PokeNations:The Problem with Lack of Inclusion, Potential Abuse

[Chase]

Disclaimer: This thread's purpose is to discuss what the author deems to be issues with the PokeNations weekly contest that may have been caused by negligence or unknown causes when the project was launched, and as such, the author is not directly accusing any one nation, nation leader, or individual outright when suggesting that the problem is due in order to pursue an advantage in the contest. That being said, the author has the right, and will exercise it, to point out where potential scenarios cause these issues, and is willing to openly discuss whether or not these scenarios are helpful or do in fact, hinder the project.

Hello everyone! To open what may be the most controversial thread I have ever composed, I would like to establish MY background as it relates to Nations, and explain that I am not raising awareness because of the situation I myself take claim in. My name is Hilda. I've participated in a nations battle once, and I lost that match. (The battle log can be found in Week 3's match-ups thread.) I also have been given the opportunity to compete this week, which means by the end of this week (Week 5, for reference), I will have participated in 40 percent of the challenges thus far.

While I have enjoyed this project, the planning that is associated with it, the challenges the unique weekly restrictions bring, and even the fun teamwork it takes within your nation to try and find success, I want to bring attention to something that I feel is very alarming.

On average, each Nation currently has 20 members, and total, there are 118 registered, nation-allied battlers as of the time of this post.

If everyone was being given the chance to compete, the average amount of rosters one combatant would make on average at this point (Week 5) would be ONE roster. If you pay particular attention to specific battlers week to week, you know that isn't happening. (I myself just admitted to making my second roster this week, for reference.)

The larger issue is that for some of you, you haven't even seen your name on a roster yet.

So, that sentence above is the chief grievance I have with Nations so far. Below, I'll point out a few possible reasons why, you, my good sir or madam, may not have gotten the chance to compete in this very fun team-oriented contest.

[Chase]

Reason 1: Inactive Nation Members

Now, for you nation leaders out there, I can certainly understand you thinking "I can't just put someone who I don't know and who I know for certain has not showed up and put ANY effort into being considered for participation." So before I start making wild assumptions in later posts, here's what needs to be said to everyone who is aligned with a Nation, especially those who have yet to compete.

Be there, Be Available, Fulfill your Commitment.

Seriously. It will help out your Nation Leader when deciding who will compete on a week to week basis if all that needs to be said is "This person hasn't competed yet, and he/she is here wanting to." If you need help finding out what Pokemon Online is, ask around these forums. If you need to know where to go once you have Pokemon Online, it's the Pokemon Reborn Server. Your leaders are nominated in your nation's thread and most of the time, they will have the same PO alias as they do here on the forums. If you really want to compete, it would help if you voiced your concerns and took the initiative.

FOR NOW though, here's how, in the future, we can make registering for Nations a bit more reassuring for everyone involved, so that nobody gets left out, and on the other end, no leader is left wondering who or where you are.

1. The applicant must apply via the forums. (this already happens)

2. The applicant must then prove they can and are able to access Pokemon Online and the Reborn Server (this will need some moderation and any help anyone can provide on the application forum to back this up would suffice)

3. AFTER PROVEN ABLE, the applicant will then be assigned to a Nation on the forums (already happens without prerequisite)

4. The applicant must then notify the NATION LEADER of their existence, and address their intent to compete.

5. The applicant is now finished with application duties.

Edited August 26, 2014 by W1ng3d_One

[Chase]

Reason 2: Your Skill Level In Comparison to Others in Your Nation

Unfortunately, now is the time where the reasons behind your lack of battle at this point are not associated with your mistakes, but rather your nation leaders, coupled with those who are given the ability to scout out the relative talent everyone in the nation has.

Perhaps, you're not getting the nod because you have been deemed by your nation leader (and Co.) that your ability to battle competitively is not adequate, and here's what I have to say about that.

That shouldn't prevent you from getting a chance.

Nation leaders, I understand that your chances of winning increase when your roster slots have exceptional competitive ability. That's not a good enough reason to deny someone who has been in your nation the right to compete, and those who haven't competed yet SHOULD HAVE PRIORITY over those who have, when they are indeed ready and available to battle.

The consequences of making someone feel inadequate result in them having a negative experience, and that causes them to leave with a negative impression of the Reborn community. We don't want that here.

Edited August 26, 2014 by W1ng3d_One

[Chase]

Reason 3: First Come, First Serve

Now, I have to personally express that having an interest to compete would be certainly demonstrated and visible if you are able to quickly submit your interest to your Nation Leader. This is NOT A FAULT caused by said leader, unless he is allowing those who have competed before to have priority above you. In which case, LEADERS. STOP THAT NONSENSE. If you get beat by 5 people that ALSO have not been able to compete, then your out of luck for that week if your Nation Leader goes by "First Come, First Serve" when determining roster slots.

