Voting: Wifi Clause on the Ladder, yay or nay?

[Chevaleresse]

I'm going to say a few things here, and I don't care if you think one contradicts the others.

One. Rejecting an idea because of who proposes it is stupid. Formally stupid, in fact; that's tantamount to what you call an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy, which is a fancy way of saying it's a really poor and unethical way to argue, which is a polite way of calling people who use it stupid.

Two. Individualism is great, yeah, I get it. I'm an individualist and a nonconformist. However, being different for the sake of being different is also stupid. The whole point of individualism, even when applied to a community, is to ensure that one can be healthy by being oneself, not to show how fancy and special you are.

Three. Tossing insults around instead of actual discussion as I've seen happen in every goddamn thread about competitive battling on this forum is also stupid. Responding to "I think wifi clause is good" with "lol that argument sucks so fuck you" is toxic, and I know toxic. This also applies to suggestions.

tl;dr stop bitching at each other and have a civil discussion so I don't have to start cursing on this forum any more

With that out of the way, I support the idea of making wifi clause the default, and having a separate tier for no preview. People who are that bent about wifi clause can use the no-preview tier. Team preview is more competitive in my humble opinion due to the elimination of gimmicks and it tests each player more. Limiting the information available to the player when they have no way to find said information before it sweeps half of their team a la Genesect makes for a very frustrating and very uncompetitive experience. Without preview, you could feasibly pull off well-known gimmicks like FEAR Rattata and Aron, and it makes it basically impossible to run more niche pokes such as Shedinja because you can't really determine if there's a threat to them without burning through valuable HP and turns scouting them. This isn't a RTS where scouting is simple and easy; every single member of your team needs to do something important, and each is invaluable.

[The Fush]

tl;dr stop bitching at each other and have a civil discussion so I don't have to start cursing on this forum any more

This discussion has been a bit more tame ever since we stopped name calling groups like AO in the midst of it; that comment was kind of unneeded.

Honestly, the only reason why I'm slightly adamant against the use of Team Preview links to how it affects certain pokemon; there's quite a selection of pokés that only run one or two movesets with little to no variance within them, and with Team Preview they've become predictable before even hitting the field, which can sorely effect their playing power in the battle that follows. This same principle also rather applies to Zoroark, who thrives on the enemy's lack of knowledge to be effective and set up, although he's only just one guy. It sort of links in with what MasterWeavile said. Tldr, Team Preview is a mechanic in itself that can have negative effects on quite a few kinds of pokés, which can affect their usefulness and strength.

That being said, I can understand why people want it implemented; aside from the problems I've presented about it, it's allowed for more prediction and switchup on your team, promoting the more skillful elements of battling, and removes inherent advantages one team might have against another by actually allowing the team against the odds to strategize and have a chance to win; it removes a lot of the luck required in a battle, luck being one of the mechanics that most people tend to spite since it doesn't promote a fair game.

That, and I can see why it'd be pointless to have both availible if one's never going to be used; a small minority may have a preference for the more unused side but that's not going to help it see much use regardless.

[Dominator]

The Fact that 66 people have cast in their votes means that 3/4-4/4 the population of reborn have their answer locked. All we can do right now is let the Poll decide. Unless someone will make a MLKJ speech and everyone is moved, but not likely

[Lobos]

lol I'm reading these post and all I see is a continuation of the blame game and no progress.

You need to stop assuming I'm talking about myself when I refer to lots of people. I counted 4 different people on server saying they came to reborn because of no preview.

And as for everyone making the arguments for team preview-they're good arguments, and we already know them. It doesn't mean that that's what everyone wants.

Neo just said that you alone doesn't justify the 60+ on the server, and I agree. Your response alone amounts the opinions that are only on this thread. Everyone else who hasn't commented is nonexistent due to their lack in participation for a clause that will effect the Reborn Community.

This discussion has been a bit more tame ever since we stopped name calling groups like AO in the midst of it; that comment was kind of unneeded.

Honestly, the only reason why I'm slightly adamant against the use of Team Preview links to how it affects certain pokemon; there's quite a selection of pokés that only run one or two movesets with little to no variance within them, and with Team Preview they've become predictable before even hitting the field, which can sorely effect their playing power in the battle that follows. This same principle also rather applies to Zoroark, who thrives on the enemy's lack of knowledge to be effective and set up, although he's only just one guy. It sort of links in with what MasterWeavile said. Tldr, Team Preview is a mechanic in itself that can have negative effects on quite a few kinds of pokés, which can affect their usefulness and strength.

