Four Badges Team

[Firebane]

Hello, as the title says I've got four badges (I'm currently on the beach part). I've had quite a good time with them, I generally lose due to lack of knowledge, like the gym leader girl using nicknamed pokemon xD.

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Reasons and excuses as to why I'm using the team above:

Vivillon -> I was using Pixie Plate for Spiritomb, I was able to 2 or 3 OHKO it with Draining Kiss, don't fully remember now. Technically I don't have any other item to use atm.

Pyroar -> I don't know if I will keep it yet, it doesn't have the best coverage in the world and its ability is way too situational, still, Noble Roar helped me a lot in the beginning so I don't regret getting it. Nothing much I can do here aside from replacing Work Up with Overheat and Echoed Voice with Hyper Voice. It's using scope lens because I have nothing else to give.

Greninja -> Its moveset is weird I admit xD, but I was technically making it learn moves that would cover things that others didn't, Round is a bit out of place there but that's because I had Lick, so Lick & Round combination was pretty good early game (specially Lick).

Mr. Mime -> Recently joined the team, it's a good lead when Vivillon can't Sleep Powder things or is slower than the opponent's lead. I had charge beam initially but I think Psychic + Ghost combination is a way better coverage, analysing the pokemon individually of course. It's using scope lens because I have nothing else to give.²

Roselia -> I would call it my ace, its utility can't be calculated. It's pretty good early game if you have 1 hour or 2 to spare by trying to get Black Sludge. It literally solo'd all three PULSE Tangrowths with some Toxic Spikes support, Growth and Giga/Mega Drain. I might even replace Pyroar for Ninetales just to abuse Growth and Synthesis in the future.

About the natures, EVs and even moves, they will be way more organized when I stop to breed everyone which will be technically when I'm 100% sure that the team will be used through the whole game.

Ok so, I'm looking replacements but my main goal with this topic is a sixth member, I guess an eletric type would be good since I have no moves from that type, but I'm open to suggestions as well, being eletric type or not.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Firebane

[Damage]

I'm no Ash Ketchum but yeah fix Greninja's movepool since spa/spd are his thing. Pyroar imo isn't too great and yeah I've heard a lot of people buzz about Ninetails but you can get Arcanine sooner depending how "loving" you are and in terms of power he just wins. As far as bug types go while the game doesn't have an insane amount there are better ones. My personal favorite bug Escavalier that you get around "Sigmund's chapter" is insanely powerful for this game and if you trade for it you get it with 2X exp boost. Don't know much about Mime or Roserade to make the best judgements but a better Psychic/Fairy is easily Gardevoir who is probably the strongest fairy excluding the legendary. Final note you don't seem to have any defensive players and common type attacks like fighting/fire can dominate your entire team. One Infernape rolls in and this team could get ruined. Pick up a tank unfortunately the best tanks also continue your fire/fighting weakness. So you may want to do a bit of switching if you want a balanced team. Hope this helps

[Etesian]

Welp, not much to say here, you're still at a rather early point of the game. What can be said is that Vivilion, Pyroar, and Mr.Mime have terrible defense and there are better attackers out there.

If you want to keep them, Shield Dust would be better for Vivilion, Psybeam and Light Screen would also be useful.

A whole lot of new usable Pokemon and breeding-material will become useful as you go on. Until you get to some of them, Yamask, Stunfisk (seriously), Drapion (in the next area, you can use Rock Smash to get Nincada>Ninjask which can breed Swords Dance onto Drapion), Zoroark, Leavanny (if you wait for E13, Sewaddle will get Sticky Web at level 31), Venomoth and Skuntank.

The best Electric types you can get in Reborn would be Ampharos and Heliolisk. Ampharos can easily and quickly get Agility, as Bunelby, Buneary and Growlithe can be gotten very early. Heliolisk with Solar Power and Vulpix with Drought break the 6th gym. It also pays of to get it in the long run, you can later get a Pansage to breed Grass Knot onto it, use a Dark Pulse TM and use the Surf HM (to be gotten in E13). Though you should wait with evolving Helioptile until level 40/49 for Volt Switch/Thunderbolt.

