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  • Behold, one and all! The greatest Tournament in the history of Pokemon!


    Marcello

    Hello, dear reader! Many of you may recall me as the guy that used to write both short, cryptic, exceedingly dumb devblog posts AND long, dramatic, still exceedingly dumb devblog posts!

     

    But alas, I have not done so in a while, especially the latter. Indeed, Cass has taken the torch from me in hilarious yet informative devblog content (hi cass ur gr8 I enjoy all ur posts), where have I been?

     

    Well, I would love to tell you all that I have been quietly biding my time. Waiting. Working on my Magnum Opus of a devblog post for months turning into years, wanting to wow you all.

    That's entirely not what happened it's just most of what I've worked on is either not interesting enough for a post, or too spoilery for one. But still, we'll just pretend that's what's been happening.

     

    ANYWAY! We are not here to talk about me, oh no. We are here to talk about the Grandest of Events. A Tournament like no other. Something so Amazing you'll hardly believe your eyes!

     

    That's right. Today's devblog post, after much waiting and anticipation, is about...

     

    The One.

    The Only.

     

    ...

     

    not THE LABRADORRA GRAND TOURNAMENT OF B00TY!!!

    (Seriously guys we posted about that on April Fools two and a half years ago, I don't think it needs more followup than that.)

     

    "Wait, if it's not that... OMG! Are you talking about some kind of actual tournament you're running for us, the loyal fanbase of Reborn?" - I hear you ask?


    Also no. And come on guys stop interrupting me I'm trying to be dramatic.

     

    To explain what this post is truly about, we have to rewind back a bit. You see, as many of you may be aware from other devblog posts, the team (especially Cass and Perry I appreciate you both very much!) have been putting huge amounts of work in optimising a lot of our code, and one part of that was a lot of structural changes to AI to get everything in top working condition for E19. And that has been going wonderfully! But it comes with a problem.

     

    How do you test such changes? There are so many ways the AI could go wrong, and the devs can only try so many things to try and see if it works.

    Well, Perry had a simple yet brilliant answer to this - Whipping up some code that can make the AI trainers fight eachother for testing purposes. That way we can run a bunch of battles, look over the debuglogs, single out any dumb choices the AI made and fix those! So much more efficient than just hoping one of us stumbles on the AI doing something weird when we play.

     

    But, let me explain how Perry and I are different people. You see, Perry is... I think the technical, scientific term is 'Productive'. This was a brilliant idea that solved a big testing issue!

    But me? When I saw this, I knew that I could take this innovation and instead use it as an excuse to be deeply unproductive. As is my style, by taking it and using it to do something fun and interesting but also not particularly useful!

     

    SoanywayImadeeverysingleAItrainerfighteveryotherAItrainer.

     

    That's right. The Tournament in question was an impromptu Round Robin where every single trainer in the game battled every other one!

    No I haven't seen that Elo World youtube video where someone did this for Pokemon Red & Blue I have no idea what you're talking about all my ideas are entirely original.

     

    So buckle up! This is gonna be a fun and goofy ride but there's also gonna be probably more statistics and spreadsheets than you expect!!!

     

     

    Now, to begin, lets explain the setup. We did three runs of this tournament, in three distinct formats (although the third is special for reasons that will be apparent). In ALL formats, all pokemon were set to Level 100, although movesets were retained. This specifically detriments that one random FEAR trainer in the Desert so he underperformed compared to how he should've, but also fuck that guy that's what he gets for running FEAR.

     

    1) Everybody battles Everybody else in a Single Battle with NO Field.

    2) Everybody battles Everybody else in a Double Battle with NO Field.

    3) League Trainers only (That is: Gym Leaders, Elite 4 Members, & the Champion) fights Everybody but specifically on their preferred format (i.e. Julia fights everybody on Electric Terrain Single Battle, Shelly fights everybody on Forest Field Double Battle, you get the idea.)

     

    The first was just the initial idea and attempt at this, just to see what happens. The second was an extension when I remembered double battles exist. And the third was very much more an interest piece of like 'Hey, lets see how the leaders perform in their best case scenario' because I thought it would be super interesting to compare and see how that looks!

     

    Now, a few methodological points for anybody that is interested: I know I really should have run all of these two or three times each because there's rng involved and stuff, but also everybody fighting everybody else is in the ballpark of a million battles which, surprise surprise, actually takes quite a while to run! So you'll have to deal with the fact these were only run once so, as in any good pokemon tournament, there may have been some RNG-caused upsets!