It's legitimate and doesn't rig the contest...FOR NOW. In the future, it may come under suspect if the SAME people are making the roster on a weekly basis. I'll take the time NOW to say it. One of the problems that I have seen is that people are getting placed on the roster on a week-to-week basis, and that not only gives the impression that some battlers are more prioritized than others based on preference or skill, but also aids in leaving out other nation members.

Edited August 26, 2014 by W1ng3d_One

[Chase]

Reason 4: Your Lack of Success Against A Fellow Nation Member's Winning Track Record

This reasoning behind not getting on a roster can be due to a number a factors. You could be a novice at competitive battling and those on the roster may be to some degree, more experienced.

You could be the most unlucky trainer of all time, having to deal with an above average amount of "hax" in order to remotely have a chance to win, on a regular basis.

You could be a renowned "negative K/D ratio" trainer, who is known for losing more than winning.

You could be even be somewhat decent at battling, but the people getting the nod above you are even more so.

Regardless of whatever the reason is, you are being overshadowed by those getting who seem to be more successful, and as such, you are indeed being wronged.

Edited August 26, 2014 by W1ng3d_One

[Chase]

Reason 5: Bias Aside From Pokemon In General

Do you ever get the feeling that people just don't "like" you for some reason? Maybe the issue behind your inability to compete is simply because your nation leader has a negative outlook on something that is associated with your character as opposed to Pokemon knowledge or battling ability.

If this is the case, you are being wronged.

Edited August 26, 2014 by W1ng3d_One

[Chase]

Reason 6: Failing to Survive in Intra-National Tournaments (Particularly in Early Rounds)

If you are reading this, and you HAVE NOT competed, allow me to explain what IS associated with PokeNations, and what isn't.

1. Your nation may plan as a group about your best pokemon and strategies to use against the opposing Nation

2. You may engage in practice battles to assist in team building for those who are on the roster, and provide experience for those who are not

3. You may compose informational notes as a group or by oneself.

4. The actual CHALLENGE part of the contest is simple. You battle the opponent that is drawn from the opposing nation to battle you, following the week's restrictions.

....what IS NOT required is having to show success in a tournament/ladder/best-of-#/whatever setup in order to make a roster. These implications, if being imposed by your nation leader, are wrongful and result in not only your lack of ability to compete, but also allow for consistently skilled battlers to make the roster.

Edited August 26, 2014 by W1ng3d_One

[Chase]

and finally, Reason 7: Pre-determined Line-Ups That Feature All-Star Competitors on a Weekly Basis

This one is self explanatory. If you have a Nation Leader that likes to put certain battlers up on a weekly basis, that lessens the amount of slots that new battlers can be placed in. Reasons for this are, but are not limited to...

1. Said battler has shown consistent success in challenges, which would help win challenges.

2. Said battler has been in the Nation Leaders face on Sunday morning at midnight wanting to compete, and have the resume to bolster their argument.

3. Said battler has a more favorable bias from the Leader than you, and MANY of your nation members do.

4. The Nation Leader is being remotely negligent and is allowing week-to-week performances to happen because it makes his/her role as a leader easier.

...and possibly other things. All of which, are depriving and all of which, are wrong.

Edited August 26, 2014 by W1ng3d_One

[Cowtao]

Here's the issue, which I don't think you know coming a leader of Volcanic.

I'm aware of my situation and the pot of controversy our team has started. I am a good example of a leader who subs in good players. Here's the catch. I try not to abuse the obviously good players but I want to win. That's what every leader wants. But also I am aware that I must have everybody have a fair shot. Here's the big issue.

There is only but 7-9 people really to choose from. Hell, it's worse in other nations. Despite the massive roster of people that you see, the actual group of people participating is so few that we have no choice but to make repetitive teams. Now, i'm a very different type of leader. My mission isn't to find out who is high-ladder or high-ranked or any of that. I need to see your skill personally before I make a decision and obviously with the people that keep coming back to the roster has proven their immense strength in pokemon. Not to say others aren't. I try to bring in as many new people as I can because at the same time, I want people to prove their own form of skill as well. I know a few people who have lost their first matchup like Kinglay7, but I'm still giving him an opportunity this week to fight.

