PokeNations:The Problem with Lack of Inclusion, Potential Abuse

[Gaunt]

I'm sorry Gaunt, but Ruin usually decides the day the Roster goes up and we pick who is on the server, that way we know for sure they will be there. If you want to get in on a fight just get on the server or at least PM Equ or something. If you at least do that I am sure He will consider you ((and I am pretty sure you will get picked, we can't be too overly choosy, we have a small pool of people.)). Otherwise how are we to know you are still actually going to participate? ((also, if you come on the server just hang in the Ruin Room and close the Grand Hall a.k.a main. we don't get trolls in the back channel, that shouldn't be an issue.))

It isn't so much that you need to tell your Leader you are ready or what not, we just need to know you are going to be there, or are still interested. Somebody we haven't seen hide nor hair of on the server doesn't exactly scream "I want to play guys.". I will make sure you don't get looked over next week, so I got your back man, but promise that you will at least make an effort to get on the server ((or at a minimum, talk with Equ our leader.)), that way the other Ruin members know you want to be a part of this and that you are interested in what is going on. Nations isn't only a battling thing, Nations are kinda groups of Friends, and we in Ruin ((or at least me)), believe that we should hang on the servers and get to know each other at least a little that way we know who we fight alongside. We have times were we just hang and discuss strategy and just chill, you miss out on part of the Nations Experience if you don't at least come on a bit.

Understood i will contact Equ before the end of the week, as for the chat thing i already said that i really don't like it so i'll log in only for the fight.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

ALrighty up to you, please do talk with Equ, if he doesn't see the pm perchance I will remind him. However, it is up to you to get your match done. Glad I could get that solved, I wish you luck with your battles good sir.

[Tempest]

You can always just join the server and then quit out of main and stay in your nations channel. Main is really the only channel where that shit happens.

[Joker]

I agree with this post so much it isn't even funny, I used to be part of the volcanic nation but after being on the roster for the second time in the 3rd week and seeing that we had the exact same competitors every damn time i quit because i found it completely unfair. I get how people want to win but if you only ever let the best compete then that ruins all the fun.

Stop playing the victim. That week you were subbed in for Ikaru(also his first time) and Vex was the ONLY member to show up again. It was the first time for the rest of us. Week 3 was my second, and it was also Tao's second. Silver had her first battle in nations that week, as did KingKlay. Vex returned again. So really, Vex is the only person that was overused. Where are you getting the same people? I'd say it balanced out pretty well considering what we have to work with. You left after week 3(hurting us even more as far as active members go). Honestly, had you stuck around you probably would have been on the roster for week 4.

Anyway, I like the topic and I agree with most of it. Hopefully in the future we have less inactive people.

[Chase]

Wow, I appreciate the input everyone. This, so far has been a fantastic way to open the discussion. Not too much flaming and the topic wasn't derailed. This seems to be working out. I want to remind everyone that if you have a problem concerning roster management and inclusion of all of your team, from finding missing members to needing new members etc, or if you notice something that is remotely related to the topic of inclusion in general. DO discuss it here.

Working backwards....

@ Renzo - While I don't think Volcanic should take any heat for past roster issues at all (hiccups are to be expected, the project is still in it's infancy), I think any time a Nation member is disgruntled enough to be run out of the nation, it -should- speak volumes. I don't see how he's playing the victim at all, but rather that he was uninformed of the situation at hand. If he knew he was going to be placed in a roster so often because of lack of options, and it was addressed clearly (and mind you, politely), perhaps he wouldn't have bolted on you guys in the first place.

@ Gaunt - THANK YOU for coming around and reading this. If you happen to know any other confused nations members that may or may not know they are missing out due to uninformed inactivity, PLEASE FILL THEM IN OR DIRECT THEM TO THIS THREAD. It should be known that you not knowing what to do after signing up was NOT your fault, as the entire operation from there on out worked on a mere assumption instead of seamlessly making all competitors aware of what they needed to do from that signing up onward. This is where registration may need to be reformed and moderated more closely, so you stepping up and admitting a lack of knowledge is indeed helpful, and noted. If anyone is willing to allow me the opportunity to confirm the ability of potential nation members from here on out, I can help confirm potential members.