     

    Second, outside of some specifically interesting cases, I will be talking in terms of a percentage winrate instead of number of wins just because these tests were done as we were working on some postgame trainers so there were slightly different numbers of trainers in each format, but not enough that I feel like it skews the results enough to rerun things!

     

    And that's that! We ran this, it spat out the result of every single fight, then I spent a few weeks messing around in a very large spreadsheet and got the data organised nicely and analysed!

     

    So, some last bits of intro logistics to this concept and then I can finally like, actually start the main content of this post! I will be splitting this into two main sections. In Part One I'll talk about the general results, specifically in formats 1) and 2), pointing out anything notable or relevant in the top 10, 50 or 100 that I think stands out! In Part Two, I'll focus in specifically on the Gym Leaders and talk more in depth about their performance in all three formats, and give some analysis about what that means about their performance in general!

     

    And also, you should probably familiarize yourself with two shorthands I am going to be using:

     

    Illegal - This should be self explanatory. A trainer has an illegal team if it has something it would be impossible for the player to get. Things like illegal EVs via PULSE2, PULSE mons generally, shenanigans with illegal movesets, and just the complete and utter fuckery we have in store for you with the top secret postgame Dev fights because we made the game and we don't have to follow the rules.

     

    Bullshit - A trainer's team is Bullshit if it is bullshit. Like, sure, running 6 Psychic Type Legendaries (because fuck there are so many of those) with a Tapu Lele lead that all have optimised statspreads and movesets designed specifically to fuck you up on Psychic Terrain is technically legal and the player could also do that, but the AI doing it is still bullshit.

     

    These shorthands will be useful particularly in Part One of the post because surprise surprise the top 100 trainers in Formats 1 & 2 are pretty strongly dominated by things that are Illegal or Bullshit (although maybe not as much so as you'd think!)

     

    So, without further ado...

     

    Part One: Fieldless

     

    So, lets talk about Singles first. 6 of the top 10 are dev fights. (Including me! Hell yeah. 7th place with a 97% winrate. Take that 8th place Cass, with your paltry also 97% winrate (but hers is a lower 97% I won like 2 more fights than her get DUNKED ON Cass).

     

    In fact, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 8th & 10th places are all dev fights. Shoutout to former dev Lia in the #1 spot showcasing her fight's utter shenanigans with a 99% Winrate (also, spoilers, the top 50 looks totally different for doubles but she STILL took #1 there too, albeit with a slightly lower winrate. The rest of us devs need to step our game up, clearly).

     

    Most of the remaining spots in the top 10 aren't too notable. There's a lot of Bullshit. Heck, the specific team I used as the example to define Bullshit is in there.

    Oh, and Lin is in there too somewhere but don't worry about that.

    What I want to talk about is 3rd place. Because, somehow, despite all the Illegal and/or Bullshit fights we threw into postgame, 3rd place is something that takes place in the Main Story. In E19, in fact.

     

    Lets talk a little bit about PULSE-Clawitzer.

    Zoidberg.jpg.6c3a90c141cd1a58c5336b443050ee75.jpg

    This is PULSE-Clawitzer. You fight them in E19. Apparently it's pretty hard because the fight has a 98% winrate here, which is higher than every single other trainer except the two most difficult dev fights. So, y'know, good luck with that.

     

    On the bright side, E19 isn't all bad. You also fight PULSE-Mr Mime and that fight is allllllllll the way down at 552nd place with a paltry 39% winrate (as a point of comparison that's pretty close to like... Julia. The very first gym leader with a team of NFE mons with terrible statspreads and movesets. Sure, it was hard like an hour into the game, but...) So at least you know that when you play E19 you'll just be able to relax and that fight won't cause any problems at all! ^~^

     

    The rest of the top 50 is about what you'd expect. Dev fights, postgame bullshit, some illegal shenanigans. A few victory road battles made it in which is neat!

     

    Also lets all give a round of applause to Baby's First Illegal team which is only really barely Illegal, which is the E18 fight against Solaris in Agate City, with the PULSE2 on his Garchomp - You'd hope he performed well given Singles with No Field is the format he actually fights on, and he doesn't disappoint, all the way up at 32nd place, the highest ranking trainer that is already in the current version of the game!

     

    But still. Dev fights are very illegal. There's a lot of postgame bullshit here. Obviously PULSE-Clawitzer is illegal. Everything in the top 50 is Illegal or Bullshit or both.

     

    Well, except for one trainer. The highest ranking 'Fair' (which I use as shorthand to mean neither Bullshit nor Illegal) trainer managed to make it to 46th place. This is pretty impressive - the next two Fair trainers aren't until 65th & 78th place.