That's all I've got for now since you said you're unsure about who stays and who goes and the good breeding "components" are yet to be reached.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Etesian

[Damage]

You didn't mention Raichu and he ain't nothin to sleep on. Drapion is decent atk/speed as well as 2nd best typing before fairy came along.

[Etesian]

You didn't mention Raichu and he ain't nothin to sleep on. Drapion is decent atk/speed as well as 2nd best typing before fairy came along.

Raichu's attack stats are only 90s, it learns only Electric and Normal attacks by leveling up and breeding and it's bulk is pretty bad. Nasty Plot access is nice, but Amphy and Helio seem better.

[Firebane]

I've never used Drapion in any game, so this is definitely a good moment to test. I like to use pokemons I've never used before (or barely used) in fan-made games xD.

Well, I will follow your advice Etesian and progress a bit, I might even stay with this team till the end of episode 12 and while I wait for episode 13, I can work on a more balanced team.

@Damage: I was just facing the Ex-Fire gym later as I was reading your post xD, when I saw Infernape I started to sweat not gonna lie, but thanks to the (manipulated) rain, I ohko'd it with Greninja, after taking a mach punch. Gonna keep your post in mind as well.

Thank you 2.

Quick edit: about the eletric types, Heliolisk seems interesting to me, I would have no problem using Raichu or even Light Ball Pikachu (idk if it's available), but I've already used both so much in Fire Red or gen 3 hacks that I wanna explore new horizons you guys feel me xD.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Firebane

[Damage]

@Etesian, yeah i just hate Ampharos' speed but his bulk has saved me countless times. I've yet to hear anything bad about Heliosk and I almost chose him my last playthrough.

@Firebane glad to help, and mainly the suggestions are most accurate on paper. During a real fight much like your rain, no one can ever say beforehand what's going to happen. I think all fire/fighting pokes are starters but fire and fighting types are really common making up 15% of all pokemon. But this game is about strategy so I'm sure if you plan like you did with the rain, any team can win. Unless it has some loser like Mr.Bigglesworth.

[Beefkek]

Dont limt yourself on 6 pokemon

[Firebane]

Dont limt yourself on 6 pokemon

Well taking a look at your signature, I can see where that advice is coming from xD. I just like to have my 6 main buddies with me then perhaps replace one or another when the situation asks for it, like HM slaves or a pokemon that is exceptional good on an important battle (which I'm probably endlessly losing).

Edited August 25, 2014 by Firebane

[dondon151]

Vivillon is a solid Pokemon in-game because it gets the Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance combination (on top of Compoundeyes to boost Sleep Powder's accuracy) and dual STABs in the form of Bug Buzz and Hurricane. Hurricane is glitched as of the current build, but it's the go-to move later on once it gets fixed. It also gets a fair boost from Compoundeyes. I dislike the suggestion of Light Screen and Psybeam because they are simply not good - Quiver Dance already boosts Vivillon's special defense, plus Psybeam is a poor coverage move that requires a Heart Scale to learn. You're better off keeping Draining Kiss.

Pyroar is also better than Arcanine in-game if you don't breed.

[Sheep]

Draining Kiss's coverage is pretty much redundant on Vivillon when compared to Psybeam. Psybeam will take a heart scale to get though, so you may not want it. As for Heliolisk? That lizard is ballin. I've used it myself, it's really good. Just don't expect Helioptile to do anything, 'cause it won't. It's better to just wait until the rest of your team gets to the level at which it learns thunderbolt and then grind it right up.

[Firebane]

I just kept Draining Kiss for Shade (I thought Shade was dark-type, not ghost) and Kiki, I will remove it as soon as a better move appears, don't wanna waste heart scales right now xD.

About Heliolisk, ok I will wait and grind it up.

[dondon151]

Draining Kiss's coverage is pretty much redundant on Vivillon when compared to Psybeam. Psybeam will take a heart scale to get though, so you may not want it.

It still hits Fighting SE whereas Bug Buzz doesn't, but you're right - it's just a filler move until Vivillon learns Hurricane (and when Hurricane gets fixed). The healing might come in handy after Vivillon takes damage setting up - for, like, 6 levels.