@ Nation Leaders that shared their roster filling methods or experiences - Thank you all very much. I now have a better understanding of having a small pool to work with and the gravity Reason #1 has effected your tasks. Your experiences also give me a better understanding of how your job works. I hope we can continue working together to bring in new members, inform them, and make our nations able to fill their slots.

@ Sir Bagel - Thank you for stopping by and voicing your experience. I for one, feel that your information is valid and deserves the same grain of salt those complaining about Reasoning #1 will receive, because it was a personal experience that caused you to leave. I don't think you were victimized, per se, but you were not informed of the difficulty your Nation Leader was facing as a result of R1 and therefore were thrust into action in a surprisingly short amount of time since you last battled, without understanding why. I encourage you to rejoin your nation, make your peace, and continue to aid in Volcanic's push for victory. (which all nations DO desire. The point of this thread is that overall enjoyment by everyone and fairness are more important than getting the "w")

[Joker]

He didn't leave because he was in the roster too often, he left because he wasn't(even though he was in it twice, subs still count, and he did get to battle. Which is all that matters in the grand scheme of things). We did explain things to him countless times, yet he still complained about not being on the "main" roster.

[Chase]

That's something that should be discussed in whole as a community. When you stick someone in an ALTERNATE slot, sure, they may get lucky and be subbed in, as Bagel was, but the potential is there for the alternate slots to work like a shelf, and that's without any kind of shady business going on above in the actual starting roster.

Personally, I don't think you can definitively say an alternate slot is a roster slot UNLESS you know for sure that person can't make it. In Bagel's case, he did make it...

It wouldn't hurt to treat a guy like he's a person, regardless of how much said person is difficult to talk to.

[Equilim]

I'm going to throw in my 2cents since, even though you said this wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I feel as though I'm the main person everyone is looking at.

As it goes I have usually 6-8 players AT MOST to pick from. The weekly roster is only 7 people so as such my roster will almost ALWAYS look the same until i get more players. The main problem is a lot of new players sign up who come once if that and never show up. You can't look at the total number of players on a nation and say "Oh why can't you guys switch people around more like Apophyll does?". It's simply not an option. And when you add in the fact that I have so few players to pick from, as well as the fact that many players just don't want to be on the roster that week for whatever reason, of course I can't mix up players. However, except for Gaunt, no one in Ruin has complained about the way I make my roster.

As for you Gaunt, I'm sorry I have no included you in. I don't see forum activity so I can't regularly check here to see if you're active. As you've already said, you're not active on the server so for all I know, you might just not be interested in Nations or busy. If you stop by and talk to me then I have no problem putting you on the roster. Roo has given me 2 extra players recently and I immediately put them both on. If my nation members have a problem with me putting Kam on every week, then they need only voice it to me and I'll happily not put him in. (unless Kam himself complains, then i don't care)

While I'm on the subject, I understand that this is a community thing, but in the end this is a competition. I will use my best player when I see the need for it. But if I were to have 7 members come to me and want to be put on that week's roster, I would 100% place them. I just don't have them.

If anyone has complaints please, don't hesitate to bring them up. When/if things change, I hope to have a more diverse roster.

[Rosesong]

May I suggest a fix for those that don't have players? I know I'm not leader of Apophyll, but what I did and still do is message every member of the nation and get their Skype, which we use as an alternative to the server in terms of keeping up with each other. On Skype are almost all the Apophyll members sans a couple, so perhaps it could work for others?

Basically I welcome them to the nation, letting them know they've been sorted, ask that they join us in our PO backchannel, and give me their Skype so that I can put them in contact with the rest of the nation. It works really well.

[Chase]

Well, Equi, you can look at my thread in two different ways.