That being said, I can understand why people want it implemented; aside from the problems I've presented about it, it's allowed for more prediction and switchup on your team, promoting the more skillful elements of battling, and removes inherent advantages one team might have against another by actually allowing the team against the odds to strategize and have a chance to win; it removes a lot of the luck required in a battle, luck being one of the mechanics that most people tend to spite since it doesn't promote a fair game.

That, and I can see why it'd be pointless to have both availible if one's never going to be used; a small minority may have a preference for the more unused side but that's not going to help it see much use regardless.

As you stated I'm glad that I can count on your post to know that one person has moved on from the overused and dull "AO related thread."

Your first paragraph captured my attention because what you say hold it's truth. But at the very same time your concept of Wi-Fi Clause is flawed. You agreed with MasterWeavile but her comment almost makes no sense. I'll briefly put it at this. Wi-Fi Clause is meant to allow you to correctly position yourself through the thorough analysis of your opponents team. If you make a mistake then it's on behalf of yourself for making it. Now the part of of Pokemon only carrying one usable set is true, why? The reason why is due to the meta-game. The meta-game changes every time. I can soundly conclude that there are a bunch of people who vote for the te banishment of Wi-Fi clause because they don't want to conform to it. And I ask one simple question, why even bother with trying to refute the Wi-Fi Clause if it helps you instead of hinders you? All I can conclude from all of this is the banishment of a useful tool.

[Shamitako]

Honestly, the only reason why I'm slightly adamant against the use of Team Preview links to how it affects certain pokemon; there's quite a selection of pokés that only run one or two movesets with little to no variance within them, and with Team Preview they've become predictable before even hitting the field, which can sorely effect their playing power in the battle that follows. This same principle also rather applies to Zoroark, who thrives on the enemy's lack of knowledge to be effective and set up, although he's only just one guy. It sort of links in with what MasterWeavile said. Tldr, Team Preview is a mechanic in itself that can have negative effects on quite a few kinds of pokés, which can affect their usefulness and strength.

This is exactly what I mean, thank you for saying it a million times better than I could >_< (also, knowing Zoroark is there can mess with people's heads as well, assuming they're not all that good)

I would like to reiterate my statement that I consider with and without to be almost two entirely separate metas. With you have all sorts of lead predictions and generally have to run several Pokemon capabubble of leading/anti-leading to avoid losing momentum right off the bat. You also have the problem of things like Zoroark suddenly becoming a lot harder to use effectively, and a smart opponent can easily nullify their usefulness. This means that things like Ferrothorn and Talonflame will thrive, but other Pokemon like M-Banette and Zoroark who rely on surprise or a certain trick will struggle to make a dent (not focusing on any one tier here, just in general)

IMO they have two very different playstyles

Edited August 22, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

"Pokemon like M-Banette and Zoroark who rely on surprise or a certain trick will struggle to make a dent (not focusing on any one tier here, just in general)"

Pokemon such as M-Banette and Zoroark are not OU pokemon. You can not justify your argument saying pokemon suddenly become "unviable" when they are not fit for the environment of an OU metagame in the first place. They have no place in OU unless you team build specifically to make it work. Regardless this not a legitimate arguement.

These pokemon are perfectly fine in their own tier where they do not need a "surprise" or a "trick" in the form of no-preview in order to work.

There are many "arguments" here stating that wifi-clause will make certain pokemon unviable in OU. This is useless, they do not have the stats, moveset, typing or niche in the OU metagame to work regardless of wifi-clause or no. They belong in a tier in which they can operate in the environment, and "No preview" is not used for the reason to make these weak-tier pokemon legit in a tier such as OU.

,,

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rupe

[Lobos]

This is exactly what I mean, thank you for saying it a million times better than I could >_< (also, knowing Zoroark is there can mess with people's heads as well, assuming they're not all that good)

I would like to reiterate my statement that I consider with and without to be almost two entirely separate metas. With you have all sorts of lead predictions and generally have to run several Pokemon capabubble of leading/anti-leading to avoid losing momentum right off the bat. You also have the problem of things like Zoroark suddenly becoming a lot harder to use effectively, and a smart opponent can easily nullify their usefulness. This means that things like Ferrothorn and Talonflame will thrive, but other Pokemon like M-Banette and Zoroark who rely on surprise or a certain trick will struggle to make a dent (not focusing on any one tier here, just in general)