     

    With a 92% winrate in Fieldless Singles? I hope you're all ready for the gym battle against Saphira in E19!!!! Because she utterly destroyed the competition, miles ahead of the next highest winrate gym leader (surprisingly given it's singles and without a field, it's still Hardy at 85%!), and she even managed to beat the entire Elite 4 on winrate as well!

     

    But we can talk more about that in Part Two.

     

    Before that, though, lets look at how things are different in Fieldless Doubles!

     

    Dev Team Lia still dominates at first place; her team is too good. The top 10 is once again 6 devs, although not the same 6 as before. (Alas I am the one that has been dunked on, in doubles I fell all the way down to 20th place and Cass kicked my butt and is now all the way up at 5th place)

     

    Indeed, this theme is going to be apparent - While Doubles-centric teams can perform reasonably well still on Singles, a lot of the big hitters from Single battles seriously struggled battling in doubles. PULSE-Clawitzer fell all the way down to 21st place (below me! And I'm terrible at pokemon! Git Gud Clawitzer). PULSE-Mr Mime did slightly better than before but ultimately still very badly at 446th place.

     

    Saphira really suffered hard though. She lost her spot as the highest winrate Fair trainer. That was taken by some randome generic Victory Road fight which isn't even a double battle and, honestly, I love that. This fact might be my favourite thing in E19, especially because that trainer jumped up like 50 places in the leaderboard from Singles. You gotta appreciate the hustle.

     

    But alas, Saphira's bad day doesn't end there, oh no. She not only lost her spot as the best Fair trainer, in doubles she didn't even manage to be the best Gym Leader - Taking to the format like a fish to water, she was beaten handily by Hardy and, although by a slimmer margin, also by Adrienn!

     

    Indeed, looking at gym leaders it is clear just how much harder doubles is if you don't have a team built for it. After those top three, the next highest ranking gym leaders are Charlotte & Radomus, beating the fights that came much later than them in game by merit of being built for the field. Even Aya did really well despite being earlier game because of her doubles team. As for the reamining Doubles leaders, Shelly still struggled because of how early on her fight is, and lets just not talk about Amaria until later because yikes.

    Lin still comfortably sits in the top 20 but like, don't worry about it.

     

    But, speaking of later, I think it's time to get into the reeeeaaaal fun. Have you ever wondered how well balanced the Gym Leaders are? Ever wondered which ones rely on their field most, and which ones least? Which ones are unusually strong or weak for their point in the game? Or do you just want to know how scared you should be of what's coming in E19? Well, then do I have the devblog post for you!

     

    It's this one. This is the post. We're moving to part two now.

     

    Part Two: League Members

     

    So, before we begin, lets talk about the elephant in the room. You are going to notice a distinct lack of Corey and Kiki in the upcoming analysis.

     

    Did I forget to run their fights? Yes.

    Did we change the earlygame story a bit for E19 so they are no longer Gym Leaders because we all decided we really didn't like the contrived excuses to not give you a badge? Also yes.

     

    With that cleared up, lets start from the top! There is going to be A LotTM here so I will be putting the individual analysis of each leader in spoiler tags, handily labelling them as we go along! Although this is just so this post is slightly easier to scroll through and look back over I will be writing all of these assuming you've read them all in order.

     

     

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    Elite Four

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    And with that, my dear readers, this most gargantuan of devblog posts comes to a close. I wish you all a fond farewell, and hope you are-

     

    What's that, you say? I missed someone?

    I have no idea what you're talking about. I already told you why we aren't including Corey and Kiki. So who else could you possibly-

     

    Ah, right. I mean, I told you not to think about it but, I guess. It's not a big deal or anything but sure, whatever.

     

     

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    Ok imma say it, this might be the coolest dev blog post ever.

     

     

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    ps I absolutely refuse to give up on the tournament of b00ty, I know it will happen

     

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    Lin 100% win rate

    Levitate double speed pulse2 hydreigon x1.5 boost dark pulse x1.5 boost flash cannon x2 boost draco meteor x4 boost Black Hole Eclipse 

     

    042FF4BB-5D85-433A-8124-20D748B19EC6.gif.e8369692ee0e91b52fd0fa0270ace538.gif

     

    also did she get a redesign? The sprite looks different 

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    I just undestand one thing right now
    Since Meteor take under their managment that final mountain
    I guess Lin now a champion. And meanwhile team meteor tryes to take Elite 4 out.
    Oh boy, episode 19 gonna be real madness

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    Oh, THE LABRADORRA GRAND TOURNAMENT OF B00TY battle royal is neat. Hype train speeds up.

