meta.

[Sapphire]

Why is Reborn so far behind compared to other servers, and dare I say Shodown.

Because a lot of people come to Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

[Jelly]

Because a lot of people come to Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

Conversely, a lot of people leave Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

[Dark Desire]

I don't see people swarming to our server just because we still use no preview, so I wouldn't say we gain more then we lose by it

[Neo]

Because a lot of people come to Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

You =/= a lot of people.

What really end up happening is that people get here, then they like to latch onto 'muh rebarn culture' (Again, something I'm guilty of in the past), and oppose any sort of change. Progress, in the right direction mind you, is good. This is a change that we should welcome in order to foster the growth of Reborn.

[Diana]

I'm completely with Erick and Lobos and numerous other people for the same goal here; this is healthy, good progress, and something that needs to be done.

Team Preview is a healther gameplay style overall, allowing for more intensive and SOLID prediciton (i.e "they'll switch to this" instead of "they could be running any one of these things") and it's not a change that's going to hurt anyone.

[Sapphire]

You =/= a lot of people.

What really end up happening is that people get here, then they like to latch onto 'muh rebarn culture' (Again, something I'm guilty of in the past), and oppose any sort of change. Progress, in the right direction mind you, is good. This is a change that we should welcome in order to foster the growth of Reborn.

You need to stop assuming I'm talking about myself when I refer to lots of people. I counted 4 different people on server saying they came to reborn because of no preview.

And as for everyone making the arguments for team preview-they're good arguments, and we already know them. It doesn't mean that that's what everyone wants.

[Neo]

4 people cannot be used for any major measure when the server has 60+ people on average.

If the person doesn't want team preview, they don't have to ladder on the default ladder. The issue here is that the vast majority of people expect certain things from any ladder worth its salt, and one of them is Wifi clause.