It's not that I want to be very bland with my selection. I just don't have that many choices given to me. It's how the chips fall down to each nation. If we can get a better idea of who we really have working with us then I can get a better idea of who to add. That really is the only problem to me imo.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I think this is kinda aimed at Ruin to be honest, but we actually have the least amount of people who actually show up, and then I am busy all the time so I can't participate even though I want to. ((I could if I scummed a team from somebody in the nation, but I don't like taking others teams in a competition as it feels like cheating t me in a way. Also I would rather use something I crafted with my own two hands.)) we have a pretty similar roster most weeks. Hopefully Equ gets in here to back my butt up, since I am a bit of a derp when it comes to this stuff. But we would love to let others get a chance from our rosters, but I haven't seen a lot of them on the servers EVER and it has been 5 weeks, if you don't have time in 5 weeks to even show once, you basically tell me you don't want to be a part of what is going on. ((and while I haven't battled I contribute to teambuilding and spitballing strategies when I can, so I am anything but inactive.))

[Chase]

Exactly, Tao.

Reason #1 is the first thing I listed because I KNOW that 70 percent of the problem is coming from misleading roster availability and lack of participation from those that signed up.

I only mentioned the other six reasons because those who -may- or -may not- be out there and STILL haven't gotten a chance, or may have been run out of their nation because of the way it was run, also need to know that there is a spot for them.

I wouldn't blame you for not putting someone on your roster if they weren't there to compete. Most of the problem isn't any one person, but the way the challenges have been launched without solidifying most of the people that signed up.

I wish I didn't have to point anything else out, but it happened nonetheless and due to those same complications of not really having enough people active, it's GOING to have an effect on the outcome of the contest.

[Chase]

Again, I wasn't aiming to shame anyone. I have multiple goals for this thread.

1. People discuss how to make Nations more inclusive down the road.

2. People that drifted away can see they are MUCH needed.

3. Those in charge can see public complaints about complications regarding inclusion and roster management.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I know you aren't Hilda, I see you intent in this, and it must be very important to you to go to such lengths to do so. I am going to piece out for now, as I have said my piece and I don't want to harp on about it.

[Void]

afaik there isn't really anyone who's actually active and hasn't got to play yet. basically, only 'reason #1' is relevant here, and I don't really see the problem with that. if you want to play, it's your obligation to let your nation's leader know that you are available. those who are inactive don't get to play, I don't see any issue here.

[Chase]

I would love to agree with you Void, because I wouldn't have spent all night working on this thread here. However, the problem isn't JUST because people are inactive.

[Void]

You obviously have spent a lot of time on this, so I hate to just brush it aside just like that, but are there actually any active players who haven't gotten a chance yet? Better players do get on the roster more often (as it should be) but it's not like the others haven't been getting opportunities to play. Overall I've actually been surprised at the amount of swapping most nation leaders have been doing from week to week, it's more than I expected.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Void

[Lord Bagel]

I agree with this post so much it isn't even funny, I used to be part of the volcanic nation but after being on the roster for the second time in the 3rd week and seeing that we had the exact same competitors every damn time i quit because i found it completely unfair. I get how people want to win but if you only ever let the best compete then that ruins all the fun.

[Sapphire]

3. Those in charge can see public complaints about complications regarding inclusion and roster management.

We are aware.

[Notus]

Bagel, I think you are overstating that a bit. As Tao said, we don't have too many active players to choose from. Even when I try to get in the server to check our nation's channel, most of the time there's only two or three people there. All of the members I've seen on the channel so far did get picked for the roster, and one surely can't expect the leader to pick someone who, for all the effects, isn't even available.

Also, if there's any member of Volcanic who wants to battle, please make yourself heard. Post in our thread, send PMs, pop by the server and come to our team building sessions. If you show up, I'm sure you'll get your chance.

And, to wrap this up: I do agree with Hilda's points and just realized it's my third week in the roster. Therefore, after this week I'd like to be excluded of the next rosters, unless it's an emergency situation and we don't have enough people to battle.

[Sutoratosu]

Pretty much everything Notus just said.

I for one tend to take a passive stance and simply place myself on standby when challenges come up, meaning That I don't volunteer myself for combat since I've already gone in the first challenge, and think of it as letting others have a chance to go before I step forward and volunteer to enter the fray again. but even on standby, I still try to stay involved in the nation's business on a regular basis and attend team building and strategy sessions and the like. that's probably the reason why I haven't been called upon to fight since then,

((I'm being general here, For the sake of letting sleeping dogs lie. I'm not going to bring up the mix-up controversy that occurred recently, or even mention it here again after this sentence is finished, so I hope others will also be mature about it and refrain from bringing it up.))

because that was actually my intention. That said though, If I am called up to fight during standby, I won't question or refuse it, I'll simply try to serve my nation with my best effort.