    Well, since we don`t know (or know?) Lin`s team, but field boosts both of them, who was the winner of the battle between Lin and Saphira? If it`s possible to spoiler lol

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    I cackled maniacally while reading this post. 

    I think I need help. 

     

    Also "Raddledict Cumbomus" may have scooped me (sort of, in a manner of speaking, because the devs are, well, the devs). As if he was psychic or something.  

     

    (I also need help about productivity but I suspect that maybe I shouldn't ask you)

     

    Anyway, thank you for this very interesting (and hilarious at least to me) post. 

     

    @Dark_mist-X Marcello wrote in the first comment that 

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    Sounds like Lin is going to be a totally fair and balanced™ fight

    Now I really want to know what team that random victory road trainer is running that they managed to perform that well.

     

    Can you make the AI fight the Glass Factory gauntlet? Personally I found that one to be by far the hardest bit of the game so far so it'd be interesting to see how each trainer does when faced with what we players have to go through.

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    Ah another post from the dev team, what else do you have store for us.  Those rates about the gym leaders look very interesting, but I noticed that in the E4 rates two of them are identical.

     

    Also I liked Lin and Saphira's new sprites, as they look cool in those styles. Hmm I can wait to enter the tournament as well, but also the final showdown in Labradorra City and in Charous Mountain. Better hurry now

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    • Developers
      On 11/3/2021 at 1:05 PM, Evi Crystal said:

    Ah another post from the dev team, what else do you have store for us.  Those rates about the gym leaders look very interesting, but I noticed that in the E4 rates two of them are identical.

     

    Also I liked Lin and Saphira's new sprites, as they look cool in those styles. Hmm I can wait to enter the tournament as well, but also the final showdown in Labradorra City and in Charous Mountain. Better hurry now

    Expand  

     

    For the record, those two were not actually identical! They had a one win difference between them, but both rounded to 96.0! I tried to specifically point out all the exact ties!

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    No matter how I look at it, no gym leader gave me as much trouble as Shelly, but that's mostly due to having next to no useful pokemon at that point in the game against her. If I were to rate the 17 of them who I've fought how problematic they were for ME at that point in time it'd go something like this (from hardest to easiest):
    Shelly, Samson, Ciel, Radomus, Hardy, Titania, Amaria, Adrienn, Aya, Charlotte, Luna, Noel, Terra, Florinia, Serra, Julia, Shade

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      On 11/3/2021 at 11:54 AM, Mindlack said:

    I cackled maniacally while reading this post. 

    I think I need help. 

     

    Also "Raddledict Cumbomus" may have scooped me (sort of, in a manner of speaking, because the devs are, well, the devs). As if he was psychic or something.  

     

    (I also need help about productivity but I suspect that maybe I shouldn't ask you)

     

    Anyway, thank you for this very interesting (and hilarious at least to me) post. 

     

    @Dark_mist-X Marcello wrote in the first comment that 

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    Ah, rly, I forgot about 

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    SO THE LABRADORRA GRAND TOURNAMENT OF B00TY WAS A LIE?! Plz man dont do that to my heart! I was sure i was gonna see some b00ty action there! lol

     

    Jokes aside, im impressed of how much work and effort you guys are putting. And seeing those numbers make me feel even more hyped to play this masterpiece once its done.

     

    EXCELLENT JOB GUYS! THE HYPE TRAIN IS REEEEEEEEAAAAAAAL!

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    Oh my goodness nice to have some stuff confirmed or revealed. I don't care that they are illegal, Dev fights will be cool for instance. Also, we know there will be illegal stuff in the postgame, and not before which is great, and that we should be scared of Saphira (who most likely uses singles btw). I find it incredibly funny how Pulse Mr. Mime underperformed despite Marcello claiming that despite knowing how to fight it, he "can do fuck all against this thing", and I'm horrified of Pulse Clawitzer. And it seems we are rightfully scared of the flower garden field. I kinda hope that the bug I reported a long time ago with the stage 5 overflowing to 4 didn't get fixed, although it probably was. And also HYYYPPPPEEE.

     

    I completely didn't lie down on my bed and start crylaughing when I saw Lin's winrate, not at all.

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    • Developers
      On 11/3/2021 at 2:24 AM, Noivy said:

     

    You know you gotta make this trainer a doubles fight now.

     

    Expand  

    Sure why not, I guess we should.

