Voting: Wifi Clause on the Ladder, yay or nay?

[Neo]

I disagree. AO have shown enough dedication to their wifi that I'm pretty sure they'd play it amongst themselves.

Yeah, because we had them keep Clear Skies alive last gen.

No, that's fucking silly.

We've got an opportunity to NOT repeat the mistakes of last gen, so I say we take the chance and jump forward.(Despite being one of the biggest people against it, I can soundly say that the weather ban should've made its way to OU)

The ONLY arguments for wifi thus far have been "I don't like it" or "I don't like AO". It's clear that Wifi clause is the standard in the Pokemon world, a standard that transcends tier differences, so it makes perfect sense for Reborn to adopt this standard.

[Moony]

I completely agree with Neo in the fact that Wifi should be the standard. New people have actually left Reborn just because Wifi Clause wasn't the default on the ladder.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Hmm, I think I was a bit too hasty, going to withdraw my vote for now, want to see how this further plays out, and gather info. (I highly doubt my opinion will change, but I never know.)

[Swimming95]

The way this would work in terms of coding:

There would have to be TWO SEPARATE SETS of tiers. Whichever becomes "default" for ladders is then the default of the server (think back to that inverted tier bug).

It doesn't matter which is used for tournaments as we don't enforce clauses (and I won't code that / its not easy to code). But it will be annoying for users to have to switch tiers for the tournaments. There is no way to have one tier and only sometimes enforce the clause for the ladder. Let me know if you have any questions about this

[Sonikku]

I vote optional, I believe that when a person challenges you and the wifi clause is not selected it adds a sense of a mystery like a pokemon battle should be.

[Neo]

Okay, since it's clear some of y'all are missing the point.

Unless that button is pressed, you DO NOT have to use Wifi clause. It won't affect anything BUT that one button and the battles that occur when its pressed.

[Sapphire]

I completely agree with Neo in the fact that Wifi should be the standard. New people have actually left Reborn just because Wifi Clause wasn't the default on the ladder.

And other people have specifically come here because of no preview.

Neo-one of the draws of reborn is that they do things differant;y, and don't just blindly follow other communities like sheep. Also, we all know about find battle-that's the problem. It takes no time at all to get a battle using that button, and if you lot get your way, I'm expecting a lot of 'can I haz battle' messages in chat.

[Guest]

Okay, since it's clear some of y'all are missing the point.

Unless that button is pressed, you DO NOT have to use Wifi clause. It won't affect anything BUT that one button and the battles that occur when its pressed.

Goddamn it Erick I tried clicking that button -.-

[Neo]

And other people have specifically come here because of no preview.

Neo-one of the draws of reborn is that they do things differant;y, and don't just blindly follow other communities like sheep. Also, we all know about find battle-that's the problem. It takes no time at all to get a battle using that button, and if you lot get your way, I'm expecting a lot of 'can I haz battle' messages in chat.

Bruh, in the past I was the one of it then THE biggest supporter of "keep reborn different", however being for the sake of different can only get a community. Adopting a standard doesn't make you a sheep, it gives you room to grow by making the community accessible. It opens up our userbase to a wider array of people AND pushes reborn that much closer to being the big community that it wants to be.

[Noivy]

lolwintersamehere

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Im just going to leave 2 cents here in as little dorky fashion as possible because I don't really ladder otherwise. I saw Ikaru post the very reason why I'm behind this kind of. To me, there's three different phases to pokemon matches (note that I did not say battle).

That whole thing about prediction lands on the number one phase. Every time I start a wifi battle on X/Y, both me and my opponent see each others team. A typical game on Singles Battle Spot is 3v3 Species, Item, clause, because that's as far as nintendo's willing to go in terms of keeping it fair. Soo each player see's all six of what people might use... so they need to really guess. Other servers seem to work the same way, only except it's 6v6 rather than 3v3 in singles, which is ok

The second phase of the match is the first, oooh say three turns. Wifi Clause (and official xy wifi battles) allow you to switch your lead right? Well, what if something happens, you gotta change and flex your strategy right? The same goes even without wifi clause, only except you have no real way of knowing what your opponent might use, and if either side has a definite advantage, whats the fun of that? Wifi Clause would allow people to flex and adapt in these first few turns.

The Third phase of a match is the rest of the battle and I can't really describe that without being a huge dork in my words, other people might be able to describe it. tldr the first few turns make stuff happen and now there's huge giant setups that are just begging to be started, and taken advantage of.

it's all about prediction, and wifi clause allows for some very fun prediction games. Because if a battle has no surprises, it is not fun. it's a lot like chess, and to quote Radomus "This is not unlike a game of chess, wherein various strategies are tried in various formation."

Look, IM fucking supporting this. And I have been in the past EVEN MORE STUBBORN THAN ERICK on keeping reborn different. You know want to know how that ended up? It ended up in me developing a metaphorical bloodclot that only made me angrier, and angrier. It's just better to accept change and go with the flow.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Noivy

[Ruby Riding Hood]

Keeping it short and sweet. I think Wifi is stupid, so...

OFF WITH THIS DREAD!

[Neo]

Golly, thanks for the contribution. The discussion is finally settled, wow, such a decisive final word.

[Kamina]

I am really confused as to the reason for keeping no team preview as the default in ladder. It is apparent that team preview makes the game more skill based as shown in moony's post about ditto. If people wanted a more casual experience they could just battle friends without team preview and if they had too much trouble doing that they could request a no team preview tour. The mechanics of a simulator should be mirrored to the actual game at lest for competitive play. Your post about deo-d/s and keldeo also being banned due to fanbase are irrelevant to this discussion because in x/y you can use whatever pokemon you please. We have tiers depending on how well Pokemon preform in a certain meta and pokemon focuses more on doubles anyways. Also, most people flock to reborn because of the reborn game. I remember when shofu started doing a walkthrough of the reborn game and the amount of people in the forums and the server shot up significantly. Reborn is what it is not because of its tiering and I know for a fact that the our tiering system has deterred more outsiders from the server than attracted.