But enough on that. you've seemed to have spent a lot of time and work on this, and all those reasons that you've put are perfectly valid to be included in this argument, but at this point in PN, I feel that the first reason you put is the most relevant of them all. Especially in Volcanic right now.

I do believe that a little while ago, Cow actually compiled a list detailing the in-active members. though I will not flag their names out in the open here. me doing that would only serve to shame the people in question. but just know we have proof that Reason #1 is the prime problem in our particular nation.

[Felicity]

Well, some of this is just down to people in charge learning to handle their nations through trial and error as I see it. Nations is still somewhat in it's early stages, though this excuse is slowly becoming less applicable, so there's no precedent as to how to deal with it, unless you have taken place in a similar activity. This makes managing nations much more difficult for the leaders, and this is from what I can speculate. I'm sure there's more issues with this that the leaders can talk about if they wish

Furthermore when considering how people lose interest, people were coming off of league, a regular(Ish) scheduled event that you could take part in as you wish. When comparing league and Nations, which is something that many people do whether they admit to it or not, the amount of battles for the individual is significantly less, resulting in people losing interest and failing to be available.

[Gaunt]

You obviously have spent a lot of time on this, so I hate to just brush it aside just like that, but are there actually any active players who haven't gotten a chance yet? Better players do get on the roster more often (as it should be) but it's not like the others haven't been getting opportunities to play. Overall I've actually been surprised at the amount of swapping most nation leaders have been doing from week to week, it's more than I expected.

There are, me for example like really i check the rooster every week to see if i was "chosen" to fight (for the first 3 weeks i even prepared a team) but nada and well for the most part it's my fault i think but:

1) I didn't know that i had to tell the Leader of my Nation if i'm ready or not (it's not in the "rules" so idk)

2) I (almost) never log in on the Server but that's because i hate chats with all the trolls and hating, again i didn't know that i had to do it (if i knew i would not participate)

In conclusion i'm ready every week so (from the next week i assume) if someone can't participate i can be a substitute and maybe (just maybe) there are other people like me out there that simply didn't know.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gaunt

[Sapphire]

For me, I try and rotate all the actives in Aurora. We have a pretty solid pool of 9-11 people who are on the server in the Aurora backchannel regularly. My view is that if you aren't on the server in 5 weeks, you aren't active.

[Void]

There are, me for example like really i check the rooster every week to see if i was "chosen" to fight (for the first 3 weeks i even prepared a team) but nada and well for the most part it's my fault i think but:

1) I didn't know that i had to tell the Leader of my Nation if i'm ready or not (it's not in the "rules" so idk)

2) I (almost) never log in on the Server but that's because i hate chats with all the trolls and hating, again i didn't know that i had to do it (if i knew i would not participate)

In conclusion i'm ready every week so (from the next week i assume) if someone can't participate i can be a substitute and maybe (just maybe) there are other people like me out there that simply didn't know.

It's not in the rules but it's common sense really that you should speak to your leader, you can't expect to make the roster when your leader doesn't know if you are active or available to play or not. If you don't like going on the server you can always send him/her a PM on the forums.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I'm sorry Gaunt, but Ruin usually decides the day the Roster goes up and we pick who is on the server, that way we know for sure they will be there. If you want to get in on a fight just get on the server or at least PM Equ or something. If you at least do that I am sure He will consider you ((and I am pretty sure you will get picked, we can't be too overly choosy, we have a small pool of people.)). Otherwise how are we to know you are still actually going to participate? ((also, if you come on the server just hang in the Ruin Room and close the Grand Hall a.k.a main. we don't get trolls in the back channel, that shouldn't be an issue.))

It isn't so much that you need to tell your Leader you are ready or what not, we just need to know you are going to be there, or are still interested. Somebody we haven't seen hide nor hair of on the server doesn't exactly scream "I want to play guys.". I will make sure you don't get looked over next week, so I got your back man, but promise that you will at least make an effort to get on the server ((or at a minimum, talk with Equ our leader.)), that way the other Ruin members know you want to be a part of this and that you are interested in what is going on. Nations isn't only a battling thing, Nations are kinda groups of Friends, and we in Ruin ((or at least me)), believe that we should hang on the servers and get to know each other at least a little that way we know who we fight alongside. We have times were we just hang and discuss strategy and just chill, you miss out on part of the Nations Experience if you don't at least come on a bit.