IMO they have two very different playstyles

You do notice that none of the Pokemon excluding Ferrothorn or Talonflame are in OU? In OU you must use Pokemon that thrive in it. You usage of M-Banette and Zoroark, are just examples of you being creative. Such creativity requires knowledge of the meta-game which conclusively sounds like you don't.

tl;dr: Stick with the meta-game and stop whining. It was created for a purpose because if it doesn't succeed in OU your most likely prone to lose due to stronger Pokemon. The perfect example of how the meta-game changed from Gen 5 to Gen 6 is Bisharp. I love this Pokemon, as a matter of fact it's one of my favorite. But even I knew that if I used it, it had to be supported by a team composition that suited it. Now in Gen 6 it can stand on it's own including with the buff to Knock Off.

[Shamitako]

Actually, NVM, screw that argument. I could defend it for hours, but that would just make it look like I'm anti-team preview without accomplishing anything more. It's pointless to argue with someone I don't even really disagree with

I think that with and without team preview are very different. Different enough to warrant the option to play both, whatever form that may take. You will not sway me on this point. Further, I think that team preview has more upsides than downsides for competitive battling. And thus, it should be the default. This doesn't mean you can outright deny the downsides either, because they are there

That's my opinion, and as much as I'd love to be swayed, there's two steel walls charging at each other and I no longer find it prudent to stand in between them *Poof*

P.S. Since I'm shore someone's thinking it: Don't you dare insult me by saying that I'm just quitting because my argument doesn't hold water

[Sapphire]

Your first paragraph captured my attention because what you say hold it's truth. But at the very same time your concept of Wi-Fi Clause is flawed. You agreed with MasterWeavile but her comment almost makes no sense. I'll briefly put it at this. Wi-Fi Clause is meant to allow you to correctly position yourself through the thorough analysis of your opponents team. If you make a mistake then it's on behalf of yourself for making it. Now the part of of Pokemon only carrying one usable set is true, why? The reason why is due to the meta-game. The meta-game changes every time. I can soundly conclude that there are a bunch of people who vote for the te banishment of Wi-Fi clause because they don't want to conform to it. And I ask one simple question, why even bother with trying to refute the Wi-Fi Clause if it helps you instead of hinders you? All I can conclude from all of this is the banishment of a useful tool.

You don't seem to understand that some people simply don't like wifi, no matter what changes it may/may not bring. If they don't like it, they don't like it.

Rupe-wifi clause would affect lower tiers as well.

[Lobos]

Actually, NVM, screw that argument. I could defend it for hours, but that would just make it look like I'm anti-team preview without accomplishing anything more. It's pointless to argue with someone I don't even really disagree with

I think that with and without team preview are very different. Different enough to warrant the option to play both, whatever form that may take. You will not sway me on this point. Further, I think that team preview has more upsides than downsides for competitive battling. And thus, it should be the default. This doesn't mean you can outright deny the downsides either, because they are there

That's my opinion, and as much as I'd love to be swayed, there's two steel walls charging at each other and I no longer find it prudent to stand in between them *Poof*

P.S. Since I'm shore someone's thinking it: Don't you dare insult me by saying that I'm just quitting because my argument doesn't hold water

I can never disregard or disrespect some one's very own opinion. Every one is entitled to one and your no exception ;]. Yes I will admit that it merits it's own problems but positives outweigh the cons. I'm actually very glad that you feel so strongly about your opinion and your not swayed, that shows character and ultimately leads to progress.

You don't seem to understand that some people simply don't like wifi, no matter what changes it may/may not bring. If they don't like it, they don't like it.

Rupe-wifi clause would affect lower tiers as well.

I understand very well what people think. What you don't seem to grasp is the very concept of minority and majority. I have yet to see this understanding from anyone besides a few mention-able people, and that includes you ;]. Furthermore, your reasoning has not surpassed even your most recent posts. I finalize like this, just like you stated if they don't like it, don't play it. The majority, which no one specific person and/or third party group represents, have their own say in matters. The people who have stated why they want it have given really good rebuttals as to why it should sway into their favor. Nonetheless, the poll will ultimately decide what gets done. These posts are meant to express our very own opinions, not as propaganda which seems to be what it happening with those who just state that want it done their way because they said so.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Lobos

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

You don't seem to understand that some people simply don't like wifi, no matter what changes it may/may not bring. If they don't like it, they don't like it.