[Shamitako]

So, I don't really battle outside the actual games much anymore, but I figured I'd drop my opinion here

I happen to dislike team preview because it makes it a lot harder to run Pokemon with only one really usable set. Further, I usually run a dedicated lead, and team preview really kills that (In fact I specifically always carry two leads in Y now to counter this problem) Aside from those two points, I have no problem with it. It doesn't make either of those unusable, just a lot harder to use. And who says hard is bad? I'd say that it should at least be the default option, but also that there should be an option. With and without preview are almost two entirely seperate metas

Also, just to show how little I know, what's AO?

Edited August 21, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[diana]

(alpha omega, a relatively high-standing clan on PO as a whole filled with people that know how to battle)

I personally cast my vote for having it be the default tier, if only for the fact that if not, it's going to end up like Clear Skies was- unused. While you could argue that "people who want the tier can use it to show their dedication", you need to remember that not everyone on the server knows what tiers are, and the majority are going to ladder on the default tier, whichever it is. It's already standard elsewhere, even in the games themselves, so why shouldn't we?

tl;dr Wifi OU for standard tier, most points I'd like to make are explained in better detail by Lobos.

[FeatherDuster]

I feel like it is a random battle instead of a real tier battle without Wifi Clause. Team previews allow for more skill during the battle and less guessing about the opponents team.

[Magus]

Well I guess I should give my 2 cents in on this. The singles meta game is all about predicting switches, and trying to get the match up needed to make plays, but when you remove that, it makes is more about a game of chance. You can't read your opponent at all because you don't what they have. Team preview is needed, besides, we are on gen 6 and this was implemented back in gen 5. Why is Reborn so far behind compared to other servers, and dare I say Shodown. The entire reason why I don't ladder on Reborn is because there is no team preview. So please implement it, these are competitive battles, testing your knowledge of the meta.

[Sapphire]

Why is Reborn so far behind compared to other servers, and dare I say Shodown.

Because a lot of people come to Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

[Jelly]

Because a lot of people come to Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

Conversely, a lot of people leave Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

[Dark Desire]

I don't see people swarming to our server just because we still use no preview, so I wouldn't say we gain more then we lose by it

[Neo]

Because a lot of people come to Reborn specifically BECAUSE there's no team preview.

You =/= a lot of people.

What really end up happening is that people get here, then they like to latch onto 'muh rebarn culture' (Again, something I'm guilty of in the past), and oppose any sort of change. Progress, in the right direction mind you, is good. This is a change that we should welcome in order to foster the growth of Reborn.

[diana]

I'm completely with Erick and Lobos and numerous other people for the same goal here; this is healthy, good progress, and something that needs to be done.

Team Preview is a healther gameplay style overall, allowing for more intensive and SOLID prediciton (i.e "they'll switch to this" instead of "they could be running any one of these things") and it's not a change that's going to hurt anyone.

[Sapphire]

You =/= a lot of people.

What really end up happening is that people get here, then they like to latch onto 'muh rebarn culture' (Again, something I'm guilty of in the past), and oppose any sort of change. Progress, in the right direction mind you, is good. This is a change that we should welcome in order to foster the growth of Reborn.

You need to stop assuming I'm talking about myself when I refer to lots of people. I counted 4 different people on server saying they came to reborn because of no preview.

And as for everyone making the arguments for team preview-they're good arguments, and we already know them. It doesn't mean that that's what everyone wants.

[Neo]

4 people cannot be used for any major measure when the server has 60+ people on average.

If the person doesn't want team preview, they don't have to ladder on the default ladder. The issue here is that the vast majority of people expect certain things from any ladder worth its salt, and one of them is Wifi clause.

[Chevaleresse]

I'm going to say a few things here, and I don't care if you think one contradicts the others.

One. Rejecting an idea because of who proposes it is stupid. Formally stupid, in fact; that's tantamount to what you call an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy, which is a fancy way of saying it's a really poor and unethical way to argue, which is a polite way of calling people who use it stupid.

Two. Individualism is great, yeah, I get it. I'm an individualist and a nonconformist. However, being different for the sake of being different is also stupid. The whole point of individualism, even when applied to a community, is to ensure that one can be healthy by being oneself, not to show how fancy and special you are.

Three. Tossing insults around instead of actual discussion as I've seen happen in every goddamn thread about competitive battling on this forum is also stupid. Responding to "I think wifi clause is good" with "lol that argument sucks so fuck you" is toxic, and I know toxic. This also applies to suggestions.

tl;dr stop bitching at each other and have a civil discussion so I don't have to start cursing on this forum any more

With that out of the way, I support the idea of making wifi clause the default, and having a separate tier for no preview. People who are that bent about wifi clause can use the no-preview tier. Team preview is more competitive in my humble opinion due to the elimination of gimmicks and it tests each player more. Limiting the information available to the player when they have no way to find said information before it sweeps half of their team a la Genesect makes for a very frustrating and very uncompetitive experience. Without preview, you could feasibly pull off well-known gimmicks like FEAR Rattata and Aron, and it makes it basically impossible to run more niche pokes such as Shedinja because you can't really determine if there's a threat to them without burning through valuable HP and turns scouting them. This isn't a RTS where scouting is simple and easy; every single member of your team needs to do something important, and each is invaluable.