     

     

      On 11/3/2021 at 6:06 AM, HelpMiiPlease said:

    Lin 100% win rate

    Levitate double speed pulse2 hydreigon x1.5 boost dark pulse x1.5 boost flash cannon x2 boost draco meteor x4 boost Black Hole Eclipse

    Expand  

    Listen, I'm not gonna say that's the exact set her Hydreigon runs. But I'm also not gonna say that's NOT the exact set her Hydreigon runs.

     

     

      On 11/3/2021 at 11:48 AM, Dark_mist-X said:

    Oh, THE LABRADORRA GRAND TOURNAMENT OF B00TY battle royal is neat. Hype train speeds up.

    Well, since we don`t know (or know?) Lin`s team, but field boosts both of them, who was the winner of the battle between Lin and Saphira? If it`s possible to spoiler lol

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    So on Lin'scorrect format, Lin beat Saphira when they fought (Because she beat nearly everyone), but on Saphira's correct format it looks like she managed to incredibly narrowly beat Lin, which is fun!

     

    Unfortunately you fight them both on their respective correct formats, so they're at their best. Have fun with that!

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    Oh god I didn't want to click the bottom one because I knew exactly what it was gonna say, but I just had to see.

     

    Also I'm a little sad to hear that Corey and Kiki won't be gym leaders anymore (especially Corey since being a new leader is a big part of Aya's character, I can see how you can make it work for Kiki pretty well) but I'm sure you guys will make it all work nicely and make sense for the story.

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    >trainer149.png.e8e1939bd8c628cac48d768f7637dae5.pngOn correct format Lin had a 100% winrate, but like, don't worry about it!

     

    I worry. I worry Greatly. though i am really looking forward to challenge all the postgame trainers...

     

    also, as someone who loves analysis, this is like a dream come true. I wish I could have contributed to this...

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    Well, Lin is scaring me already, and I should probably go back and grind rare candies in my two Reborn save files (one for Zekrom, one for Reshiram).

    And Laura's super reliant on her field, I see - well, grass types are kind of sad on their own. Glad to see she's doing well! Even if I am now dreading fighting her. So is Amaria - makes sense, really. She used a lot of underpowered mons on her field, frankly/lower-tier pokemon. So take away that advantage and she's sunk.

     

    Luna did better than I thought she would, though! Same with Radomus and Samson. And Noel didn't do as well - but at the same time, he's really consistent.

    And a thought - the reason that people probably see things as easier later in the game is because you have ways to counter the leaders by now, probably. It's likely sunken in that a fair fight, on the Leader's turf, is just going to end in disaster.

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    So lessons taken out of this:

     

    1) My weakness to flying monotypes is legit. Ciel was by far the hardest for me in every run of the game, and even when playing Blaze Black 2 Skyla was the hardest for me to beat. Given Ciel's midling rank, I am definitely flying-impaired.

     

    2) The opposite is true of fighting types. Samson was a walk in the park for me despite the fact that I did not change the field in that battle, and I nearly always do.

     

    3) The less a boss relies on their terrain, the more I struggle against them. Meaning my strategy of carrying my preferred field(s) with me and setting them up behind screens is valid, and likely to be even more valid come E19. I better start grinding that Clafable to set up gravity to get rid of that New World field, so that I may set my own field up then.

     

    ...

     

    HAH!

     

    Don't worry about Lin, he says.

     

    Dear devs, this game has been a test of character.

     

    Trust me, I've found it easier to deal with job rejections after getting my ass handed to me by Ciel 60 times in a row, after all the grinding, and learning how to IV breed, and not being able to even set up a field after carefully crafting the "winning" strategy throughout the 60 hours I played the game, and ended up having to resort spamming ultra potions till that damned Togekiss ran out of PPs. Aye, I lost that battle, and then bought a win. And 5 minutes after that humiliation, Inner Focus Crobat occurred to me. And that built character. Perseverance and humility. You made me zen, you bastards.

     

    Thank you.

     

    Now f*ck off.

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      On 11/3/2021 at 11:29 PM, Fiasom said:

    Don't worry about Lin, he says.

     

    Dear devs, this game has been a test of character.

     

    Trust me, I've found it easier to deal with job rejections after getting my ass handed to me by Ciel 60 times in a row, after all the grinding, and learning how to IV breed, and not being able to even set up a field after carefully crafting the "winning" strategy throughout the 60 hours I played the game, and ended up having to resort spamming ultra potions till that damned Togekiss ran out of PPs. Aye, I lost that battle, and then bought a win. And 5 minutes after that humiliation, Inner Focus Crobat occurred to me. And that built character. Perseverance and humility. You made zen, you bastards.

     

    Thank you.

     

    Now f*ck off.