Rupe-wifi clause would affect lower tiers as well.

Yes, wifi will affect every tier. That doesnt change the fact that certain pokemon struggle to be viable. The point I made was that lower tier pokemon work in their own tier, where their stats and typing are more relevant. Wifi clause does not change the stats of a pokemon.

[Neo]

You don't seem to understand that some people simply don't like wifi, no matter what changes it may/may not bring. If they don't like it, they don't like it.

Rupe-wifi clause would affect lower tiers as well.

Please, for the love the god. Present an argument other than 'I/other people don't like it'

[Lobos]

There's just seems to be a lot of intelligent remark made from the last few pages... God Damn nice job everyone! This thread is going along nicely! I like how everyone is pitching in with their ideas, hopefully we can come to a consensus! ;]

Edited August 22, 2014 by Lobos

[Notus]

Ok, just coming to reiterate my previous statement: I do think of both options as diferent meta games, and each has it's own valour. I like the game of scouting the opposing team, and also think that if we were to completely scratch out No-Preview it would be detrimental to the many people (Yes, many. Just take a look at how tight this voting is) that also like it.

Arguments? Well, it is a personal preference. From my point of view, however, this matter is entirely on personal preferences. As I see both as different play stiles, I must recognize that Wi-Fi is also cool to play in it's own way, and it boils down to what each of us likes more.

So in short: I don't mind if Wi-Fi turns in default, I just ask No-Preview to be kept as a separate tier. By the amount of people that voted to the last option I doubt it will die easily, and just having the possibilty to play it is already better than nothing.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Notus

[Felicity]

One of the reasons for having Wifi is the added chance for predictions and analysing the enemies team. Correct? Someone said that without it battles turns into a game of chance. I'm not gonna go look for that specific quote, but i have to ask what is wrong with a game of chance? I mean, you're already rolling the dice with the find battle button. There's no guarantee you'll find a competent player, and chance, in the form of Hax, is a gameplay element that can make or break a win.

[Neo]

One of the reasons for having Wifi is the added chance for predictions and analysing the enemies team. Correct? Someone said that without it battles turns into a game of chance. I'm not gonna go look for that specific quote, but i have to ask what is wrong with a game of chance? I mean, you're already rolling the dice with the find battle button. There's no guarantee you'll find a competent player, and chance, in the form of Hax, is a gameplay element that can make or break a win.

In the same vein that moody and evasion are banned, Wifi clause should be enabled. It's about minimizing the game of chance and giving both players as close to an even field as possible.

[Lobos]

One of the reasons for having Wifi is the added chance for predictions and analysing the enemies team. Correct? Someone said that without it battles turns into a game of chance. I'm not gonna go look for that specific quote, but i have to ask what is wrong with a game of chance? I mean, you're already rolling the dice with the find battle button. There's no guarantee you'll find a competent player, and chance, in the form of Hax, is a gameplay element that can make or break a win.

In retrospect to what Neo said, the Wi-Fi Clause is meant to further enhance the competitive scene through minimizing the effects of winning through mere luck. You can't compare a, dare I say, "noob" matched-up against an experienced player and decide that they win. That winning is both false and unconventional to the experienced player. Such victory is minimized and battles are more truthful and instead of plastic.

[Notus]

I don't see it as a game of chance at all. The only real luck element is the first match-up, and any competent player will consider this when choosing a lead and have a good answer to that (U-Turn, Magic Guard, Red Card etc...) after all there's no unbeatable lead.

The rest of the game must be played with caution, until you know what your opponent has. If you set up, you have to keep in mind that the other part may have a Ditto or a good counter. This adds importance to the use of lures and various other tactics. Again, if your team has so big a weakness that you can't win if you are not sure the opponent isn't carrying it, than your team surely needs some changes.

I can't say No-Preview is better than Wi-Fi, but both are different and deserve their space

Edited August 22, 2014 by Notus

[The Fush]

"Pokemon like M-Banette and Zoroark who rely on surprise or a certain trick will struggle to make a dent (not focusing on any one tier here, just in general)"

Pokemon such as M-Banette and Zoroark are not OU pokemon. You can not justify your argument saying pokemon suddenly become "unviable" when they are not fit for the environment of an OU metagame in the first place. They have no place in OU unless you team build specifically to make it work. Regardless this not a legitimate arguement.

These pokemon are perfectly fine in their own tier where they do not need a "surprise" or a "trick" in the form of no-preview in order to work.