[Damage]

Arcanine Fire

90/110/80/100/80/95-555 All abilities are useful in most scenarios but Intimidate is probably best for this game

Pyroar Fire/Normal

86/68/72/109/66/106-507 Only moxie is really useful as rivalry can easily bring things south especially if you have a male Pyroar.

Arc's called the legendary for a reason. puppy power like scrappy doo

[dondon151]

Arcanine Fire

90/110/80/100/80/95-555 All abilities are useful in most scenarios but Intimidate is probably best for this game

Pyroar Fire/Normal

86/68/72/109/66/106-507 Only moxie is really useful as rivalry can easily bring things south especially if you have a male Pyroar.

Arc's called the legendary for a reason. puppy power like scrappy doo

What a lazy argument. It seems like this mindset is pretty prevalent here, though, so I'll dispel these notions.

Base stat total is not fully indicative of how good a Pokemon is because the distribution matters, as do other factors such as evolution level, level-up movepool, and typing. From the base stats alone, we can see that Pyroar is approximately as offensively powerful as Arcanine (comparing the former's special atk to the latter's atk), and that Pyroar is faster. Defensively, Pyroar is just slightly worse.

The evolutionary method and level-up movepools are more indicative here. Litleo evolves at L35; Growlithe evolves by Fire Stone, which itself is not available until Pokemon are L40+. But if Growlithe wants to learn good moves, it has to delay evolution until L45, so Litleo evolves earlier.

Litleo's level-up movepool is not quite as good as Growlithe's early on, but it's still good with moves such as Work Up, Headbutt, and Fire Fang. The drawback is that these moves run off its weaker atk stat, but the benefit is that Headbutt comes very early with STAB and Moxie helps to make up for deficient offensive power. They get Flamethrower at about the same level, but Litleo uses it off a higher special atk stat, plus it later gets Hyper Voice and Overheat to Growlithe's Flare Blitz (Outrage is pretty garbage when not boosted or coming off STAB). Growlithe's movepool is better if it gets CC via breeding, but the time spent breeding could be better spent getting through the game, or reading a book, or something.

Litleo is also available earlier and does something useful during a part of the game where Growlithe doesn't exist. So it has that working in its favor. I'm not sure if Litleo also gets a trade EXP bonus in this game, but if it does, that's also a massive point in its favor.

I should point out that Arcanine is a pretty good Pokemon, especially in this game where alternatives are lackluster. If I had to rank Arcanine and Pyroar in a tier list, I'd probably rank them in the same tier, with Pyroar being higher.

Edited August 26, 2014 by dondon151

[Damage]

But if it's movepool isn't as good, its stats aren't as good and it has to wait until around the same level to evolve then how is it better? Yeah I agree having boosted exp is great especially in this game but like I said earlier in this post, my advice is best on paper which is where Arcanine wins. If one has to wait until evolving to make use of its stats then it's going to be harder to train and keep alive. Moxie is a great ability but if the poke isn't strong enough to kill then all it is, is a cool name under your pokemon's description.

Tier wise I don't know how any pokemon rank so if I line up the ones I want on paper and one's better with no outside influence that's the one I'll gamble on.

[Etesian]

What a lazy argument. It seems like this mindset is pretty prevalent here, though, so I'll dispel these notions.

Base stat total is not fully indicative of how good a Pokemon is because the distribution matters, as do other factors such as evolution level, level-up movepool, and typing. From the base stats alone, we can see that Pyroar is approximately as offensively powerful as Arcanine (comparing the former's special atk to the latter's atk), and that Pyroar is faster. Defensively, Pyroar is just slightly worse.

The evolutionary method and level-up movepools are more indicative here. Litleo evolves at L35; Growlithe evolves by Fire Stone, which itself is not available until Pokemon are L40+. But if Growlithe wants to learn good moves, it has to delay evolution until L45, so Litleo evolves earlier.