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    #justrebornthings

    ...but in all seriousness i feel your pain so much. i struggled with serra so bad cause i couldn't break her field and barely managed to scrape by it.

     

    only to find that i had a jaw fossil in my bag, which would have given me a tyrantrum with access to stealth rocks and EQ with a couple rare candies (with common candies to bring it back to level cap).

     

    also found a synthetic seed, and in the mirror field, the seed boosts evasion by two stages.

     

    the amount of learning i got from that was life-changing.

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    I'm not afraid of a 100% win rate, trainer. Honestly, hell is she challenging better for me. However, I realize need to change my team, build around Blazekin as well as complemented the move set around her mons.

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      On 11/4/2021 at 3:46 AM, CrystalStar said:

    Guys remember, Marcello said that Lin had a 99.7% win rate which he rounded so we still have a 0.3% (it's not a lot but it is something) chance of actually winning

     

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    Not quite. The statistic means that if you randomly choose the team of any enemy you have to fight at some point in the game, and then you play like the AI the Lin fight on Lin’s terms, you have a ~0.3% chance to win (although this looks like it could be sensitive to RNG). 
     

    But apparently players are expected to do better than the AI and they can bring their own teams. So that statistic does not really apply. 
     

     

    Speaking of analysis, here’s a question I was wondering about: are the trainers that beat the “best Leaders/E4 on their fields” the same each time or do they change significantly (or are there too little of them to actually change)? 

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      On 11/3/2021 at 1:07 AM, Marcello said:

    Did we change the earlygame story a bit for E19 so they are no longer Gym Leaders because we all decided we really didn't like the contrived excuses to not give you a badge? Also yes.

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    I wonder how the storyline will be changed regarding this, e.g. Corey's [spoiler], Aya's introduction and Kiki.

      On 11/3/2021 at 1:07 AM, Marcello said:

    Adrienn is powerful. Xe doesn't always come to mind as one of the game's most difficult gym leaders,

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    I actually found xem to be the 2nd hardest out of all of them when I played 3 years ago. After many dozens of failed attempts with my main team (didn't have a good counter to Fairy types), I caught the event Beldum at Lv1 and trained it up all the way to a Lv80 Metagross just so I could beat xem. My top 3 hardest gym leaders were Shelly/Adrienn/Charlotte or maybe Titania. Luna was the easiest because my strong Infernape was good against her (still took 3 attempts). I found the gauntlets at Fiore Mansion and the Glass Workstation to be the hardest battles overall.

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      On 11/3/2021 at 6:26 PM, Rendolf said:

    Oh god I didn't want to click the bottom one because I knew exactly what it was gonna say, but I just had to see.

     

    Also I'm a little sad to hear that Corey and Kiki won't be gym leaders anymore (especially Corey since being a new leader is a big part of Aya's character, I can see how you can make it work for Kiki pretty well) but I'm sure you guys will make it all work nicely and make sense for the story.

    Expand  

    Following up on my other comment, I agree on Kiki, her role in the story as Sensei isn't really connected to her being a Gym Leader, they could even keep the battle with her as a requirement for the TM without it being a Gym battle. Samson's story isn't introduced until much later, and his vague background wouldn't really be affected by retconning him as having been part of Agate Circus from the beginning, instead of only having joined after Kiki's [spoiler]. As for Corey, story wise, I think it would take some more major changes to retcon him out of being a Gym Leader canonically. I think a much simpler and more consistent solution would be to have him still be a Gym Leader canonically, but have him refuse/not battle the player before [redacted]. Eliminating the battle with him would get rid of having to explain away not getting the badge without significantly affecting his or Aya's story otherwise. They could even keep the gym puzzle and sequence, and just have him ask you to follow him to the bridge when you get to him, without you battling him first.

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      On 11/4/2021 at 11:34 AM, Shadow Angel said:

    As for Corey, story wise, I think it would take some more major changes to retcon him out of being a Gym Leader canonically. I think a much simpler and more consistent solution would be to have him still be a Gym Leader canonically, but have him refuse/not battle the player before [redacted]. Eliminating the battle with him would get rid of having to explain away not getting the badge without significantly affecting his or Aya's story otherwise. They could even keep the gym puzzle and sequence, and just have him ask you to follow him to the bridge when you get to him, without you battling him first.

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    I do hope that his gym battle is still gonna take place, because as far as I remember his battle is the only major one that takes place on the Corrosive / Corrosive Mist Field. My speculation is that his battle will be restyled into a Meteor boss battle at the gym, and the disgraceful uncovering will take place in the gym instead of next to the Pulse machine. The subsequent event can happen like in the original script.