While I'd like to point out that in no way is this decision focused solely on OU, I want to clear up that I wasn't using Zoroark as an justification so much as just something to mention on the side (hence why I said "but that's just one pokémon"). Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As you stated I'm glad that I can count on your post to know that one person has moved on from the overused and dull "AO related thread."

Your first paragraph captured my attention because what you say hold it's truth. But at the very same time your concept of Wi-Fi Clause is flawed. You agreed with MasterWeavile but her comment almost makes no sense. I'll briefly put it at this. Wi-Fi Clause is meant to allow you to correctly position yourself through the thorough analysis of your opponents team. If you make a mistake then it's on behalf of yourself for making it. Now the part of of Pokemon only carrying one usable set is true, why? The reason why is due to the meta-game. The meta-game changes every time. I can soundly conclude that there are a bunch of people who vote for the te banishment of Wi-Fi clause because they don't want to conform to it. And I ask one simple question, why even bother with trying to refute the Wi-Fi Clause if it helps you instead of hinders you? All I can conclude from all of this is the banishment of a useful tool.

Yeah, while I've had some experience with competitive ladder and wifi clause I've never really delved deep enough to have a clear understanding of it, so thank you for your point of view.

My reasoning is rather short-sighted to me, now that I look at your argument, since prediction and positioning is half of any battle and Wifi Clause assists that, regardless of whether or not a Pokémon has variance in it's moveset and options since just because you see what they're using, doesn't mean you're immediately going to be able to act to defeat it. I still feel it has some impact on these cases but you raise a very valid point.

EDIT: On a side note, since I still feel some people are thinking that this indentation of Team Preview applies universally, I'd like to point out that Wifi Clause is still optional in battle menus and so people can enjoy No-Preview battles without there being an actual No-Preview tier. Someone probably pointed this out earlier, but I feel like some people here still think you can't play No-Preview without there being a tier for it if Team Preview is implemented into ladder, so I just wanted to preach to the choir.

[Diana]

(Yes, if we enable Wifi OU, No-Preview OU would become it's own tier, most likely)

There's a thing between "I don't like it, a few others don't like it" and presenting a real argument as to why it shouldn't be enabled. In the same sense of you thinking that people should use it as a side tier, the majority wants it as a main tier- if you're still so dedicated to No Preview OU, you can use that side tier to prove that people still like it. :]

[Lobos]

I don't see it as a game of chance at all. The only real luck element is the first match-up, and any competent player will consider this when choosing a lead and have a good answer to that (U-Turn, Magic Guard, Red Card etc...) after all there's no unbeatable lead.

The rest of the game must be played with caution, until you know what your opponent has. If you set up, you have to keep in mind that the other part may have a Ditto or a good counter. This adds importance to the use of lures and various other tactics. Again, if your team has so big a weakness that you can't win if you are not sure the opponent isn't carrying it, than it is a bad team.

I can't say No-Preview is better than Wi-Fi, but both are different and deserve their space

If you so happen to go against a team that's not in your favor it doesn't mean it's a bad team, your wrong there. It just means that you may need to tweak you composition around to enable you to learn from your mistakes. As well as your stand on No-Preview and Wi-Fi seems to be what the general consensus is coming to meet at. Same goes for your comment as well Silver.

[Notus]

Yeah, that's actually what I meant Lobos. I worded it poorly, sorry.

Also I agree with Silver, there would be no problem in having Wi-Fi as default (and the same goes for No Preview by the way). I don't think people are asking for not enabling the wi-fi clause, only for both to be able to coexist. I guess it wouldn't be hard to put a tag or a link in the banner telling the newcomers that we have a No-Preview/Wi-Fi tier also, so I really don't think splitting them would be any trouble.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Notus

[Dominator]

Seems right now like a clear win for "yay" WiFi soo when exactly will this Poll close it seems no authority is really monitoring it....

[Diana]

Hi, I've been commenting in this thread a lot. I'm also a mod. I've literally been watching it since the start. :]

This poll has only been open for two days- I'm thinking of keeping it open until the end of the week, or if the votes stop coming before that, we'll close it them and make a decision. It is, of course, not only up to me, so please do not quote me word for word on that.

[Sapphire]

the majority wants it as a main tier

Not counting the people that don't want it at all, it's the majority by two votes, and it was the minority yesterday.

Dominator-please tell me how it's a clear win for wifi? Sure, it's ahead now, but I could've easily said it's a clear win for the other option just yesterday.