Litleo's level-up movepool is not quite as good as Growlithe's early on, but it's still good with moves such as Work Up, Headbutt, and Fire Fang. The drawback is that these moves run off its weaker atk stat, but the benefit is that Headbutt comes very early with STAB and Moxie helps to make up for deficient offensive power. They get Flamethrower at about the same level, but Litleo uses it off a higher special atk stat, plus it later gets Hyper Voice and Overheat to Growlithe's Flare Blitz (Outrage is pretty garbage when not boosted or coming off STAB). Growlithe's movepool is better if it gets CC via breeding, but the time spent breeding could be better spent getting through the game, or reading a book, or something.

Litleo is also available earlier and does something useful during a part of the game where Growlithe doesn't exist. So it has that working in its favor. I'm not sure if Litleo also gets a trade EXP bonus in this game, but if it does, that's also a massive point in its favor.

I should point out that Arcanine is a pretty good Pokemon, especially in this game where alternatives are lackluster. If I had to rank Arcanine and Pyroar in a tier list, I'd probably rank them in the same tier, with Pyroar being higher.

Regarding stat distribution, only Pyroar's speed is better than any of Arcanine's stats (Sp.atk doesn't matter as Arcanine's Atk is better than Pyroars S.A). Physical bulk is slightly weaker, but there's quite a difference in Special bulk. Pyroar also has an extra weakness, a pretty common one at that, which it got in exchange for an immunity to a pretty rare type.

Level-up method only matters early on. Sure, early on Pyroar is more useful than Growlithe, but not more than Arcanine. You can also get a Sun Stone as soon as you get Rock Smash, at level 35 or less even. The point about delay to level 45 stands, so Pyroar has a 15 level range it's useful in. Having stronger moves is also nothing Pyroar can brag about. Arcanine has 3 120 BP moves (how is Outrage garbage?), Pyroar's only 100+ BP moves are Overheat, barely stronger than Flare Blitz, and Hyper Beam (which makes you immobile for a turn). With that low defense, buffing isn't advisable, Headbutt is bad in the long run, same for Fire Fang.

Arcanine's movepool is better even without CC, which takes hardly any time to get. Just grap a Mankey/Primeape from Route 1, get it 10-ish levels and you're good to go. With the Unown in Citae, grinding is really easy. How easy something is to get doesn't affect how useful it is in the long run, which is the point of this.

Again, no one's denying that it's useful early on. Just that Arcanine is better in the long run.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Etesian

[dondon151]

But if it's movepool isn't as good, its stats aren't as good and it has to wait until around the same level to evolve then how is it better? Yeah I agree having boosted exp is great especially in this game but like I said earlier in this post, my advice is best on paper which is where Arcanine wins.

My point was that Litleo evolves earlier than Growlithe. If Growlithe wants Flare Blitz, it either has to be bred (yuck) or it has to hold off evolution until L45, which is a whole 10 levels later than Litleo - that's quite a significant difference. If it doesn't want Flare Blitz, it loses its best physical STAB and it still ends up evolving later than Litleo based on the location of the first obtainable Fire Stone.

The term "on paper" is a bit misleading. My comparison is a bit more practical, but it's still "on paper" since it has to make a bunch of assumptions in order to make the comparison seem fair. In practice it could be quite different, and I suspect that Litleo would have an even greater advantage because of the increased availability, slightly better level-up movepool, and trade EXP bonus.

If one has to wait until evolving to make use of its stats then it's going to be harder to train and keep alive. Moxie is a great ability but if the poke isn't strong enough to kill then all it is, is a cool name under your pokemon's description.

Both of these Pokemon have very solid stats for unevolved Pokemon. Litleo's BST is actually a little higher (for what it's worth), but late evolution is still a serious problem for Growlithe.

Regarding stat distribution, only Pyroar's speed is better than any of Arcanine's stats (Sp.atk doesn't matter as Arcanine's Atk is better than Pyroars S.A). Physical bulk is slightly weaker, but there's quite a difference in Special bulk. Pyroar also has an extra weakness, a pretty common one at that, which it got in exchange for an immunity to a pretty rare type.

It's incredibly misleading to flatly declare that Arcanine has a better offensive stat than Pyroar when it's a 1 point difference. The difference in speed can actually matter, however. Bulk tends to not be as useful in-game because sweeping is much easier to do.