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      On 11/3/2021 at 6:05 PM, Marcello said:
      On 11/3/2021 at 6:06 AM, HelpMiiPlease said:

     

    Expand  

    Listen, I'm not gonna say that's the exact set her Hydreigon runs. But I'm also not gonna say that's NOT the exact set her Hydreigon runs.

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    252 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse ((640 BP) which is x4 BP for the field boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Shuckle: 261-307 (106.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

     

    i fuckin hope that’s not the exact set her Hydreigon runs

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    That reminds me of something chasa posted earlier this year on discord only theirs list had elo ratings instead of winrate, unaltered lvls and ofc no E19 content. Iirc Solaris hit 1st place everywhere so him being in the 32nd position on this list is pretty good.

     

    Postgame consisting mostly of illegal bullshit shenanigans is everything I could've ever hoped for. Really excited to see how accurate are those juicy winrates.

     

    Ngl you got me good with Amaria. I'm a bit surprised to see Amy as the one that relies the most on her field because of how her own field can mess her up. I assume she used her stronger (megas) team variant?

     

    Also congrats to @Noivy for being the #1fairdoublebattle randome generic Victory Road trainer.

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      On 11/4/2021 at 4:50 PM, Logan_the_balalaika said:

     

    Ngl you got me good with Amaria. I'm a bit surprised to see Amy as the one that relies the most on her field because of how her own field can mess her up.

    Expand  

    There aren't that many electric types that get around the speed penalty from her field, and all her teams have either two electric immunities or one immunity and two electric-neutral mons, so given that the NPC teams aren't directly targeting her weaknesses and the AI probably doesn't do as much as a player would to preserve counters when they do exist, the overall downside of her field is pretty small.  On the other hand, big speed and damage buffs + conditionally shutting down most physical attackers is a ton of upside, and the benefits affect a lot more teams than the weaknesses do.

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    I assumed at first that the Double Battle stats would be slightly inflated for significant trainers because they'd have a relative advantage against all the fights with only 1 Pokemon, but I guess that wouldn't be true because a) they should generally already beat all the regular trainers with one mon if everything's set to 100 and b) there just aren't very many illegal/bullshit fights with only one Pokemon and often the whole point of them is that they have a strategy that either steamrolls you or gets steamrolled

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    ......Noel is one of the 'most universally experienced difficulty spikes in the game'? I don't think he's ever beaten me, or even come particularly close...he fights on a field that isn't particularly advantageous to his team, and normal types are kinda easy to dunk on.

    This isn't meant to be a #HumbleBrag or something, to be clear, because Marcello also says he has always found Aya really easy and she fucking DESTROYS me. It's interesting how different people's experiences can be!

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      On 11/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, HelpMiiPlease said:


    252 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse ((640 BP) which is x4 BP for the field boost) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Shuckle: 261-307 (106.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

     

    i fuckin hope that’s not the exact set her Hydreigon runs

    Expand  

    252 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (640 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Blissey: 396-466 (55.4 - 65.2%)

     

    There's still hope. Fickle hope, but still. Hope you like tossing.

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      On 11/4/2021 at 12:20 PM, nguyengiangoc said:

    I do hope that his gym battle is still gonna take place, because as far as I remember his battle is the only major one that takes place on the Corrosive / Corrosive Mist Field. My speculation is that his battle will be restyled into a Meteor boss battle at the gym, and the disgraceful uncovering will take place in the gym instead of next to the Pulse machine. The subsequent event can happen like in the original script.

    Expand  

    Yeah I saw someone on the Discord suggest to still have the battle, and just have it not as a gym battle. That would make a lot of sense

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      On 11/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, laggless01 said:

    252 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (640 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Blissey: 396-466 (55.4 - 65.2%)

     

    There's still hope. Fickle hope, but still. Hope you like tossing.

    Expand  


    252 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (640 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 592-697 (82.9 - 97.6%) Hey you can tank it consistently  even without AV…

     

     unless it’s +spatk then 252+ SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (640 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 649-765 (90.8 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO. But chansey doesn’t even need full investment to tank it 252+ SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (640 BP) vs. 116 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 568-669 (84.7 - 99.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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      On 11/5/2021 at 12:39 AM, Djiini said:

    ......Noel is one of the 'most universally experienced difficulty spikes in the game'? I don't think he's ever beaten me, or even come particularly close...he fights on a field that isn't particularly advantageous to his team, and normal types are kinda easy to dunk on.

    This isn't meant to be a #HumbleBrag or something, to be clear, because Marcello also says he has always found Aya really easy and she fucking DESTROYS me. It's interesting how different people's experiences can be!