1. I'm calling out EVERYONE, because all nations have some degree of limitations and at some point are guilty of using people multiple weeks to some extent OR

2. I'm calling out nobody and calling attention to a problem that Nations is suffering from, but from all angles.

I like to think my intentions represent the latter, because I don't want this thread to be a royal public shaming area. That's not going to help Nations improve, it's not going to garner support from those that ARE showing up and representing their nation either on their rosters or behind the scenes, and it's not going to solve the issue at hand.

I don't have to tell you that you aren't the main person that would be targeted, as several other Nation leaders have come up and spoken their peace thinking that if I did have a target, that it would have been them. I just want everyone to get their shot, and I want Nations to grow (-which in turn, would fix your issues with having a very small pool of people to choose from.)

My biggest concern is that right now, the numbers don't match up with the participation, and, as evidenced by Gaunt, there's MULTIPLE reasons behind it. Some of which, are not on the fault of no-shows. Are no-shows the biggest issue as of right now? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean you should make the assumption that they really don't want to participate. For that reason, Rose exemplified a brilliant way to connect with distant Nation members, and I feel that before we start trimming down rosters, that we should reach out to them first.

This is Pokemon, a game that everyone should have the right to enjoy, not a sport that should encourage competition within the team for 'playing time.'

[Chase]

Even though I for one will ALWAYS disagree about doing something roster related that involves a battlers skill level as a means to try and achieve a win, I can't blame anyone for wanting to act in such a manner.

However, if you want a complaint, I'll serve you one that every time I've been put on a roster, I've had to swallow my pride, make my team, and get over it, because the match-ups are the most stable, least suspicious part of this competition.

My first opponent was your aforementioned Kamina, Equi, in week 3. Again, as you've already admitted yourself, you have put Kam in as a starter every single week.

I -already- know that you were limited in options, but when Roo gave you two people, Why was Kam not subbed out for one of them? The guy's won a match every week for this contest's existence, don't you think he -DESERVES- a break for a week?

That's where someone like me can come in and make the claim that you leave Kam in, first and foremost, EVEN WHEN GIVEN the opportunity to sub him out, in order to increase your chances of winning. You're the nation leader. You don't have to ask Kam's permission to put him on the bench. I promise.

...I don't have sour grapes. Kam beat me, and broke no rules in doing so, but if we're going to improve Nations as a whole, we have to make improvements to how we run things so that it's not only all inclusive, but as fair as possible. Gaming the system makes the competition not a friendly one, and I can assure, there's no material prize at the end, as far as any of us know.

Anyways, refute that one. There's your argument.

[Equilim]

.

I -already- know that you were limited in options, but when Roo gave you two people, Why was Kam not subbed out for one of them? The guy's won a match every week for this contest's existence, don't you think he -DESERVES- a break for a week?

That's where someone like me can come in and make the claim that you leave Kam in, first and foremost, EVEN WHEN GIVEN the opportunity to sub him out, in order to increase your chances of winning. You're the nation leader. You don't have to ask Kam's permission to put him on the bench. I promise.

My options for players are as followed.

Myself, Kam, Fezz, Abbey, Mik, rupe(maybe), Momo, Misora. That is 8 players and I was only JUST given 2 of them. The two options I was given were on the main roster this week right away. I did not sub out Kam for them as they were put on the roster along side him. Fezz was busy so as you can see I played the only 7 players I had available. As you can see that is an extremely small amount of players to choose from. I also have a small amount of people such as Huk who is almost ALWAYS too busy to participate. Or players like 2to who has said that they do not wish to play during certain weeks (though if either wants to play he need only ask).

My skype is known by all of the active Ruin members as well as it being in the Ruin topic. If I have not seen someone on the server or in the Ruin channel in 5 weeks, I am simply not putting them on. If I were to make random assumptions to players being available, I might have an entire weeks roster of no shows. Asking me to do so is just foolish. Maybe you don't see it being in apophyll but when i have to practically BEG some people to participate in an event even though they're busy, there's nothing I can do. If you believe you can make a better roster for Ruin by all means, feel free to come to me with one and I'll explain exactly why I can not use it.