Normal type's Fighting weakness is not an insignificant problem, since Victoria, Kiki, and Samson focus on Fighting-type Pokemon. It doesn't tend to be very common otherwise. I would rather have STAB on Normal-type moves in exchange for Fighting weakness + Ghost immunity because they provide an option against Fire, Dragon, and Water-types, and the STAB tends to be very useful earlygame.

Level-up method only matters early on. Sure, early on Pyroar is more useful than Growlithe, but not more than Arcanine. You can also get a Sun Stone as soon as you get Rock Smash, at level 35 or less even. The point about delay to level 45 stands, so Pyroar has a 15 level range it's useful in. Having stronger moves is also nothing Pyroar can brag about. Arcanine has 3 120 BP moves (how is Outrage garbage?), Pyroar's only 100+ BP moves are Overheat, barely stronger than Flare Blitz, and Hyper Beam (which makes you immobile for a turn). With that low defense, buffing isn't advisable, Headbutt is bad in the long run, same for Fire Fang.

There are several problems with this analysis.

- I'm assuming you made a mistake with the Sun Stone, because the Fire Stone is relevant. The first one to my knowledge is on the bottom floor of Pyrous Mt.

- Close Combat should not be relevant, for reasons that I'll explain below.

- Outrage is garbage because it has next to zero coverage, is not boosted in any way, and self-confuses. Imagine if Arcanine learned Thrash at L43 - would you be jumping at the chance to learn it? Probably not. Pyroar's Hyper Voice also doesn't add coverage, but it's stronger to begin with, can be boosted, and doesn't lock in with confusion after 2-3 turns.

- The big drawback with Flare Blitz is the recoil. Flare Blitz being stronger than Flamethrower doesn't necessarily mean that it's unequivocally better; I could just as well say that Pyroar's STABs don't necessitate recoil damage.

- Boosting can be perfectly acceptable despite mediocre defenses. Blaziken can boost with Bulk Up even against special attackers. The only caveat here is that it's obviously not a universal option. There's also the option of facilitating setup with Noble Roar.

- Of course Headbutt and Fire Fang are bad in the long run. That's why you replace them with Hyper Voice and Flamethrower. Even Echoed Voice has some strong damaging potential, since it's like Fury Cutter.

Arcanine's movepool is better even without CC, which takes hardly any time to get. Just grap a Mankey/Primeape from Route 1, get it 10-ish levels and you're good to go. With the Unown in Citae, grinding is really easy. How easy something is to get doesn't affect how useful it is in the long run, which is the point of this.

What do I do with the Mankey/Primeape from Route 1? (Don't answer; that's a rhetorical question - the point is that getting a CC Primeape doesn't mean that you're even close to "good to go;" you have to breed it with the Arcanine, hatch an egg, level it back up to ~L50, and then use another Fire Stone.)

What I don't understand is why the cost of obtaining such an Arcanine is completely handwaved. In economics, there is the concept of opportunity cost, which essentially suggests that in order to accurately gauge the net profit of a given activity, the profit you get from that activity should be compared to the profit that you would obtain from an alternate activity. If you've spent a lot of time breeding CC onto Growlithe, then why is the opportunity cost of that effort not considered? You could have bred a move onto some other Pokemon, or you could have been grinding another Pokemon, or you could have progressed through the game, or you could have gone and done something else entirely.

A brief aside for the movepool comment: Litleo gets Headbutt at L11, which is better than anything Growlithe has until it appears. At L20, Growlithe's attacking options are arguably slightly better (though Headbutt w/ Moxie is better vs. neutral targets than Flame Wheel or Fire Fang). Litleo gets Take Down at L20, which isn't great because of accuracy and recoil issues, but it's there. At L33 Litleo pulls ahead with Echoed Voice, which may or may not be better overall than Growlithe's L34 Flamethrower. Litleo gets its own Flamethrower at L36/L38. If you're not overestimating Outrage and Flare Blitz, it's not obvious that Growlithe's level-up movepool is better at all. Parallel movepool comparisons are further muddied by the considerations below.