    Expand  

     

    I completely understands what you mean with that. Honestly, i havent had too much trouble with Noel, mostly because of his 'all around team', but do you know with whom did i have a LOT of trouble? Charlotte and Amaria. These 2 gave me such a trouble! Mostly because im more into physical attacker (Amaria made me rethink that) and specially Charlotte with her multi hitting moves. So yeah, its more related to how do they exploit your team weaknessess.

     

    Still, i cant wait to play it from scratch all over again

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    I just wanna point out how Serra's fieldless doubles winrate is very similar to her fieldless singles, despite not being a doubles trainer, just because of the sheer power of Aurora Veil

     

    Also this is one of the best posts I've ever seen but... just out of curiosity, which were some of the coolest upsets in the tournament?

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    As someone who regularly played Reju's Intense Mode, I had the biggest smile on my face looking through this.

    Reborn's always felt not-as-severe as Intense, but I'm certainly looking forward to testing my mettle against the invincible Lin.

     

    The problem with Dark-types is the lack of immune Pokemon, of course, but... Sturdy + Metal Burst should do the job nicely enough to get rid of that nuclear bomb of a Hydreigon even if I can't figure anything else out.

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      On 11/8/2021 at 5:02 AM, Shogun said:

    so if I were to say cheese the saphira and lin fights with a destiny bond speed boost mega sharpedo, would this be a new kind of bullshit way to win these fights?

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    Lin fight probably won't be able to be cheesed that way, assuming it takes place on the new world field.  Field halves speed of grounded pokemon, so even with the +1 from speed boost, mega sharpedo is likely slower than most of Lin's team.  

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      On 11/8/2021 at 11:50 AM, R.B said:

    Lin fight probably won't be able to be cheesed that way, assuming it takes place on the new world field.  Field halves speed of grounded pokemon, so even with the +1 from speed boost, mega sharpedo is likely slower than most of Lin's team.  

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    Five Protect/Destiny Bond Speed Boost Sharpedo holding Air Balloon each. Then 1v1 whatever she sends last.

     

    If someone wants to cheese, there is always a way. Even if I'm more curious about non-cheese strategies that the community will find.

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      On 11/8/2021 at 1:45 PM, Vinc2612 said:

     

    Five Protect/Destiny Bond Speed Boost Sharpedo holding Air Balloon each. Then 1v1 whatever she sends last.

     

    If someone wants to cheese, there is always a way. Even if I'm more curious about non-cheese strategies that the community will find.

    Expand  

    In Rejuvenation V13, you can't use cheese moves like Destiny Bond in designated "boss" fights. Perhaps that could be implemented here?

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    BRO THIS IS SUPER COOL! I love seeing stuff like this. Though it does make me curious, out of the 8 ( not counting Lin with her terrifying 100% win rate ) trainers who beat Saphira, did any of them beat ALL the gym leaders and or E4? I think it would be pretty wild/poetic if Lin was the ONLY in game trainer who could actually beat the Reborn League. I'm also curious where Ame's Dev team placed in the rankings. Since Lia was #1, I'd like to think Ame was #2, but I'd still like to know if you don't mind sharing. Also I think it would be pretty cool if, after Ep19 ( so we don't get spoiled on, like, who the E4 are and whatnot ) you posted the spreadsheets, so we could see exactly who beat who. This might've been " unproductive ", but it's super fun, and it got me even more terrified hyped for Ep19. Thanks for everything and keep up the great work.

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    So, you are saying that everything up till now was just training for the bullshit battles that are to come. You are also saying that one of these bullshit battles will be near impossible to win(99.7% win rate is near impossible). This and the fact that all legends are post game makes it even harder. There was also that other post that depicted pokemon level cap over 100 and some kind of powered up trainer battles.

     

    I CAN'T WAIT, drop a like and/or comment if your excited for this new year full of more reborn.

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      On 11/3/2021 at 12:44 PM, Gummy_Dragon said:

    How hard was this Tournament to set up?

    How would Rejuvenation's leaders do?

    What if we made the Rejuvenation leaders fight the Reborn League?

    Can Saphira step on me?

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    I want to remind you that Aya is also an Aevium gym leader, and this could make Reborn Aya vs Rejuv Aya an actual thing.

     

    But seriously speaking, i always asked to my self how Venan would react to Aya and the fact that she temporaly replaced her.

    Also would be cool if we could fight Aya with Venam team, similiar to when we fight Erin with Melia's one.

     

    And can Saphira step on me too, pleeease?

    Edited by KingInfernal
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