Opportunity cost also applies to the EXP problem. Litleo is in the medium slow EXP group, gets a trade EXP bonus, and appears early enough in the game at an acceptable level (since you have to trade a Bibarel). Growlithe is in the slow EXP group, doesn't get a trade EXP bonus, and appears at a point in the game where it will be at least 8 levels below the party average.

In your philosophy, Growlithe should immediately catch up, with no consideration for the extra effort that it takes to do so. Why? For what reason should Litleo's triple advantage of better EXP group, trade EXP bonus, and better relative starting level be ignored? It really doesn't make sense. So a fair comparison wouldn't be something like:

L20 Litleo vs. L20 Growlithe

L30 Litleo vs. L30 Growlithe

L45 Pyroar vs. L45 Arcanine

It would be more like:

L28 Litleo vs. L20 Growlithe

L36 Pyroar vs. L30 Growlithe

L49 Pyroar vs. L45 Arcanine

Not only is Litleo's level rightfully higher due to the better EXP gain situation, but it also contributes to the team. Consider that it takes fewer battles for Litleo to approach the maximum badge level. That means that other team Pokemon can fight more battles, and therefore their levels will be higher on average in a team with Litleo than in a team with Growlithe.

Again, no one's denying that it's useful early on. Just that Arcanine is better in the long run.

No one actually said that Arcanine is "better in the long run;" they just disagreed with my assertion that "Pyroar is better than Arcanine in-game if you don't breed." If you want to make a comment about whether a Pokemon is better or worse than another Pokemon, you must take the entire game into account.

EDIT: Wow this post turned out way longer than I thought it would be, and it's probably not very suited to this forum.

Edited August 27, 2014 by dondon151

[Sheep]

It's incredibly misleading to flatly declare that Arcanine has a better offensive stat than Pyroar when it's a 1 point difference. The difference in speed can actually matter, however. Bulk tends to not be as useful in-game because sweeping is much easier to do.

- I'm assuming you made a mistake with the Sun Stone, because the Fire Stone is relevant. The first one to my knowledge is on the bottom floor of Pyrous Mt.

- Outrage is garbage because it has next to zero coverage, is not boosted in any way, and self-confuses. Imagine if Arcanine learned Thrash at L43 - would you be jumping at the chance to learn it? Probably not. Pyroar's Hyper Voice also doesn't add coverage, but it's stronger to begin with, can be boosted, and doesn't lock in with confusion after 2-3 turns.

- The big drawback with Flare Blitz is the recoil. Flare Blitz being stronger than Flamethrower doesn't necessarily mean that it's unequivocally better; I could just as well say that Pyroar's STABs don't necessitate recoil damage.

On the first point you're obviously forgetting about extreme speed, the best priority move in the game.

On the second, you can get a fire stone by mining if you want an early powerhouse that you can re-breed later.

On the third, I consider outrage to be quite handy, but that's just my opinion.

On the fourth, when a quick trip to the pokecenter can fix all of your problems then the extra power of recoil moves are 100% worth it, but again, that's my opinion. I already know you won't agree with it.

[dondon151]

On the first point you're obviously forgetting about extreme speed, the best priority move in the game.

It's insignificant against Pokemon that Arcanine already outspeeds because of low power. Against Pokemon Arcanine doesn't outspeed, you're not coming close to OHKOing anything with Extremespeed.

On the fourth, when a quick trip to the pokecenter can fix all of your problems then the extra power of recoil moves are 100% worth it, but again, that's my opinion. I already know you won't agree with it.

We know already that trips to the PC take time and recoil compromises sweeps.

[Sheep]

It's insignificant against Pokemon that Arcanine already outspeeds because of low power. Against Pokemon Arcanine doesn't outspeed, you're not coming close to OHKOing anything with Extremespeed.

It's not meant to OHKO. If you're slower for every hit you land but finish it off first though, you may as well have been faster to begin with.

[dondon151]

I am implying, however, that you should either expect to or at least aim to OHKO enemy Pokemon, since it's the most reliable way to defeat opponents and it's part of the reason why you even bother having other team members in the first place.